Buff Shocks

...
If they are so good why is nobody using them?

Dhsk was OP for about 2 years, why nobody was using it?

Shock may need a buff or redesign but the argument simply does not hold much water.

I think the model dropping on approach hurts them a lot because they've got evenly spread DPS. Rangers, PPSh Cons and Thompson Paras all have ablative models before they start dropping SMGs.

There are two ways to fix this I can think of:

Reduce the number of PPSh SMGs to four, then increase the Shock PPSh's damage by 50%.

Give them To The Last Man like Penals to soften the DPS drop from losing models.

Honestly, I think PPsh41s being their only weapons is completely fine. When they get full Vet, Shock Troops are BRUTAL! I like using the Terror Doctrine most when using them. I would load my Shocks into either a Scout Car or M5 Halftrack (M5 for best results), pop some Propaganda over an enemy position and CHARGE!!! Don''t forget to unload your Shocks so that they can reinforce and take out the main Infantry threats like MG42s. Then follow up with a push from the rest of your forces. Really, it's the only way to use them in an open map.

On Close Quarters maps, I find using sight blockers like buildings and hedgerows can be your best friend. Using Shocks for ambushes is a great way to get them vetted.

Dhsk was OP for about 2 years, why nobody was using it?

Shock may need a buff or redesign but the argument simply does not hold much water.

Dhsk is only available in 2 not so great commanders, Shocks are available in so many and good commanders.

Dhsk is only available in 2 not so great commanders, Shocks are available in so many and good commanders.

Actually most commanders with shock troops have a better equivalent with the superior Guards or the cheaper Ppsh conscripts.

One of the few thing one does not get with Guards is the IS-2, but on the other hand you do not get the T-34/85, a very good medium tank, with shock troops.

Shocks are available in so many and good commanders.

???

IIRC shocks have only in 5 commanders: with b-4, is-2 and incediary barrage, fear commander, isu-152 with il-2 bombing and commander with 120mm mortar and ppsh upgrade for cons. The only good and viable the one with is-2 and incendiary barrage. Shocks need rework, and as i said early, i suggest make them like elite jaeger infantry squad - you can have only one squad. Because if we straight buff shocks, we will see shock spam. But if you have only one squad, but this squad really good, it will prevent spam and make unit more consistent.

From my perspective, i see new shocks something like this:
1. Not share cooldown on grens
2. New active ability - "Supressing fire" - in cone sector, all infantry get suppression and damage, but it make shocs vulnerable, like ability from USF paras.
3. New Active ability - "Sprint" - squad can run on a short period time, but get exhaustion after that (like exhaustion from USF paras ability, where they can't retreat fast)
4. Buff armor
4. Increase cost for 400 MP like german paratroopers

IIRC shocks have only in 5 commanders: ...

Actually 6.

Anti-Infantry Tactics
Counterattack Tactics
Shock Motor Heavy Tactics
Shock Rifle Frontline Tactics
Soviet Shock Army
Terror Tactics

Actually 6.

Anti-Infantry Tactics
Counterattack Tactics
Shock Motor Heavy Tactics
Shock Rifle Frontline Tactics
Soviet Shock Army
Terror Tactics

To be fair terror and anti infantry are barely different commanders

Dhsk was OP for about 2 years, why nobody was using it?

Because at that point, there were stronger options rather than spamming Dhskas. It was called maxims and SU at that point relied on having late game callins if they wanted to stay relevant in the game.

When the power level of factions or strategies is too high, good but not meta options are always gonna be Tier 2 strats. Once you buff stock options for SU and nerf the alternatives, Dhska found it's place into the meta.


Shocks are not gonna see META play unless they are utterly bonkers, because the core of the commanders which have them, ar at most fair. And fair doesn't cut it.

ISU after WFA release will rarely ever be meta on 1v1, IS2 is almost there but sees more use in the other commander, KV8 has been nerf outside of use and Soviet shock army is badly designed and doesn't provide anything other commanders could bring.

...
Because at that point, there were stronger options rather than spamming Dhskas. ...

Exactly my point, just because a unit is not used it does not mean that is UP but that simply there better options. In addition when it comes to doctrinal units their might simple better doctrines.

In addition when it comes to CQC units equipped only with sgms like, assault grenadiers, Mp40 VG, assault engineer and shock troops most of them see little action and only in specific maps. It seems that long range DPS and point blank DPS of the other unit is bit high and CQC units have hard time getting the better of the enemy even if they manage to close up.

