About USF early game, how about finally buffing RE a bit?

I’m suggesting: removing or cut in half the penalties for volley fire (the changes that were suppose to happen some time ago) and reducing reinforcement costs

Reasons: there’s a lot of people complaining about USF early game and it’s not nessarily entirely the fault of riflemen. There’s a couple people who thinks Rifles are bad, and let’s agree to disagree to say they are decent compared to the Axis infantry, they certainly aren’t underpowered. Vonivan complained at the end of his stream today that he would have played USF in tournament if their early game wasn’t so shit against OST

I also see RE being pretty damn useless before acquiring bazookas and gaining vet off of being an AT unit so mid to late game they are actually extremely useful, more so than other factions base engineer units later on. Perhaps the later usefulness outweighs it being barely a unit early on but damn is it frustrating to use volley fire vs okw SP and it does absolutely nothing.

Early game though USF is held back by this squishy and expensive unit that doesn’t really provide the combat utility it’s suppose to. (Unless vs the kuble which it’s quite awesome against) I believe reinforcement cost decrease will also let this unit chase around snipers better since losing a model wouldn’t cost basically as much as a rifleman. Then again the RE never had good accuracy until vet 2 anyways so..... sniper will remain a problem until M20 pops out aye

What do y’all think? Does the RE need a buff or does something else need to change for USF like switching around some unit in the tech trees?

i agree buff valley fire is the right choice it's should help RE help riflemen survive during at the very early game like Sturmpioneer can prevent any squad from closing in volk and MG42 help gren not to get outgun

Assault enginer should be first usf unit but u cant bulid them, just one at start maybe wihout flamer and now usf opening isnt so bad when u have unit that can actualy flank i think after that change usf should be good

I think they should straight up be replaced by a 4 or 5 man Assault Engineer squad that are also able to upgrade to flamers because they're useless as a commander specific unit amd the USF need the flamers Imo, RE can then act as American Osttruppen basically, cheap infantry to man the line and crew weapons as well as be used as Auxiliary AT units with bazookas when needed.

That would eliminate the need for doctrinal flamers and free up a couple commander slots.

I'd just ditch Volley Fire entirely: it usually doesn't work and it's a frustrating ability when it does with unpredictable results.

Furthermore, buffing USF's early short range play is just going to make Volksgrenadiers even more of a dominant choice over Sturmpioneers. If USF needs to be stronger early on it needs to be stronger against Volks, not Sturms.

If REs need a buff, I'd lean towards an Ostruppen/Infantry Section style cover bonus. That helps them fight Volks and defend without turning them into budget Riflemen.

...Then again the RE never had good accuracy until vet 2 anyways so..... sniper will remain a problem until M20 pops out aye
...

Actually RE get a x120 accuracy bonus at vet 1. Which quite a high bonus for vet 1.

The M20 Utility Car could certainly do with a price cut now though. It's pretty much just an expensive sniper counter now people use the AAHT.

RE volley fire buff is not enough. USF is just so laughably bad in 2v2+ at the moment. I´d go as far as saying that they are even worse than UKF. At least UKF is still good early to mid game vs OKW while USF just sucks vs both axis factions.

OKW stomps USF in the first minutes and can just get whatever position they want. Kübel can still bleed Riflemen well despite being trash vs UKF and Soviet T1 builds. Volks can build sand bags and win long range engagements despite being cheaper and quicker to build. And then on top of all of this you have Sturms...

Vs. Ost you are better off because you don´t get pressured that hard but you still can´t effectively deal with the MG42 because you don´t have enough squads to effectively flank, you don´t have smoke grenades or regular nades because they are locked behind a super expensive side tech. You can get a mortar but USF mortar is really bad this patch. Only really useful to smoke because it takes ages to deal damage to anything. It also means you have less combat squads available which makes your lack of units even worse. If it´s an open map and Ost player has good sniper micro you might aswell quit. If you are lucky enough to face Ost on a CQC map you are generally going to be fine but that´s the only scenario I can think of in which USF isn´t at a disadvantage.

When you get the first officer out and things get better but you still face the horrible AI/AT tech choice.

M20 is way overpriced. AA HT is ok but doesn´t have smoke and thus really struggles vs AT guns. 50 cal is decent.

Stuart needs to get some sort of AI buff because right now it´s just a worse AEC. Pak Howi is decent vs static play. USF at gun is a terrible design with it´s pathetic 130 far penetration. It can´t even reliably pen a OKW P4 without constantly spending munis. Yes if you do spend munis it gets pretty good but the constant extra micro/cost makes it really annoying IMO.

