SOVIET COMMANDER REVAMP DISCUSSION

Soviet Shock Army
I absolutely hate this doctrine design. Lets have shocks and PPSHs... Lets have 120mm Mortars and Ml-20s... TOO MUCH OVERLAP. This doctrine has a lot of overlap with itself and its own abilities are fight for the same role.

Whoa no way, dont hate on Soviet Shock Army, its one of the best and my absolute favorite. Its all about pressure, which builds as you keep it applied.

Example: Pressure OKW using ppsh and flanking, add in shocks for even more punch, now bring in 120mm to begin pounding their trucks, and finish by pounding them further with Howie. It works perfectly, just as the name indicates how it should be played.

I wish more Soviet Commanders could be changed. It bothers me how many of them share 3 or more abilities with each other.

This is exactly how the entire Soviet army is designed, they want to give you options of which abilities to mix and match, while at the same time ensuring certain abilities exclude each other. If there was less of this, people would rightly moan that to have a certain thing they have to pick a doctrine they dont want.

OPTIONS is good. The alternative might very well be a lot less doctines, which is not good.

The Soviets are pure Docs. In all the matches, most people choose Docs with elite units, so the best stuff is:

Urban Defense Tactics:
-FHQ in 4v4 there is a lot of abuse, so it is best to replace it with an elite unit, if possible Shook Troops (partisans is not the same).
-BoobyTrapTerritory, this trap occupy a commander slot, which makes the commander waste, so it is better to replace it by Conscript Repair.
-Fix: M-42 ATgun copy/paste as Rakete OKW,

Defensive Tactics:
-PMD-6 ATpersonnel, this trap occupy a commander slot, which makes the commander waste, so it is better to replace it by an elite unit, if possible Shook Troops (partisans is not the same).
-Fix: M-42 ATgun copy/paste as Rakete OKW.

...Shook Troops (partisans is not the same).
....

Shock troops are very common as you can see here. (6 commanders)

https://www.coh2.org/topic/81491/suggestions-for-commanders-revamp

Imo there certain abilities that are trademark to Commander and should to 1 but there others should be balanced and become more common.

Urban Defense Tactics:
-FHQ in 4v4 there is a lot of abuse, so it is best to replace it with an elite unit, if possible Shook Troops (partisans is not the same).
-BoobyTrapTerritory, this trap occupy a commander slot, which makes the commander waste, so it is better to replace it by Conscript Repair.
-Fix: M-42 ATgun copy/paste as Rakete OKW,

It will make it less unique. Urban Defence become copy of shocks/IS-2 and shocks/ISU-152 doctrines, but without IS-2/ISU-152.

Defensive Tactics:
-PMD-6 ATpersonnel, this trap occupy a commander slot, which makes the commander waste, so it is better to replace it by an elite unit, if possible Shook Troops (partisans is not the same).
-Fix: M-42 ATgun copy/paste as Rakete OKW.

Defensive doctrine will become ultimate mp drain. 3 call-ins with 300+ mp cost (and 200 mp M42) is to much. And there is better analogs (for elite infantry and DShK - Lend-Lease, for elite infantry and HM-38 - Guard Motor Coordination or Soviet Shock Army). The problem with this doctrine imo - it hasn't late game tools.

The problem with this doctrine imo - it hasn't late game tools.

Thats intended, because it has such strong early game tools. Just in the same way as mobile defence for Ost.

Thats intended, because it has such strong early game tools. Just in the same way as mobile defence for Ost.

Khm...commmand panzer...khm...khm...Pumaoverplayingevenmediumsinrighthands...IOW - Mobile defence gives more utility and usefull during all periods of the game. it has extremely good passive abillity (smoke for vehicles), possibly not bad activated abillity for fast recap and two very good call-ins (not three because osttruppens are osttruppens).

Defensive tactics, on the other hand, can't offer you nothing good for late game.

Thanks god, revamps not following this design anymore. IIRC all revamped commanders from first revamp are effective during all periods of the game. I believe, second revamp will continue this tendency.

But the forward HQ is so strong for early game, your not going to get overly powerful abilities like an IS2, just like you would never get a Tiger in mobile defence. I know those are extremes, but pacing does have some importance when strong abilities are in a commander.

-FHQ in 4v4 there is a lot of abuse, so it is best to replace it with an elite unit, if possible Shook Troops (partisans is not the same).

Honestly the FHQ isn't that overpowered in itself, the problem is that especially OKW has nothing to counter it and even Ost only has the flame HT. I have absolutely no idea why it can't be 'captured' like FHQs could be captured and disabled in CoH1. Add this as well as a slight delay/penalty to reinforcing (so a full-on assault by the enemy can actually be succesful) and it would fix most of the problems imo.

It will make it less unique. Urban Defence become copy of shocks/IS-2 and shocks/ISU-152 doctrines, but without IS-2/ISU-152.



Defensive doctrine will become ultimate mp drain. 3 call-ins with 300+ mp cost (and 200 mp M42) is to much. And there is better analogs (for elite infantry and DShK - Lend-Lease, for elite infantry and HM-38 - Guard Motor Coordination or Soviet Shock Army). The problem with this doctrine imo - it hasn't late game tools.

