SOVIET COMMANDER REVAMP DISCUSSION

Please use this thread to discuss or submit ideas for the Soviet Commander Revamp.
If you want to submit a full proposal, here are a few guidelines.

• Please choose commanders that you feel can realistically become competitive with a few good changes. Some commanders are probably beyond redemption at this point.
  
• Reminder that all proposed changes, must be preexisting units or abilities currently in the live game.
  
• Suggested changes should not detract from the commanders given theme.
  
• Please provide the rationale behind your proposed changes, and how they will improve said commander.
  
• Where applicable, provide costs, CP values, or other details regarding particular change(s)
  

We’re aiming to revamp two commanders per faction. In some instances, the same commanders are going to see a lot of similar ideas. In that case, maybe skip adding another full proposal, and instead get involved in the conversation about how best to make said commander work.

*Counterattack Tactics

Replaces the KV1. Add the T34/85. Now we have the so much asked Shocks with T34/85.



*Defensive Tactics

Add the KV1 and Soviet bunker. Gives more abilities to M42 and KV1 in this commander.

2 - M42 AT Gun
Deploy the light M42 AT gun. The M42 AT Gun can be used inside buildings.

2 - (PASSIVE) Defensive Fortifications
Combat Engineers can set up Machine Gun Nest, Tank Traps and lay Wire Fields.

3 -(PASSIVE) Anti-Tank Gun Ambush Tactics
ZiS-3 and M42 AT guns crews can hide their weapon and camouflage themselves, but when they do, their movement speed is decreased.

4 - HM-38 120mm Mortar Squad
The heavy HM-38 120mm mortar squad can be ordered in to the battlefield. Effective against static targets and infantry.

8 - KV-1 Heavy Tank
A KV-1 Heavy Tank can be ordered in to the battlefield. Durable vehicle unit moderate against all targets. The KV1 can be used in an immobile Hull Down position, increasing defenses and damage..

Please use this thread to discuss or submit ideas for the Soviet Commander Revamp.

• Please choose commanders that you feel can realistically become competitive with a few good changes. Some commanders are probably beyond redemption at this point.
  

Imo this the wrong way to go about it. Instead of trying to buff 2 commander so that they can become "meta" one can get allot better result if one nerfs the 2 most popular commanders and then see if one need to buff stock unit so that all the 20+ commanders become more viable.

Same goes for Ostheer.

Counterattack Tactics

Replaces the KV1. Add the T34/85. Now we have the so much asked Shocks with T34/85.



Defensive Tactics

Add the KV1 and Soviet bunker.

0 - Soviet Machine gun nest
Combat Engineers can build soviet machine gun nest.

2 - (PASSIVE) Defensive Fortifications
Combat Engineers can set up Tank Traps and lay Wire Fields.

3 -(PASSIVE) Anti-Tank Gun Ambush Tactics
ZiS-3 crews can hide their weapon and camouflage themselves, but when they do, their movement speed is decreased.

4 - HM-38 120mm Mortar Squad
The heavy HM-38 120mm mortar squad can be ordered in to the battlefield. Effective against static targets and infantry.

8 - KV-1 Heavy Tank
A KV-1 Heavy Tank can be ordered in to the battlefield. Durable vehicle unit moderate against all targets.

+1

But I honestly think that the bunker should be combined with the Defensive Fortifications hence the name of the ability since Tank Traps and wire fields are really more defenses than fortifications, and the free slot used for something like the DshK, unless they plan to rework the M42 AT gun for which I'm all up for.

Another alternative is the Urban Defense Tactics' Forward base or whatever it was called.

But I honestly think that the bunker should be combined with the Defensive Fortifications hence the name of the ability since Tank Traps and wire fields are really more defenses than fortifications, and the free slot used for something like the DshK, unless they plan to rework the M42 AT gun for which I'm all up for.

I edited my suggestion. Take a look.

I edited my suggestion. Take a look.