Jackson and Scott are decent late game units even though Jackson isn´t that good unless the map is wide open. The moment it can´t use it´s range it becomes pretty average because of the long reload. Especially on maps with lots of sight and shotblockers like Elst it´s pretty mediocre overall.

USF also lacks decent rocket arty, Calliope is way too expensive for what it does. Priest is one of the few good late game doctrinal choices USF has.

Actually RE get a x120 accuracy bonus at vet 1. Which quite a high bonus for vet 1.

Thanks for clarifying I thought it was a vet two bonus. What is their base accuracy though and how does it compare to other units of the same category? (Like for example Combat engineers)

I'd just ditch Volley Fire entirely: it usually doesn't work and it's a frustrating ability when it does with unpredictable results.

Furthermore, buffing USF's early short range play is just going to make Volksgrenadiers even more of a dominant choice over Sturmpioneers. If USF needs to be stronger early on it needs to be stronger against Volks, not Sturms.

If REs need a buff, I'd lean towards an Ostruppen/Infantry Section style cover bonus. That helps them fight Volks and defend without turning them into budget Riflemen.

Volley Fire can be a potent ability if it’s not hindered by an extreme and odd penalty. The suppression effect is very slow to take effect too and the negatives causes RE squads that actually uses the ability to bleed more FOR using one of their abilities.

To be fair, one of the reasons USF struggles so much against OKW early game is strums being worth about 1.5 of a unit early on and RE being useless. RE shouldn’t fight Volks, that’s not their job. It’s Rifles vs Volks that is pretty interesting imo for a whole bag of reasons too long to list. Letting the RE use its ability is the right way to go, it creates more interresting interactions between Sturms and RE.

The M20 Utility Car could certainly do with a price cut now though. It's pretty much just an expensive sniper counter now people use the AAHT.

Definitely, it costs just as much man power as a medium tank

RE volley fire buff is not enough. USF is just so laughably bad in 2v2+ at the moment. I´d go as far as saying that they are even worse than UKF. At least UKF is still good early to mid game vs OKW while USF just sucks vs both axis factions.

OKW stomps USF in the first minutes and can just get whatever position they want. Kübel can still bleed Riflemen well despite being trash vs UKF and Soviet T1 builds. Volks can build sand bags and win long range engagements despite being cheaper and quicker to build. And then on top of all of this you have Sturms...

Vs. Ost you are better off because you don´t get pressured that hard but you still can´t effectively deal with the MG42 because you don´t have enough squads to effectively flank, you don´t have smoke grenades or regular nades because they are locked behind a super expensive side tech. You can get a mortar but USF mortar is really bad this patch. Only really useful to smoke because it takes ages to deal damage to anything. It also means you have less combat squads available which makes your lack of units even worse. If it´s an open map and Ost player has good sniper micro you might aswell quit. If you are lucky enough to face Ost on a CQC map you are generally going to be fine but that´s the only scenario I can think of in which USF isn´t at a disadvantage.

When you get the first officer out and things get better but you still face the horrible AI/AT tech choice.

M20 is way overpriced. AA HT is ok but doesn´t have smoke and thus really struggles vs AT guns. 50 cal is decent.

Stuart needs to get some sort of AI buff because right now it´s just a worse AEC. Pak Howi is decent vs static play. USF at gun is a terrible design with it´s pathetic 130 far penetration. It can´t even reliably pen a OKW P4 without constantly spending munis. Yes if you do spend munis it gets pretty good but the constant extra micro/cost makes it really annoying IMO.

Jackson and Scott are decent late game units even though Jackson isn´t that good unless the map is wide open. The moment it can´t use it´s range it becomes pretty average because of the long reload. Especially on maps with lots of sight and shotblockers like Elst it´s pretty mediocre overall.

USF also lacks decent rocket arty, Calliope is way too expensive for what it does. Priest is one of the few good late game doctrinal choices USF has.

A bit off topic at the end there, let’s keep the topic on RE changes plz. USF have other problems of course but it’s not the concern on this post. Right now, we are trying to decide what it is that we can touch about USF early game that doesn’t massively buff a core infantry unit like rifle man and can be pretty easy for relic to implement. For example, giving RE volley fire buffs and manpower bleed down

Although I do agree, USF lacks some options and is often locked behind one style of play but that doesn’t make them absolutely terrible

Thanks for clarifying I thought it was a vet two bonus. What is their base accuracy though and how does it compare to other units of the same category? (Like for example Combat engineers)

Happy that I could be of help.
R.E. have superior DPS than C.E. at all range and they are allot better at ranges closer than 10.