Urban defense and Defensive tactics with shock troops. Hmmm something doesn't seem right here

The Soviets are pure Docs. In all the matches, most people choose Docs with elite units, so the best stuff is:

Urban Defense Tactics:
-FHQ in 4v4 there is a lot of abuse, so it is best to replace it with an elite unit, if possible Shook Troops (partisans is not the same).
-BoobyTrapTerritory, this trap occupy a commander slot, which makes the commander waste, so it is better to replace it by Conscript Repair.
-Fix: M-42 ATgun copy/paste as Rakete OKW,

Seriously? These changes would turn this doctrine into the most useless crap ever. Nobody would use it anymore.

- FHQ: Not only that FHQs already got nerfed (you can only use this ability in connected friendly territory and the aura bonus got nerfed; the "mortar vs garrison" buffs from last patch was an indirect nerf to this ability as well) but it is also completely depending on the map. And what is this argument "gets abused in 4v4 alot"?
Off-map strikes and rocket artillery get abused a lot in 4v4 as well, so let's just remove all of it from the entire game, huh? Awesome idea

- if you think that the booby trap is a slot waste, then you must have never used this commander before. It deals twice the damage of the OKW booby trap (from Obers and JLI) and -unlike its OKW counterpart- is able to wipe out an entire full health inf squad if it's a bit clumped. You just have to click the territory as well, dont need an inf squad for it

- why do some people think that the M1942 needs fixes or buffs? IMO it doesnt need any buffs at all and is perfectly fine for 200mp. It counters any vehicle that is smaller than a P4 just perfectly, and that's what it's supposed to do. Why on earth do people think that this unit should be capable of 1v1'ing a p4?

Community Defense Doctrine

- M42 AT gun damage from 80 to 120. Penetration from 100-80-60 to 120-100-80. (would have to be applied for urban defense too)

as mentioned above, I think it wouldn't even require any testing to know that this unit would be completely overpowered after those changes. So for 200mp you expect a high mobility AT gun with the highest rate of fire, which reliably penetrates a P4 and destroys said unit with 6 shots (or 5 shots + AT nade)?

Community Defense Doctrine

- Dhsk set up and tear down time nerfs reverted. Price to 280 MP. Applies to Lend Lease too.

Why do you want to see a comeback of dshk spam? IIRC you complained a lot (in Twitch chats) back when it was meta in 1v1.

as mentioned above, I think it wouldn't even require any testing to know that this unit would be completely overpowered after those changes. So for 200mp you expect a high mobility AT gun with the highest rate of fire, which reliably penetrates a P4 and destroys said unit with 6 shots (or 5 shots + AT nade)?



Why do you want to see a comeback of dshk spam? IIRC you complained a lot (in Twitch chats) back when it was meta in 1v1.

The only reason Dshk was used that much was because of tech free M4C abuse. Now that there are no more tech-free Shermans there wont be a risk of Dshk spam being meta. Dshk right now is just a completly useless overpriced piece of crap that no one uses because it´s laughably bad.


M42 at gun is not used because it´s laughably bad as well. Not sure why improving it a little bit would make it super OP. OKW can spam raks for 270MP and they do full damage, have high penetration and can cloak on top of that. So why would a 200 MP doctrinal AT gun without cloak with less damage and way less penetration be OP now? Also if M42 has 100 pen it still cant reliably pen P4s, especially not OKW P4s with their massive 238 frontal armor.

Seriously? These changes would turn this doctrine into the most useless crap ever. Nobody would use it anymore.

- FHQ: Not only that FHQs already got nerfed (you can only use this ability in connected friendly territory and the aura bonus got nerfed; the "mortar vs garrison" buffs from last patch was an indirect nerf to this ability as well) but it is also completely depending on the map. And what is this argument "gets abused in 4v4 alot"?
Off-map strikes and rocket artillery get abused a lot in 4v4 as well, so let's just remove all of it from the entire game, huh? Awesome idea

- if you think that the booby trap is a slot waste, then you must have never used this commander before. It deals twice the damage of the OKW booby trap (from Obers and JLI) and -unlike its OKW counterpart- is able to wipe out an entire full health inf squad if it's a bit clumped. You just have to click the territory as well, dont need an inf squad for it

Agree. Soviet urban defense booby trap is actually the best ability of the entire doctrine. FHQ is so situational and risky, I dont know how anyone can claim it´s OP.

The only reason Dshk was used that much was because of tech free M4C abuse. Now that there are no more tech-free Shermans there wont be a risk of Dshk spam being meta. Dshk right now is just a completly useless overpriced piece of crap that no one uses because it´s laughably bad.


M42 at gun is not used because it´s laughably bad as well. Not sure why improving it a little bit would make it super OP. OKW can spam raks for 270MP and they do full damage, have high penetration and can cloak on top of that. So why would a 200 MP doctrinal AT gun without cloak with less damage and way less penetration be OP now? Also if M42 has 100 pen it still cant reliably pen P4s, especially not OKW P4s with their massive 238 frontal armor.