Nice, maybe they will take a look at the M42 for a rework, after Disney revived The Clone Wars I believe in Unicorns.

NKVD

Doctrine is way too munitions heavy. Radio Intercept + IL2 loiter make it interesting. Adding T34/85 would be enough to make it viable.

- replace forced conscription with T34/85.


Community Defense Doctrine

- Tank Traps replaced with KV1. KV1 fits the defensive theme of the doctrine.
- M42 AT gun damage from 80 to 120. Penetration from 100-80-60 to 120-100-80. (would have to be applied for urban defense too)
- Dhsk set up and tear down time nerfs reverted. Price to 280 MP. Applies to Lend Lease too.

Urban Defence commander rework

Forward Headquaters: Replaced with Zis-6 truck. Zis-6 can reinforce units in friendly territory and heal once stationary, basically acts like USF Ambulance but with slightly more HP and armor

[Vehicle Detection/45mm AT gun] Both of these simply do not fit with theme of the commander and utterly useless and unsalvageable abilities. No commander with these abilities will ever become meta, so instead of bothering with those it would be better to replace those with actually useful units/upgrades need for CQC combat in urban areas

Vehicle detection: Replaced with T-34-85. SU as a faction has only turretless tank destroyers. Those are unusuable in urban setting, especially against PIV and Panther. Standard T-34 relies on numbers and flanking to deal with those, which is again simply impossible in tight chokes of urban maps. T-34-85 would to a certain degree would solve all those problems

45mm AT gun: Replaced with PPSh Conscript upgrade. I have no idea why URBAN defence commander does not have access to CQC weapon upgrade which is specifically made for urban maps, but this is franlky hilarious. All urban-oriented commanders of others factions either have weapon upgrades or units specifically for close combat [Firestorm,Mobile Assault,Rifle company,Jaeger Infantry] except Soviet one. This is really nobrainer upgrade that fits theme of the commander and makes infantry scale better into late game

Booby Trap: Instead of offmap-armed booby trap for 100 munitions, it would be better to make this an upgrade and merge it with Light AI mines from Defenesive tactics commander. It would allow infantry and engineers place Light AI mines and put Booby Traps on points. Booby Trap cost and damage should also be equalized with OKW booby trap. [Currentry Sov booby trap costs twice as much but outright wipes enemy units]

Incendiary Barrage: This ability is seriously inferior to Phosphrous barrage or Light Artillery barrage or similar abilities of area denial. Lots of Soviet commanders have this barrage but not a single one is meta. It should either drop actual HE shells alongside incendiary ones or cost around 100 munitions or less

Basically commander would look like this

- Zis-6 Truck

- T-34-85

- PPSh upgrade

- AI Mines/Booby Traps

- Incendiary barrage

With Soviet there's a huge amount of overlap between doctrines, so picking the right one means fixing several doctrines in one go.

Therefore, the doctrine I'd suggest for an overhaul is Anti-Infantry Tactics.

Anti Infantry Tactics contains Shock Troops, the KV-8, Incendiary Artillery Strike, Fear Propaganda Artillery and Recon Overflight. The KV-8 and Shock Troops in particular are often complained about as weak.

That gives it:

20% overlap with Soviet Industry (KV-8 flamethrower tank)
20% overlap with Shock Motor and Soviet Shock Army (Shock Troops)
20% overlap with Conscript Support Tactics (Incendiary Barrage)
40% overlap with Counterattack Tactics (Recon, Shock Troops)
40% overlap with NVKD Rifle Disruption Tactics (Recon, Fear Propaganda)
60% overlap with Shock Rifle Frontline (KV-8, Shock Troops, Incendiary Artillery)

Soviet Shock Army
I absolutely hate this doctrine design. Lets have shocks and PPSHs... Lets have 120mm Mortars and Ml-20s... TOO MUCH OVERLAP. This doctrine has a lot of overlap with itself and its own abilities are fight for the same role.