Volley Fire can be a potent ability if it’s not hindered by an extreme and odd penalty. The suppression effect is very slow to take effect too and the negatives causes RE squads that actually uses the ability to bleed more FOR using one of their abilities.

Volley fire has proven difficult to balance and there was a time that it was OP, what makes thing more complicated is that becomes allot better when R.E. pick up weapons. Currently the best way to use it without a weapon is when is garrison.

Generally is a difficult ability to balance and it should probably be available only when equipped with m1919a6.

What if REs didn't need to unlock smoke?

I think they should straight up be replaced by a 4 or 5 man Assault Engineer squad that are also able to upgrade to flamers because they're useless as a commander specific unit amd the USF need the flamers Imo, RE can then act as American Osttruppen basically, cheap infantry to man the line and crew weapons as well as be used as Auxiliary AT units with bazookas when needed.

That would eliminate the need for doctrinal flamers and free up a couple commander slots.

agreed would love to see that change tbh

IDK what people are talking about USF 1v1 early game being bad against OKW, i find them good against OKW. But against OST its more difficult because of the mg42 combined with grenadiers + plus the risk of snipers (good use of combined arms tbh), you haven't got that option with USF at the start and back in the old days all u had to do was pop smoke.

You can get the motor as USF, but its very risky cuz that would mean 1 less rifle squad, and motors are rng based at the end of the day.

USF is in a very good spot for all game modes but right now, Soviets and OST are both the best factions for 1v1 for me, team games on the other hand all factions are pretty powerful tbh.

Maybe, if the USF player can choose between Smokes on Riflemen or motor (no cost side tech), picking 1 would lock out the other (like brits AEC)but idk.

What if REs didn't need to unlock smoke?

Yeah that would be a really good change. Better than the proposed Volley Fire change

Wow the amount of exaggeration from these posts is staggering. RE useless? LOL. RE get dirt cheap vehicle mines, fighting positions with free nades, and tank traps which other repair units don't get. Volley fire is a bonus. RE fight as well as pios or a bit better since they don't need to close in.

USF doesn't get enough squads to flank mg42 early game? If USF could consistently outflank mg42 IN THE EARLY GAME Ost would be completely underpowered as Ost would have zero map control if mgs were constantly retreating leading to 10 min sherman wins every game.

USF mortar sucks? The only thing that "sucks" is that it's a bit lacking in range. When a squad is in range, the USF mortar will kill it with less shells than an Ost mortar needs. Completely worth the micro to carry around the low setup time, mobile USF mortar. As Alphrum said, back in the good old days, noobs can just spam 15 muni smoke everywhere with riflemen. Now USF players actually need to think in advance (like everyone else) instead of doing everything on-the-fly. WAHHHHH! Me want my rifle smoke back!!!! WAHHHHHHH!!!! I want all of my units to be able to a-move everywhere. FUCK THE MORTAR! WAHHHH! That's why 222 is so op, because USF players refuse to get an at gun when there is more than one 222. Because u can't a-move the damn thing. USF players prefer using zooks or a stuart to counter them but they fail to realize that a 222 brigade requires something with better dps, range and accuracy than a stuart or zooks.

USF's nickname should be called (used to be called): the attack-move faction.

Quit the game if Ost gets sniper? LOL. Whether the Ost player is good with snipers or not, the strategy is the same: spread out and cap, attack on a wide front and preferable at the same time so the sniper needs to choose which engagement to support and fighting two skirmishes at a time put a strain on sniper micro. One wrong move and..... dead sniper. Realize that all 3 sniper durability have been nerfed to shit. There is always the 5 min m20 which should always come faster than the 222 if your map control is better (you fucked up if it isn't.)

Moral of the story: (do I really need to tell everyone again?) Learn to play, scrubs.

Ost vs USF is fairly balanced. USF vs OKW is broken which is why OKW did so well against USF in GCS2. OKW early manpower advantage is significant with how much better sturmpioneers are than riflemen and RE. It puts USF on the backfoot immediately.

Something needs to be done about USF early game against OKW. Maybe put MG in beginning in place of mortar. .50 cal would not be good against Osteer early game but would be much better against OKW in beginning and stopping sturmpioneer abuse.

