Spotting Scope on Elephants

Ok tested it out,on Langreskaya Winter,the Elefant can snipe anything in your base from the middle of the map,speciffically from the VP in the center...

Elefant with spotting scope and focus sight has longer LoS than his gun range (and it's really big because it's 100) so i assume his LoS totally is 150.

well considering the fact that its

a)A doctrinal only unit on a commander where half the stuff is useless except for the elephant.

b)VERY expensive and requires 5CP which means it comes in late game only

c)elephant immediately loses los whenever it turns

d)is the only solution to the su85 spammers

I would leave it as it is. Russians have the T70 recon mode too ....

well considering the fact that its

a)A doctrinal only unit on a commander where half the stuff is useless except for the elephant.

i wouldn't call the rest exactly useless. Especially recon run is very useful and combined with the 50kg bomb it is a very cost effective counter to anything that is stationary, especially howitzers (which are also expansive)

d)is the only solution to the su85 spammers

Just to repeat what i have said earlier. I don't think SU-85's should be able to spot that far for themself either. I wouldn't justify one OP thing with another OP thing that should rather be adressed too.

well considering the fact that its

a)A doctrinal only unit on a commander where half the stuff is useless except for the elephant.

b)VERY expensive and requires 5CP which means it comes in late game only

c)elephant immediately loses los whenever it turns

d)is the only solution to the su85 spammers

I would leave it as it is. Russians have the T70 recon mode too ....

i agree with everything you said except A (i guess D is kind of debateable too, but im not going to talk about su85s). i love every ability on that commander. even the riegel mine is amazing, the only problem is i rarely build a ht (or have the munitions) late in the game to plant them. 400 damage, 1000 penetration, guaranteed to immobilize. i forget the cost now, but i believe its cheaper than the regular AT mine. i think the only reason its not used more is it has to be placed by a halftrack and everyones too busy using scout planes and stukas. if anything, theres TOO many useful abilities, they end up competing with each other.


back on topic though, i tried to look up the stats for spotting scopes and the focus sight ability. i couldnt find the modifier for scopes, but focus sight does double the elefants sight. it starts at 35m, so thats 70m with sight on. i dont think scopes double it again. i never felt like i had 40m of sight past my max range. my guess is scopes are more like a 1.6-1.75 modifier

well i think elefant is fine it can't hit anything smaller than a tank. i used a elefant try to destroy an abandon AT gun, it never hits it, and i rarely see elefant kill any infantry, it fires slow like 10sec per shot, and lost scope bonus if it turns, also i find elefant take alot damage from IL-2 Precision Bomb Strike and due to elefant is so slow it can't get out from that airstrike at all.

Abilities that enable long range units to spot for themselves is just piss poor design and on the Elefant it's downright ridiculous.

An Elefant can effectively shut down SU85s - that is a problem because the SU85 is the only effective Soviet AT in the late game.

I think exactly the same, the whole game design on both factions is a problem on some parts. But I didn't said anything because there was too much coh1 bitterness...

The Elephant should be more like the Jadgpanther from coh 1 (and you'll need to rebalance AT guns and SU-85).

The problem with the Elefant is not the Elefant itself in my opinion but the Jaeger armor Doctrine.

The assessment of some that the doctrine is useless in general seems somewhat ill-informed.

1 CP Riegel, while costly it can be very effective to secure a flank and prevent flanks targeted at taking out the Elefant.

2 CP Recon flight, while made mostly redundant by the Elefant, Spotting Scope and Focus Sight combination it is still useful especially combined with the Stuka Bombing Strike. The reason why it is very useful is the fact that according to the devs the 152mm Howitzer should be a rather useful countered to the Elefant but it's instantly counter by a Stuka Bomb and the Recon.

3 Spotting Scope, while not a huge problem on most other tanks, it grants the Elefant with Focus Sight 150 sight range (according to Barton).

5 Stuka Bombing Run, see the remarks on the Recon Flight.

In summation. It's the doctrine design that seems somewhat flawed since it completely negates the use of one of the suggested counters to the Elefant.

I've used this doctrine very effectively in 2v2s games. Straight up there is no unit that can kill the Elephant head on. Flanking can be negated with Riegels or normal mines.

With the arty counter out of the equation, the only counter, that I used to employ when playing as Soviets, is to try to disable the main gun by ramming the Elefant. Due to the recent changes to ramming this has become a rather risky venture. If successful a SU85 stands a chance at taking it out, if the Elefant remains unsupported over time.

I think it's fair to say that most people would prefer long range sniper units to be different than spotting units. Allowing the elephant (or su-85 or anything for that matter) to spot for itself is just missing a great opportunity for synergy.

I think it's fair to say that most people would prefer long range sniper units to be different than spotting units. Allowing the elephant (or su-85 or anything for that matter) to spot for itself is just missing a great opportunity for synergy.

Excellent point.

The problem with the Elefant is not the Elefant itself in my opinion but the Jaeger armor Doctrine.

The assessment of some that the doctrine is useless in general seems somewhat ill-informed.

2 CP Recon flight, while made mostly redundant by the Elefant, Spotting Scope and Focus Sight combination it is still useful especially combined with the Stuka Bombing Strike. The reason why it is very useful is the fact that according to the devs the 152mm Howitzer should be a rather useful countered to the Elefant but it's instantly counter by a Stuka Bomb and the Recon.

In summation. It's the doctrine design that seems somewhat flawed since it completely negates the use of one of the suggested counters to the Elefant.

