US BARS

Came back to the game after a break to find its in pretty good balance, except for one big issue. BARS. They are way too strong for what they are, destroying all axis inf. I'm making this thread for two reasons:

1. Whats your guys opinions on bars? and how would you balance them if at all.

2. What are your recommendations for dealing with double bar death squads?

It's a great pickup item. One of the best in the game. IMO the biggest issue with it is 2x equip and the 0.7 moving accuracy modifier.

It wouldn't be so bad if axis had something of a similar strength, but because they don't they get out muscled by infantry in nearly every situation.

How would you balance it then?

I don't believe you can "balance" them, because there are too many factors to consider. Infantry DPS w/o upgrades, 5 different factions, supposidly factions being good at different parts of the game (which is horrible idea since it has never worked). What I'd do is remove brain dead modifiers from weapons. 0.7 moving accuracy modifier from the BAR, 0.8 from the G43s, etc. The more tactical decisions you need to make the more you leeway you have to make balance changes.

See while 0.8 is stupid high it's the only way ost inf can really move and fire effectively, and even then lets fave it G43's don't do what bars do, but its still probably too high.

What I'd do is remove brain dead modifiers from weapons. 0.7 moving accuracy modifier from the BAR, 0.8 from the G43s, etc. The more tactical decisions you need to make the more you leeway you have to make balance changes.

Do you really feel the BARs' moving performance is an issue though? Considering volks, for example, lose ~60% of their DPS while moving, a 50% DPS loss for moving bars isn't all that absurd. Most weapons that are intended to have good moving performance see a 40-50% DPS loss.

As for G43s, I'd argue that the tactical decision isn't in how you use G43s, but in deciding which upgrade to get. It's a choice between moving performance/close range damage and long range damage. Nerfing the moving performance of G43s to the same level as most other weapons waters down that choice to close range damage or long range damage. In my opinion, that actually removes a tactical decision and makes the dynamic between those weapon upgrades less interesting.

If they didn't nerf the BAR in the same patch they nerfed the Bren, then I think it will stay like that, unless USF gets reworked.

Bars are fine if overpowered so is stgs for 250 mp volks with field upgrade and no research for them plus never drop

volk stg44 = free to unlock, never drop, 60muni 2stg

rifleman BAR = 150mp 15fuel to unlock, can be drop, 60muni 1 BAR

BAR is not OP, OKW weabooo

Even, BAR far accuracy is so low

Just give the volks 5 Stgs instead of 2 LOL.

Just give the volks 5 Stgs instead of 2 LOL.

A soldier i cant believe you said that Kappa XD

Theyre completely fine
LMG42 is way superior
They have an unlock cost, and are tied to racks, in exchange for which they can be double equipped
Theyre on more expensive, yet barely any better infantry

volk stg44 = free to unlock, never drop, 60muni 2stg

rifleman BAR = 150mp 15fuel to unlock, can be drop, 60muni 1 BAR

BAR is not OP, OKW weabooo

Even, BAR far accuracy is so low

Because its almost as if bars do more DPS.

Some DPS numbers to put things into perspective for line inf upgrades from Cruzz's database:

Close range -

USF Riflemen BAR (60 muni each)
DPS: 13.2 / 6.5 / 4
dists: 5 / 14 / 35

Volks gren mp44, single (30 muni each)
DPS: 7.52 / 4.5 / 2.0
dists: 7 / 23 / 35

Conscript PPSH (Cost?)
DPS: 9.7 / 1.3 / 0.33
dists: 10 / 10 / 30

Gren G43 (Cost?)
DPS: 10.8 / 4.4 / 2.3
dists: 6 / 18 / 35

LMG's

Infantry Section BREN (45 muni each)
DPS: 4.1 / 6.0 / 6.85
dists: 0 / 25 / 35

Gren lmg42 (60 muni)
DPS: 5.6 / 8.6 / 8.9
dists: 0 / 28 / 35

USF M1919 (70 muni)
DPS: 5.4 / 8.3 / 8.8
dists: 0 / 28 / 35

Comments:
- Volks mp44 is the more cost effective close range weapon, with two of them having better DPS than a single BAR. Double BAR is clearly better but is double the cost for not double the performance.
- BARS have a very short mid range, compared to volks mp44.
- Grens lmg42 is the best lmg, both performance and cost wise, being better than even the more expensive M1919.
- Bren is the weakest lmg, but has a cost performance that is just below the lmg42.
- The allies need to pay for a rack unlock and the weapons they get are not as cost effective but they can double equip BRENs and BARS. ie Allied line inf have to pay a lot more to get an edge over axis line inf.

NOTE: The numbers are for Vet 0 and things do change a lot with the different units vet levels.

Colour me an idiot but I had no idea that the DPS profile for lmgs decreased, the closer you got... Explain why my double bren IS are so awful at close range.

Edit: added cons ppsh. and grens G43

Because its almost as if bars do more DPS.

120 muni equipment should be better than 60 muni lol but still single bar is worse than volks upgrade

combatwombat^
actually im only using priest company and for me M1919 its not that bad

Came back to the game after a break to find its in pretty good balance, except for one big issue. BARS. They are way too strong for what they are, destroying all axis inf. I'm making this thread for two reasons:

1. Whats your guys opinions on bars? and how would you balance them if at all.

One isn't too strong in any way and 2 cost 120 muni, which is considerable investment.

2. What are your recommendations for dealing with double bar death squads?

HMG42 and staying at long range.

stuff

Good, fairly comprehensive post that essentially mentions everything that needs to be mentioned as far as the weapons are concerned. I feel like any post about weapons could benefit from being double checked with everything you said.

And yeah, the dps being lower the closer you get and the awkward spinning/reaiming that can happen at point blank means that LMGs perform pretty badly at close range.

And interesting that (IIRC) cooldown still decreases and accuracy still increases as you get closer with lmgs. It means that the super well known stats behave as intended with range. Burst duration being longer the further you are is the least counter intuitive way to get the intended DPS curve I suppose.

Edit: I suppose the comparison could also mention the fact that the LMGs cant be fired on the move; obvious, but relevant.

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Colour me an idiot but I had no idea that the DPS profile for lmgs decreased, the closer you got... Explain why my double bren IS are so awful at close range.

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Most Weapon profiles are designed to promote relative positioning. So the perform better at certain ranges and worse at others. This way the benefits of better placement are magnified.

If the lmg DPS increased at close range smg units would benefit less from moving to point blank. Now they get a bigger advantage.

That is one of the problems with V.G. STG and Penal SVT. They weapon's curve are almost linear (they are simply to effective at all ranges) allowing these units to perform adequately at all ranges.

As for the rest of your analysis one has to keep in mind the weapon of the rest of the squad since some weapons mix better with others.

In an ideal world, you would nerf assault Rifles and Carbines which perform too well at long range and the difference between both could be how well they snipe individual model vs spreading damage across the squad through the focus fire mechanic. But this train has long depart from station some years ago.

That is one of the problems with V.G. STG and Penal SVT. They weapon's curve are almost linear (they are simply to effective at all ranges) allowing these units to perform adequately at all ranges.

Grens G43, Falls FGs, Obers IR STG & PF G43.

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Grens G43, Falls FGs, Obers IR STG & PF G43.
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True but these weapon hit the field later having smaller impact and/or have other restriction. Fixing VG STs/Penal SVTs is a more important issue.