2 CP: Shocks
2 CP: 120mm Mortar
2 CP: Conscript PTRS
6 CP: For Mother Russia
12 CP: IL2 Sturmovik Attack

I think the Conscript PTRS would be quite nice for this doctrine. This way the initial conscripts will not overlap with Shocks in fighting infantry. The 120 mm Mortar would be a nice mobile platform to bombard and smoke MGs to support Shocks.

Soviet Shock Army
I absolutely hate this doctrine design. Lets have shocks and PPSHs... Lets have 120mm Mortars and Ml-20s... TOO MUCH OVERLAP. This doctrine has a lot of overlap with itself and its own abilities are fight for the same role.

2 CP: Shocks
2 CP: 120mm Mortar
2 CP: Conscript PTRS
6 CP: For Mother Russia
12 CP: IL2 Sturmovik Attack

I think the Conscript PTRS would be quite nice for this doctrine. This way the initial conscripts will not overlap with Shocks in fighting infantry. The 120 mm Mortar would be a nice mobile platform to bombard and smoke MGs to support Shocks.

Wanted to post something similar to that. Very good idea. Soviet Shock army is indeed a bad design because of the overlap.

Soviet Shock Army
I absolutely hate this doctrine design. Lets have shocks and PPSHs... Lets have 120mm Mortars and Ml-20s... TOO MUCH OVERLAP. This doctrine has a lot of overlap with itself and its own abilities are fight for the same role.

2 CP: Shocks
2 CP: 120mm Mortar
2 CP: Conscript PTRS
6 CP: For Mother Russia
12 CP: IL2 Sturmovik Attack

Good proposal, although I don't like the idea of yet another doctrine with Skill Planes. Especially because they are usually used defensively as a get-out-of-jail card when lines are overrun, which is basically the opposite of shock tactics. Wouldn't IL-2 strafes or bombing runs be better to synergyse with assaults?

Hello everyone!
I've chosen urban defence tactic.
In my opinion it is considerebly weak (accordingly to this statistics it was picked only once and lost).
Nevertheless it is pretty unique and sufficient reworks wouldn't be needed.
I suggest following:
1) 0 point KV-1
2) 0 point Forward HQ
3) 2 points M42 field gun
4) 6 points Body Traps
5) 10 points PTAB
Speaking about Forward HQ, it has to be allowed to deploy it not only inside ambient buildings, but also inside a healing station and an observation point. My concern is, during longtime large-scale 4x4 matches most (if not all) of ambient buildings are usually already destroyed. In addition it would be great to allow to chose a retreat point after constructing t4.
M42 has to improved by adding camouflage ability similar to Pupchen's.
Body Traps ability have to be given to soviet engineers, so it would become a similar ability that Obers have. Also, it would be cool to give to engineers passive ability to construct tank traps and an upgrade (30 munitions cost) for traps disassembly.

this statistics*
https://www.coh2.org/news/81260/gcs2-game-stats-with-siphon-x#oh_meta

Let me leave my 2 cents:

Shock Motor Heavy Tactics and Mechanized Support Tactics

This guys overlapping to much:
Both have ISU-152
Both have elite infantry
Both have IL-2M bombing run

As result - 60% of abillities are common. In current meta doctrine with guards looks better due to mark target and guards. They should be like Ostheer's Luftwaffe Supply Doctrine and Close Air Support Doctrine (have a lot of common but works differently). I see several variants:

Guards doctrine aimed on anti-tanks purposes, and better suits to player with defence style. Doctrines with shocks should be more aggresive. It can be made with:
- Do something with Armored Vehicle Detection. It definetly the worst vehicle detection abillity in the game.
- Replacing IL-2M bombing run on IL-2M PTAB run
- Replacing conscript repair kit on something more usefull (Vehicle Crew Repair Training as variant)
- Replace shocks with PPSh upgrade for cons. It will help to deploy units with PPSh faster and provide the game around conscripts. Or keep shock and buff them to make the choice between guards and shock not so obvious. In the end, it should be like that

Shock Motor Heavy Tactics

NKVD sucks, needs fix



Details:

Commissar Squad: Boosts defense and offense of nearby infantry, and if the Commissar Squad dies, all nearby infantry become pinned (as is already in-game). In addition, the squad will be able to call in a Recon Overflight.

