SU-76

As a Soviet main I feel the Su76 is alright in terms of cost efficiency. Regarding its accuracy, iirc the panzer 4 has a target size of 40 multiplied by the long range accuracy of the su76 of 0.025 and you have a 100% hit rate assuming those numbers are correct. ,,,

Target size of PzIV is 22 not 40.

On the other hand Su-76 get x130 accuracy at vet 2 and need about XP as stug need to get to vet 1 to do so.

I get your point, I did not know that the accuracy became worse after the patch (haven't played Sovs for a while now), but imo the pen and accuracy was extremely good before as well.

The thing is that it has to be bad in some way. It perfectly counters Light Vehicles like 222s. 251s, Flak HTs and Luchses by killing them or at least forcing them to move out of an area. The barrage then is just a nice bonus. It being free was a problem in the first place.

If you want to get a sniper tank hunter, you get the SU85 (which also has its flaws, but still).

well the pre patch SU-76 at least had fire density... a really high rate of fire.. to make up for its awful accuracy... sure it missed alot of rounds but it could fire them fast enough that missing doesnt really hurt the tank destroyer...

as per light AT... yes it counters 222s/luchs provided it has at least 1 conscript supporting it... and rushes to medium-close range so that it actually manages a hit... without 1 conscript supporting it... it is theoretically possible for a luchs to kill an SU-76 thanks to a combination of its lack of accuracy slightly slower speed and lack of a turret...

and yes in terms of AT performance the SU-85 is far superior...

As a Soviet main I feel the Su76 is alright in terms of cost efficiency. Regarding its accuracy, iirc the panzer 4 has a target size of 40 multiplied by the long range accuracy of the su76 of 0.025 and you have a 100% hit rate assuming those numbers are correct. In addition, the su76 scales far better than the puma due to its higher penetration at all ranges and ability to tank 3 at shots instead of 2. Don't get me wrong I consider both vehicles very cost effective . you just can't dismiss the su76 because it's penetration is lower than the main line tank destroyers. Both the puma and su76 fill the niche they are in just fine as stop tap light anti tank with the puma being a stronger counter to light vehicles and the su76 scaling better due to its effectiveness against medium tanks and longer range. The barrage is just extra And to be honest, I wouldn't be that bothered if they removed it entirely even without compensating buffs

for starters the panzer 4 has a target size exactly the same to that of the SU-76... which is 22... and an accuracy of .025... or 55% accuracy... coupled with subpar damage per shot and that SU-76 is going to have trouble even killing a panzer 4 now...

and if the puma/SU-76 are supposed to be stopgap AT vs light vehicles... then the puma is far superior in that sense to the SU-76 as the tests ive conducted suggest...

without 1 conscript supporting it... it is theoretically possible for a luchs to kill an SU-76 thanks to a combination of its lack of accuracy slightly slower speed and lack of a turret...

You don't even need a Luchs for that. The 222 can do that as well

Nevertheless the old saying also applies here: "Never leave your tank unprotected".
Especially if its a tank that cannot do shit against inf.

You don't even need a Luchs for that. The 222 can do that as well

Nevertheless the old saying also applies here: "Never leave your tank unprotected".
Especially if its a tank that cannot do shit against inf.

well if light AT is its role then it certainly underperforms against the puma... as id gladly 1v1 a stuart or a T-70 with a puma... but never a luchs or a 222 with a SU-76...

i wish the SU-76 had .4 long range accuracy more HP and 160 damage on its main gun... and had target weakpoint and stealth capabilities

And we'd move it to t4 and cost it at 400mp 135 fuel.

And we'd move it to t4 and cost it at 400mp 135 fuel.

that was sarcasm....

gbem, really excellent job to try to convince these guys to know that SU-76 is currently under power. I think your first idea sounds good to me. Here is why:
Since most of these people here agree that SU-76 is an AT Platform but not an AI vehicle, I did a test. From my pre-patch successful experience, if you want to make SU-76 lethal enough you have to build at least 4 of them. So the total resources cost is 1120 MP and 300 fuel, which is more than the cost of a JT or a elephant. The test is simple, try to compare the kill time that four su76s use to destroy two panthers, and one elephant plus one pak40( total of 1040 MP and 265 fuel) time to kill two t34/85s and one t34/76. The result was quite shocking even to myself since I have given up using Su76 after the recent patch. Su76s use the exact same time to kill two Panthers with tones of non-pen and misses, which when elephant and pak are killing t34s like chewing jelly. Please keep in mind, even after building the elephants and a pak, the total price is still lower than the total cost of 4 SUs; 2 Panthers have a total HP of 1920, and 2 t34/85 plus t34/76 have HP of 2320. Please point me out if there is anything wrong with the HP value and the cost.

At your level of play tanks just sit there shooting each other until one side is destroyed.

At a reasonable level of competency, tank destroyers kite and poke, whereas fast tanks will go for a flanking dive/rush, which makes comparing your skill level with the actual gameplay as accurate as comparing RPS to Chess.

At your level of play tanks just sit there shooting each other until one side is destroyed.

At a reasonable level of competency, tank destroyers kite and poke, whereas fast tanks will go for a flanking dive/rush, which makes comparing your skill level with the actual gameplay as accurate as comparing RPS to Chess.

a bit of a problem with that though when using the SU-76... for starters it lacks accuracy and even when its shots do hit it only does 120 damage... the old SU-76 at least compensated for its bad accuracy with high rate of fire and thus i employed it much like cavalry... a shock tank i would rush into the flanks of a big tank while the SU-85 snipes it/keeps it distracted/abuses its low target size to kite shots... and get out using its speed... it was essentially much like the puma... in its old role...

the patch however reduced its DPM and anti infantry potential respectively... which means it no longer fits its old role as cavalry... in fact it no longer fits any role efficiently... the puma is better at its supposed role as anti light vehicle/cavalry... and even kills infantry better when not using the barrage... in fact its soo bad at killing light vehicles now that when opponent brings out an SU-76 i simply just rush it and kill it... its simply that bad...