Ost vs USF is fairly balanced. USF vs OKW is broken which is why OKW did so well against USF in GCS2. OKW early manpower advantage is significant with how much better sturmpioneers are than riflemen and RE. It puts USF on the backfoot immediately.

Something needs to be done about USF early game against OKW. Maybe put MG in beginning in place of mortar. .50 cal would not be good against Osteer early game but would be much better against OKW in beginning and stopping sturmpioneer abuse.

I would like to see mg in tier 1 instead of mortars

Moral of the story: (do I really need to tell everyone again?) Learn to play, scrubs.

Why not play all factions first to see what balance is really like? You only play one faction, yet you think you know something about USF? lol

Wow the amount of exaggeration from these posts is staggering. RE useless? LOL. RE get dirt cheap vehicle mines, fighting positions with free nades, and tank traps which other repair units don't get. Volley fire is a bonus. RE fight as well as pios or a bit better since they don't need to close in.

USF doesn't get enough squads to flank mg42 early game? If USF could consistently outflank mg42 IN THE EARLY GAME Ost would be completely underpowered as Ost would have zero map control if mgs were constantly retreating leading to 10 min sherman wins every game.

USF mortar sucks? The only thing that "sucks" is that it's a bit lacking in range. When a squad is in range, the USF mortar will kill it with less shells than an Ost mortar needs. Completely worth the micro to carry around the low setup time, mobile USF mortar. As Alphrum said, back in the good old days, noobs can just spam 15 muni smoke everywhere with riflemen. Now USF players actually need to think in advance (like everyone else) instead of doing everything on-the-fly. WAHHHHH! Me want my rifle smoke back!!!! WAHHHHHHH!!!! I want all of my units to be able to a-move everywhere. FUCK THE MORTAR! WAHHHH! That's why 222 is so op, because USF players refuse to get an at gun when there is more than one 222. Because u can't a-move the damn thing. USF players prefer using zooks or a stuart to counter them but they fail to realize that a 222 brigade requires something with better dps, range and accuracy than a stuart or zooks.

USF's nickname should be called (used to be called): the attack-move faction.

Quit the game if Ost gets sniper? LOL. Whether the Ost player is good with snipers or not, the strategy is the same: spread out and cap, attack on a wide front and preferable at the same time so the sniper needs to choose which engagement to support and fighting two skirmishes at a time put a strain on sniper micro. One wrong move and..... dead sniper. Realize that all 3 sniper durability have been nerfed to shit. There is always the 5 min m20 which should always come faster than the 222 if your map control is better (you fucked up if it isn't.)

Moral of the story: (do I really need to tell everyone again?) Learn to play, scrubs.

I’m not going to address the other things except for RE as I feel like you’re touched on things that other people didn’t even bring up here 0-0

In a straight up firefight, despite being better than CE, RE has neither the survivability or firepower to tickle enemy squads. When I said useless I definitely meant it in a combat role. (At least CE gets flamesthrowers) Volley fire espically doesn’t play a part in.... well anything. It’s munitions to slowly suppress a single squad and it causes the RE to actually receive more damage (thus MP) bleed back. What ability in the game also have so much drawback? Seriously I’m asking since I can’t think of one. (Maybe the officer draw fire or maybe the KT locking turret? Idk)

From what you have said, yes of course the RE squads are experts at utility. Their fighting positions, while fragile, at quite awesome. Their tank traps are their way of building green cover to be entirely honest but yes other engineering units don’t get them unless for doctrines. Their mines, while not as good as other mines, are cheap so that counts for something. Now all of these utility options are literally available to every other engineering units. Is that really a big advantage RE has?

Not asking for free smoke here or an auto counter to snipers just suggesting doing the buff they originally were going to do for the RE since the early game is pretty damn draining with not enough payout.

...What ability in the game also have so much drawback? Seriously I’m asking since I can’t think of one. (Maybe the officer draw fire or maybe the KT locking turret? Idk)

...

Storm troopers tactical advance get half speed and x150% target size

Smgs Thompson tactical movement reduced speed and x150% target size

Fire up reduced speed after effect

TWP less damage

Stun shot less damage

and so on.

Once more the ability is difficult to use and balance, remember it get better the longer it last and it get better with the vet 1 vet bonus and when BARs and Lmg are equipped.
(edited to make number more clear, thanks sander93)