Manpower Blitz: Costs ~100 munitions and ~50 fuel, gives 500 manpower. Manpower income is reduced for several minutes. This could be replaced with a Munitions Blitz to counter the munitions heavy abilities.

Scorched Earth Policy: Costs ~200 munitions, rains down rockets on enemy infantry in owned territories. I tested this ability with the CheatCommands mod and it is really weak, only hitting a few models here and there. Obviously the ability's stats would have to be adjusted to be useful.

(All of these are unused abilities/units that are already in the game, just need a big of tweaking).

NKVD

-The Soviets need an officer or commissar as an officer unit on the battlefield

Community Defense Doctrine

-Truck for soviets that will be able to drop DP-28 or PTRS-41

-Give the Soviet anti-tank m-42 gun the ability be more effective (maybe shrapnel or the ability to knock down a tank caterpillar)

-Give the Soviet Union a trench with a machine gun as a defensive point

For other commanders (who have these abilities)

-The guardsmen can get m9 bazooka instead of PTRS-41. PTRS 41 is effective only at the beginning of the game to the first medium tanks (the bazooka was supplied by Lend-Lease)

-Increase the damage and penetration is-2 so that it could pose a real threat to its opponents

Thank you for reading my proposal for a new patch!

I like the NKVD idea, F1sh! especially the scorched earth part. I don't think Manpower Blitz fits into the way the game is balanced (no free resource conversions), but I'm not sure what would make a good replacement for it.

Here are my changes:

Defensive: (no late game, not much to spend munitions on)
2 Advanced Defenses (includes PMD-6 mines, tank traps, and MG nests)
2 HM-38
2 M-42 (can now camo and fire from buildings like Raketenwerfer)
3 Repair Station
8 152mm Barrage (copy of USF 155mm)

Anti-Infantry: (shares 3 abilities each with Terror and Shock Rifle)
2 Shock Troops
2 DShK
6 Rapid Conscription (buffed a bit?)
6 Booby Trap (buffed)
8 152mm Barrage

Advanced Warfare: (shares 3.5 abilities with Armored Assault)
0 T34/85
3 Conscript Assault Package
5 Conscript Repair
6 IL-2 Strafe
10 IL-2 PTAB

Reserve Army: (shares 3 abilities with Conscript Support)
2 Partisan Tank Hunters
2 Advanced Defenses
6 For Mother Russia
6 Rapid Conscription
8 ML-20

I like the NKVD idea, F1sh! especially the scorched earth part. I don't think Manpower Blitz fits into the way the game is balanced (no free resource conversions), but I'm not sure what would make a good replacement for it.

Personally, I think it works. It's a pretty hefty price to pay in both fuel + munitions and that the manpower income is slowed down after the ability is activated. Again, the ability could be switched to a "Munitions Blitz" to counter the heavy munitions cost of the commander.

I do like your other ideas though.

NKVD Rifle Disruption Tactics


0 (PASSIVE) Radio Intercept
Intercepts enemy radio transmissions providing valuable intel on enemy actions.

1 - Commissar Squad
The Commissar provides extra offense and defense to nearby infantry. Multiple officers will improve this effect.

2 - (PASSIVE) Conscript Long Range Package
Conscripts can upgrade to replace their rifles with DP-28 Light Machine Guns for better long-range firepower.

6 - Fear Propaganda Artillery
Airburst propaganda leaflets make targeted soldiers question the morality of their actions.

8 - Scorched Earth Policy
For the duration of the ability, enemy units in owned territories are bombarded with multiple rockets.



ps: The 3 red abilities are inside game files.