I use the M1942 from time to time and I think it's fine for its price. I mean I guess you can do the damage buff if you want, but I dont see at all why penetration should get buffed. 222, 251, luchs and Puma, those are the units the M1942 is supposed to hardcounter, and it does. It is supposed to do jackshit vs p4 frontal armor. It penetrates a p4 from time to time (especially on rear/side armor), but not always ofc

You really should test the M1942 in cheat commands mod, it isnt that horrible. The amazing RoF is just perfect vs smaller vehicles, and it gains vet pretty fast.

I use the M1942 from time to time and I think it's fine for its price. I mean I guess you can do the damage buff if you want, but I dont see at all why penetration should get buffed. 222, 251, luchs and Puma, those are the units the M1942 is supposed to hardcounter, and it does. It is supposed to do jackshit vs p4 frontal armor. It penetrates a p4 from time to time (especially on rear/side armor), but not always ofc

You really should test the M1942 in cheat commands mod, it isnt that horrible. The amazing RoF is just perfect vs smaller vehicles, and it gains vet pretty fast.

M1942 could be better designed to deal with light fast vehicles. Accuracy could up, time before firing go down, arc increased and vet 1 ability to one similar to UKF ATG increasing rotation.

Maybe then increase the price.

(I agree and imo the unit is currently cost efficient)

I use the M1942 from time to time and I think it's fine for its price. I mean I guess you can do the damage buff if you want, but I dont see at all why penetration should get buffed. 222, 251, luchs and Puma, those are the units the M1942 is supposed to hardcounter, and it does. It is supposed to do jackshit vs p4 frontal armor. It penetrates a p4 from time to time (especially on rear/side armor), but not always ofc

You really should test the M1942 in cheat commands mod, it isnt that horrible. The amazing RoF is just perfect vs smaller vehicles, and it gains vet pretty fast.

But why should it do jackshit vs medium tanks? Rak only costs 70 MP more and is non-doctrinal T0 with 160 damage 200 penetration cloak retreat etc.

Also AT-guns are generally pretty bad vs light vehicles because of their mobility and small target size so I still don´t see how the M42 is "amazing" vs small vehicles unless opponent plays bad.

I don´t see why a doctrinal unit that is really only marginally cheaper should suck so much compared to OKW Raks. Especially because it comes in doctrines without powerful off map abilities or tanks.

But whatever, it´s just the lazy way the game is balanced. Give Soviets a couple of OP units so they can compete and leave the rest a horrible mess of uselessness. Outside of the meta units almost every single unit Soviets have needs to get buffed to become viable. Just sad. Dshk, M42 at gun, KV8, KV2, B4, Partisans, M5 HT, T34 76, Maxims, 80mm mortar (yeah I know bla bla bla utility). Everything is completly underpowered and forces you to go PPSH Guards T70 SU 85 IL2 every game if you want to win.

But why should it do jackshit vs medium tanks? Rak only costs 70 MP more and is non-doctrinal T0 with 160 damage 200 penetration cloak retreat etc.

Also AT-guns are generally pretty bad vs light vehicles because of their mobility and small target size so I still don´t see how the M42 is "amazing" vs small vehicles unless opponent plays bad.

I don´t see why a doctrinal unit that is really only marginally cheaper should suck so much compared to OKW Raks. Especially because it comes in doctrines without powerful off map abilities or tanks.

But whatever, it´s just the lazy way the game is balanced. Give Soviets a couple of OP units so they can compete and leave the rest a horrible mess of uselessness. Outside of the meta units almost every single unit Soviets have needs to get buffed to become viable. Just sad. Dshk, M42 at gun, KV8, KV2, B4, Partisans, M5 HT, T34 76, Maxims, 80mm mortar (yeah I know bla bla bla utility). Everything is completly underpowered and forces you to go PPSH Guards T70 SU 85 IL2 every game if you want to win.

this is not a good thread for a balance debate since it more commander proposal oriented.

Urban Defense Tactics:

Remove: Armored vehicle detection
Add: something "urban" theme. Cons PPSh would be too OP with FHQ. KV-8 would be fine.
Or there was a nice ability in COH1 Ostheer for the russians: engineer squads get 2x PPSh, 2x flamethrower and body armor.

*edit:
Add: Call is Lend Lease guards with 3 PPSh and 3 SVT rifles. It should be usefull in CQC fight.

Urban Defense Tactics:
Remove: Armored vehicle detection
Add: something "urban" theme. Cons PPSh would be too OP with FHQ. KV-8 would be fine.
Or there was a nice ability in COH1 Ostheer for the russians: engineer squads get 2x PPSh, 2x flamethrower and body armor.

I love this so much that there is no way it will ever happen. PPSh seems like too much. What if they got x2 Flamethrower x2 Mine Detector (faster disarm/wirecut), armor, and could place the AP mines and tank traps from defensive tactics. You get it at CP 2 but it would need to cost at least 80 muni for the upgrade pack. Call em Assault Engineers.

God I miss double flame Penals.

I forgot one thing

Why not have commander who can call in Guard squads and IS-2 Tank ?