Recon flight + bombing strike = 80 + 160=240MU if u use that mine is like 60MU each which is very expansive. today in a game, i used elefant and enemy use 152mm to counter me in a 3v3 game. the fight is long, and i lost 5 out 6 elefant total 4 of them is from 152mm and 1 due to heavily damaged by 152mm and got flanked during retreat. main problem i have is not enough MU to keep use that combo strike as battle is intense.

also there is another counter from russian to elefant is strike bombing and it is pretty hard for elefant to avoid it as elefant is slow that strike come pretty quick. (quicker than Stuka bombing i felt)

I just lost a 2v2 to this. It's some pretty hardcore cheese. Without picking the right doctrine, I have no idea how you're supposed to counter it on certain maps. The thing had LOS on a huge radius of the map. In a vacuum, maybe you could counter it with Guard button plus an SU-85 plus AT guns. But it's not like you'll ever be fighting it unsupported against anyone with a brain. I had the ISU-152, and it was rendered completely worthless because the elefant was trashing it at equal range. Our SU-85s had no chance against it either. With that and the recon runs, the other team had constant line of sight to pretty much the entire map to see where we were positioned.

Whenever I manage to kill an elefant, it's usually when catching it on retreat with a button (rare) or by hitting it with the howitzer. As others have mentioned, the unit itself is fine, but it's a problem when combined with the rest of the doctrine.

@pewpew: Please, correct me if I'm wrong. But wherent you one of the people constantly replying to previous SU85 concerns with the response "simple flank it"?

Nullist, please correct me if I'm wrong. But (sic)wherent you one of the people constantly replying to EVERYTHING with the response "whiners?"

To be frank, the SU-85 is flankable, and has been for a while, and now it's even more flankable. It is literally the tank that's the most easily flanked.

As for the Elephant, it is not so easily flanked unless the player pushes it too far forward, and the map has enough sight and shot blockers. And even then, anything capable of hurting it has to brave all the support units, and German tanks that can take it out. A basic T-34 isn't going to be enough to take it out no matter how much it flanks.

I saw disallow spotting scopes on elephants and instead give it a

I just came from a 3v3 where the enemy team got 3 elephants with spotting scopes and we could move up anything to deal with them, no infantry, no vehicles of any kind. Even throwing everything we had at them with Mark Target wasn't enough. And they were doing this with little in the way of support units up front to spot for them.

The game devolved into a tower defense game for them, and that requires no skill.

Nullist, please correct me if I'm wrong. But (sic)wherent you one of the people constantly replying to EVERYTHING with the response "whiners?"

To be frank, the SU-85 is flankable, and has been for a while, and now it's even more flankable. It is literally the tank that's the most easily flanked.

As for the Elephant, it is not so easily flanked unless the player pushes it too far forward, and the map has enough sight and shot blockers. And even then, anything capable of hurting it has to brave all the support units, and German tanks that can take it out. A basic T-34 isn't going to be enough to take it out no matter how much it flanks.

I saw disallow spotting scopes on elephants and instead give it a

I just came from a 3v3 where the enemy team got 3 elephants with spotting scopes and we could move up anything to deal with them, no infantry, no vehicles of any kind. Even throwing everything we had at them with Mark Target wasn't enough. And they were doing this with little in the way of support units up front to spot for them.

The game devolved into a tower defense game for them, and that requires no skill.

i like how in balance discussions the su85 is always so easy to flank and never has support, but the elefant is unflankable and has unlimited support. stop "throwing everything you had at them", expecting to kill an elefant. use some tactics. weaken them up with indirect fire and call ins. dont charge head on just because you have a blob of su85s or t34s.

you can also abuse the fact that elefants like to target infantry. get your tanks out of sight, move up 1 con. elefants will all turn to fire at him. move in behind. watch as the elefants slowly turn around and pathing screws them over.

Nullist, please correct me if I'm wrong. But (sic)wherent you one of the people constantly replying to EVERYTHING with the response "whiners?"

I very rarely use the term, except when directed at really seriously QQ posts with nothing else in them than that, that anyone can recognise and agree on as being pure "whine".

So no, you are confusing me with someone else.

Many of my posts are like 500-1k words long.

You wheren't here posting during the SU85 threads, so you dont seem to know the context or content of those discussions.

In CoH1 no units could do that, it's simply bad game design (same for the SU-85 with focused sight even though now it moves slowly at least). All units needed a forward spotter to fire at max range.

You can't win with an ISU-152, against an elefant in a vakuum I guess
Yesterday a soviet player, tried to ram my elefant with three T-34... all three failed

i like how in balance discussions the su85 is always so easy to flank and never has support, but the elefant is unflankable and has unlimited support. stop "throwing everything you had at them", expecting to kill an elefant. use some tactics. weaken them up with indirect fire and call ins. dont charge head on just because you have a blob of su85s or t34s.

you can also abuse the fact that elefants like to target infantry. get your tanks out of sight, move up 1 con. elefants will all turn to fire at him. move in behind. watch as the elefants slowly turn around and pathing screws them over.

Stop being ignorant Woof. Flanking with a tank is a bit differnt than flanking with a tank destroyer.
I wonder how many Elephants you've killed using your theories. Can you provide competetive replay to show it?

I do know how to deal with Elephant theoreticly but theory and reality are different in this case. I've met Elephants in circa 20 games so far and I've managed to destroy whole 3-5 of them, not sure about the number, mostly due to opponent over extending itself.
On some maps you can ignore it and move to the next point but there are some on which Elephant is a king of the hill.
The unit itself is not that bad. It's the scope upgrade that needs to be look at.