Sick/bored of MG42 -.-

wow... i digged through this whole thread and i have to say i am a little shocked right now.

shame on this community for behaving like in this thread!
and i don't know about moderation rules but, onkelsam, the direct personal bashing based on someones linked(!) stats should have made you or any moderator do something. it simply goes too far and isnt any help for this growing community at all.

what influence has play time or (fractual) player stats on someones opinion when he got a legid and clear point.

the increase to 4 men for Ostheer support weapons was made for a reason and won't be reverted. period.
underlining that and getting negated as a fanboi and freely torn apart by people who doesnt seem to know that and why this change was made in the first place ist just sad.

the only mg42 specific facts i read about in this topic are firing arc and supression rate.
line of sight also includes the maxim.
the rediclious videos showing the ineffectivness of flanking i see more of a problem of the bad close range performance of the Nosin Nagant / Kar98K and the whoopy doopy performance of molotovs rather than an unbalanced uber effectiveness of the MG42.

nullist pointed out that the mg42 never has been buffed except the reasonable crew increase and stated that there shouldnt and most likely wont be nerf bombs coming for this weapon so many people here calling for. and for a reason.

reason... a thing i was missing i many posts especially in replies to his comments.

I dont always agree on nullists thoughts and i am certainly not okay with how he expresses himself sometimes. he actually digs into the game and its machanics and therefore knows 1 or 2 things about this game and can sound arrogant sometimes when trying to bring in this knowledge.

that he is getting contra for this, fine.
but that he is getting a bashing like this right under the eyes of an admin is a no go.

so now go on try calling me a fanboy and make a moron out of yourself.

ace4sure is also my steam nick. i am no pro, i only have an average play time thanks to woman and work and still i know much more about this game than you (excluding relic devs ofc).

regerds (from france)
ace

P.S. trying to get internet in france sucks ass.

Sound like Nullist got an alt account i can smell the same tone in this post...

Thanks, man. But no worries, I have thick internet skin.

Couple of weeks and I expect we'll have the patch. Endeav seemed to know whats being considered for HMGs, and if he's happy with it, its probably good.

So far I think all the patches have been good. None of them have gone "backwards", and there is a clear linear and organised progression and plan in them that is obvious to even someone who isnt on the "inside" of the process.

Infact Ive been really quite seriously impressed with them, and I am guy who is usually extremely critical of Dev decisions.

Theres just still a lot of ironing out left to do, even considering the extended and intensive community betas. Havent even begun to touch on Doctrines, Vet abilities and Bulletins, which personally I am most looking forward to, since those are where CoH2 can really start developing some character and flavor, and where the meta can properly start to flourish.

@Voltar: If youd have lurked for longer, youd know that Ace4sure knows tremendous amounts about the internal mechanics of CoH2. Much more than I do. Hes been very helpful in providing the community with data, which is hard to come by in this game since tooltips etc are so limited, using his own time to delve through the code for us.

Dunno how you could even remotely think we are the same person. Im a dedicated asshole, hes always been a gentleman.

Sorry. I believe I am the de facto owner of most entitled arrogant prick title around here. Get off my turf.

Sorry. I believe I am the de facto owner of most entitled arrogant prick title around here. Get off my turf.

Okidoki, Your Assholiness!

But if you fuck up, ima gonna getcha!

pretty quiet here now...

i agree with you on the patch progression so far. as i said before it feels very professional and straight forward. I also much appriciate pq's and all other devs effort to keep this process as transparent as possible.

and as you i am also looking forward to the development of the game once the basic elements are straightend and balanced out and more facettes are brought to the game by the commanders. like i said in a different thread: the design and implementation of coh2 from what i have seen so far looks very promising to me that this gonna happen quite fluidly.

on topic i just want point out that relic is working on a patch regarding all weapon teams and to me thats the completely right approach.