Exactly my point, just because a unit is not used it does not mean that is UP but that simply there better options. In addition when it comes to doctrinal units their might simple better doctrines.

In addition when it comes to CQC units equipped only with sgms like, assault grenadiers, Mp40 VG, assault engineer and shock troops most of them see little action and only in specific maps. It seems that long range DPS and point blank DPS of the other unit is bit high and CQC units have hard time getting the better of the enemy even if they manage to close up.

If there are better options at the same tier for the same job instead of equal-ish alternatives, then that's a very definition of a unit being underpowered.

If there are better options at the same tier for the same job instead of equal-ish alternatives, then that's a very definition of a unit being underpowered.

No it is not the definition of being underpowered. It can be perfectly balanced and the alternatives overpowered.

Once more you theory does not really hold much water in the case we are taking about since shock troops are doctrinal units, and things are more complicated. Maxim spam was used even when Dshk were op and yet saw little action.

The only point I have made so far is that Shock troops not being used does not automatically mean the they are UP. Especially since Guards are extremely strong and in commanders with better abilities.

What is your definition then? It's very easy to tell others that they're wrong.

No it is not the definition of being underpowered. It can be perfectly balanced and the alternatives overpowered.

Once more you theory does not really hold much water in the case we are taking about since shock troops are doctrinal units, and things are more complicated. Maxim spam was used even when Dshk were op and yet saw little action.

The only point I have made so far is that Shock troops not being used does not automatically mean the they are UP. Especially since Guards are extremely strong and in commanders with better abilities.

You're diving balls deep into semantics and strawman arguments again.

We both know the alternative is not op, unless you want to claim that literally any other unit you could get at that time is OP, because getting any other unit is a better choice in literally any other situation.

One thing that make shocks shine above other squads is that they come out strong when called in.

They don't need any upgrades to be at their maximum dps and 2 gimmicks to be instantly effective. They are not a weak unit per se.

I rarely call them asap as th cps are available, more like a midgame/ late call in, esp. when i took a lot hits on my infantry / maxims and i don't have the time to new cons up.

They are a god unit to (surprisingly) fight back an axis push that bleed the opponent already.
You can just walk all over half dead wehrmacht units with ease.
OKW is another thing, since volks in late willl probably heal or are genrally more resistant. But here is an example where they really can shine.


And here is a huge weakness from shocks vs OKW. Good players won't let you come near and even if you do, the already vetted volks will have more hp than you have dps
(ofc. my subjective obsvervation).

When you have to get close, stgs drain your hp and incy nade even more. Before you can do any significant damage, you have like 3,4 shocks left with a 3rd hp bar.

And here you begin to bleed...

Buffing shocks? Make them more resistant against flames?
A little bit more hp would be recommended or remove double cooldwon? Can't remember if that was a cause to make them op.

I love them, but they are really hard to maximize their effectiveness.

I totally agree with Vipper. A unit not being used simply means that there were better options. Another example is that after the 222 got cost nerfed from 210/15 to 250/30, the autocannon AoE was also nerfed to shit vs inf (and snipers.) At that point Soviet 2man snipers were op. How come nobody used them. Because flamer penals were also op and SO MUCH easier to use than snipers (and snipers won't work with them due to lack of snare). When the flamer was removed and ptrs added, the forums flooded with op SU sniper complaints because the SU build adapted to ptrs penal + 2 sniper (or con/guard + 2 sniper). Was the SU sniper not op when SU was spamming flame penals. No, the snipers were op at that time, but they were only overshadowed by the greatness of flamer penals.

I use shocks sometimes with terror tactics,they are not so UP. It's a really durable unit and can engage mainline infantry still with 4 models. I feel they are a good choice only vs whermacht with 1 ptrs penals.The only problem is lategame vetted lmg grens and obers, but it's ok, in the early mid game they can hold choke points alone, you can keep shocks in cover receiving long range dps, they will take ages to force your retreat and they give you a lot of control map. Need to be careful buffing this unit. Ah and i forgot that shocks and pgrens are the only elite infantry units that don't need weapon upgrades to be effective.

The dropoff in damage at range is probably a little too steep on Shocks these days. That might be it.

The line up of commanders of EFA factions is more of the problem, IMO.