Puma and SU-76 are unit with completely different roles.

Puma has low accuracy and very penetration and needs to close or flank is to be effective vs medium and above.

Su-76 can snipe just fine at long range especially once it hit vet 2 which is easy to do due to low XP value.

It has high penetration, a barrage and is dirty cheap, the unit is cost efficient.

If you have trouble countering light vehicles use PTRS, mines and AT grenades.

Puma and SU-76 are unit with completely different roles.

Puma has low accuracy and very penetration and needs to close or flank is to be effective vs medium and above.

Su-76 can snipe just fine at long range especially once it hit vet 2 which is easy to do due to low XP value.

1. they used to be able to do the same roles... which was light AT... now the puma is simply better at that...

2. similar accuracy + judging by those numbers a slightly better accuracy curve... sure its pen is bad but its a really good cavalry tank

3. which would essentially make it a horrible version of an SU-85...

1. they used to be able to do the same roles... which was light AT... now the puma is simply better at that...

2. similar accuracy + judging by those numbers a slightly better accuracy curve... sure its pen is bad but its a really good cavalry tank

3. which would essentially make it a horrible version of an SU-85...

It's a horrible version of the SU85 because it costs 280/75 and comes in T3. SU85 comes in t4 and is 350/130.

It's a horrible version of the SU85 because it costs 280/75 and comes in T3. SU85 comes in t4 and is 350/130.

which would render it obsolete... besides its already soo bad at its medium tank destroyer role due to its horrible accuracy that mines + cons at nade + at guns are far more capable of destroying that first panzer 4 over an SU-76

1. they used to be able to do the same roles... which was light AT... now the puma is simply better at that...

2. similar accuracy + judging by those numbers a slightly better accuracy curve... sure its pen is bad but its a really good cavalry tank

3. which would essentially make it a horrible version of an SU-85...

You are entitled to your opinion even if it is so clearly wrong.

The fact remains that the need some changes (like higher XP value) but unit is cost efficient with its current performance.

Have little to add, bb.

The two main stated weaknesses of the vehicle are accuracy and dps. I'm not convinced that the either is a problem. You may do low damage per shot, and you only have a 55% chance to hit at max range against a p4 or similar target but penetration is guaranteed. Believe it or not, puma isn't just for flanking. In my opinion it's a great skirmishing vehicle because of its range relative to mediums and speed and handling but it cannot trade at close range and the turret traverse makes it very dangerous to try to get in close. As a plinker at max range, not only does the puma have the same "low" 55% chance to hit mediums, against most common targets it's chance to penetrate is only about half. Puma may have higher theoretical dps against targts that it autopenetrates like the su76(a big reason by your test was flawed, you should have done it using expected opponents) but actual dps at safe ranges against targets with any armor is poor. Yet despite the limitations of both vehicles I find each to be useful. If I can get away with substituting an su76 for an su85 in the late game I will to save fuel(that is, if I'm facing off against primarily tier 3 vehicle play). Honestly it just sounds like a learn to play issue.

Imo the biggest drawback of the su76 is its health and armour. Everything that can get in range is a threat, even things that don't have to get in range like the walking stuka is a threat... They are the definition of glass cannon. (but again, the su76 could have its barrage as a vet ability to make getting them in advance of enemy armour and pressing into arty less doable. It should be AT first, not an MG counter first. This also has the effect of weakening su76 spam by not having critical mass barrage on juicy targets. It has to be earned.

a bit of a problem with that though when using the SU-76... for starters it lacks accuracy and even when its shots do hit it only does 120 damage... the old SU-76 at least compensated for its bad accuracy with high rate of fire and thus i employed it much like cavalry... a shock tank i would rush into the flanks of a big tank while the SU-85 snipes it/keeps it distracted/abuses its low target size to kite shots... and get out using its speed... it was essentially much like the puma... in its old role...

the patch however reduced its DPM and anti infantry potential respectively... which means it no longer fits its old role as cavalry... in fact it no longer fits any role efficiently... the puma is better at its supposed role as anti light vehicle/cavalry... and even kills infantry better when not using the barrage... in fact its soo bad at killing light vehicles now that when opponent brings out an SU-76 i simply just rush it and kill it... its simply that bad...

SU-76 is there to poke your opponent at far range and jeopardy a potential rush. the unit is fast enough on backward to hit twice at max range before being really threatened. If you can rush a SU-76 and kill it, it only means the unit was overextending.
Old SU-76 was too good and could simply be used as main AT and Arty unit when spammed. Both Stug and SU-76 have been logically nerfed and cannot sit there and outperform more expensive units in there respective function.

SU-76 is still a excellent stop-gap vs Pz4 rush but you can't simply rely on it to deal with your opponent's armor. Which is great.

Build one to support your troops and then go T4 for more firepower.

which would render it obsolete... besides its already soo bad at its medium tank destroyer role due to its horrible accuracy that mines + cons at nade + at guns are far more capable of destroying that first panzer 4 over an SU-76

thats the point, higer tier units cost more and comes later and are better than lower tier untis, comapre puma with panther they almost have the same role (tank hunter) if u had the money to build a panther would u build a puma ? u generaly would back tech to puma if u really need a ceap flanker or for a stun, same for su 76 (mobile barrage unit, tracking or cheap support)