i also feel that the mg42 is too dominant right now but as i see it and as i already wrote i dont feel its a problem to nail only on this weapon even if the supression might be heavy not speaking of that stupid Bulletin. but the problem is not that you get instantly killed by the mg42 (like by a KV-8). the problem is to counter the mg42 and since its the first weapon team that hits the field the issue starts to shine here.

flanking as s counter is pretty unrewarding in general with regular infantry not only vs the mg42. as already noted thats a intended design decision by relic cause flanking in coh1 is more deadly than anything. though i think that nosin nagant and the kar98k could be a little more effective, i like it cause it enforces counter units instead of playing with 5 to 6 Conscripts/Grenadiers and to me thats always a good thing.

the problem is that the counters arn't that effective neither.
Mortars, scout cars, CC infantry, snipers for example can't pressure enough on enemy team weapons in my eyes.

So either look at those counter units or look at weapon teams in general instead if hammering on the mg42 alone. and thats what relic is doing and i am looking forward to what they come up with.

regards
ace

I guess its a matter of different oppinions, but im no big fan of a gameplaystyle where hard counters are rewarded, and smart maneuvering isnt as much. Outmaneuvering an MG should be rewarding, and in my oppinion, this is what made vCOH so fun and made it last so long. It wasnt just about producing the right counters, but how most units could be usefull in any given situation if used right.

Sure, we can all go mortarspam or clowncars the minute we see MGs, and we can all have a fixed buildorder to win against certain tactics, but do people really think that is fun? Personally I preferred the infantryplay that rewarded flanking, and punished MGspam. Manouvering should be important.

I don't really see MGs in themselves, as they are, as a big problem right now, it's other mechanics that need tuning.

Early small arms fire needs to be more deadly so you actually have a good shot at killing an MG when you make it inside its arc. The soviets have molotovs, they help, but I think we need to up the killing power of basic infantry just a bit.

Building cover is also too good, even against molotovs people will happily let their MGs eat one and blow away the flankers. It should be possible to kill units in building using only basic infantry by proper positioning(attacking from a side with limited windows).

what i liked about coh1 is the tactical usage of combined arms. positioning and manouvering certainly is a part of it and specificly flanking is very effective but also isn't the dominating factor in coh1.

i also feel that the performance of nosin nagant and kar98k is pretty bad at closer ranges. the result is as seen in many vids: you flank a team weapon, get close, nothing happens. team weapon packs up, runs away, you chase, still nothing happens.
true, this looks stupid and it feels stupid. and though i hope this will change but it is not going to be like in coh1 ever (design decision).

the reason why i think it is a good decision is because i dont like the alternative scenario you describe. the "infantry play" as you name it is nothing else than plain inf spam. its boring and for me though a suberb game coh1 was missing a little in deverisfied weapons besides basic infantry.

seeing the basic infantry (= cons/grens) in coh2 their perks are movability and field presence. counters to these perks are supression and pinning which is what an MG can provide. so for me it's counter-intuitive to react with even more regular infantry to a weapon which is meant to negate their main perks. A mortar would fit much better in my eyes cause it can exploit the weakness of MGs being stationary, or a scout car which is not effected by supression, and etc.

and those units are no hard counters. they are all combat effective besides the said scenario. start to mix them up and we have combined arms gameplay with importance shifted towards more deversified weapons instead of basic infantry doing all the damage.

Regards
ace

I think the way to improve MG42 gameplay and make it viable is to make the pinning the same as Maxims (remove this pin bulletin completely), reduce its firing arc by around 20 degrees so it is not possible to block approach on certain maps (eg. Minsk pocket, Rzhev Spring) with 2 MGs and what's the most important make it so when flanked correctly MG42 have two choices really. Retreat or die.

what if Conscripts had smoke nades??

It would make flanking easier, but still unrewarding due to the absymal damage they do the the MG.

I think the way to improve MG42 gameplay and make it viable is to make the pinning the same as Maxims (remove this pin bulletin completely), reduce its firing arc by around 20 degrees so it is not possible to block approach on certain maps (eg. Minsk pocket, Rzhev Spring) with 2 MGs and what's the most important make it so when flanked correctly MG42 have two choices really. Retreat or die.

why not remove Germans completely and have a soviet civil war ?

6 man squads cough , faster maxim setup time and packup cough , more dps cough

Frankly, it's all about the small arms damage. It's not that hard to flank an MG42, the problem is it doesn't actually die or even need to retreat whenever you do (which is just retarded). Just a buff to this would be fine.

This could lead to a problem with penal battalions in cars though.

why not remove Germans completely and have a soviet civil war ?

6 man squads cough , faster maxim setup time and packup cough , more dps cough

As was pointed out in the other thread, the maxim's DPS is actually smaller at close to mid range and only marginally bigger at mid to long range.

what i liked about coh1 is the tactical usage of combined arms. positioning and manouvering certainly is a part of it and specificly flanking is very effective but also isn't the dominating factor in coh1.

i also feel that the performance of nosin nagant and kar98k is pretty bad at closer ranges. the result is as seen in many vids: you flank a team weapon, get close, nothing happens. team weapon packs up, runs away, you chase, still nothing happens.
true, this looks stupid and it feels stupid. and though i hope this will change but it is not going to be like in coh1 ever (design decision).

the reason why i think it is a good decision is because i dont like the alternative scenario you describe. the "infantry play" as you name it is nothing else than plain inf spam. its boring and for me though a suberb game coh1 was missing a little in deverisfied weapons besides basic infantry.

seeing the basic infantry (= cons/grens) in coh2 their perks are movability and field presence. counters to these perks are supression and pinning which is what an MG can provide. so for me it's counter-intuitive to react with even more regular infantry to a weapon which is meant to negate their main perks. A mortar would fit much better in my eyes cause it can exploit the weakness of MGs being stationary, or a scout car which is not effected by supression, and etc.

and those units are no hard counters. they are all combat effective besides the said scenario. start to mix them up and we have combined arms gameplay with importance shifted towards more deversified weapons instead of basic infantry doing all the damage.

Regards
ace

I have to disagree with you about COH1 flanking making infantry more spammable. The main problem in vCOH, in my oppinion, was elite units "supersprinting" thus making MGs and Bunkers useless. If a player was spamming regulaier infantry an mass at well prepared machinegunpositions he would be chewed up without dealing much damage. Thats how I think COH2 should be as well, if the russian player spams conscripts, wich he often does, I can easily punish him by ambushing large forces of infantry, though not inflicting all that much damage. If he outmanouvers me, however, I wount be punished that much. I see that as a big problem.

Manouevering infantry tacticly smart to outflank the enemy has little to do with spamming, and spamming wouldnt be effective against MGs, as long as they are kept as they are, though more voulnerable to flanking.

But I guess people have different ideas about how the game should be. As you say, to you its counterintuitive that MGs could be countered by infantry, while for meg its the most natural thing in the world that an MG should be powerful while confronted head on, and nearly helpless if attacked in the flank or rear by an infantryunit. To me, it makes the gameplay more fun and varried, while also much more realistic. vCOH nailed that in many ways, and it seems to me that a lot of people fell the exact same way.

As was pointed out in the other thread, the maxim's DPS is actually smaller at close to mid range and only marginally bigger at mid to long range.

To be exact:

At ranges 0-10, Maxim does 86% of MG42 DPS.

At at range 18 it goes ahead of MG42 in terms of DPS.

At max range (45) it does 170% of MG42 DPS

As was pointed out in the other thread, the maxim's DPS is actually smaller at close to mid range and only marginally bigger at mid to long range.

You can't argue with him,arguing with him is like talking to your dog

But you should talk to your dog. It makes it happy.

You're right,plus the dog is less anoying

To be exact:

At ranges 0-10, Maxim does 86% of MG42 DPS.

At at range 18 it goes ahead of MG42 in terms of DPS.

At max range (45) it does 170% of MG42 DPS

Another way of putting it, at close range the MG-42 does 26 damage as opposed to 23, while at max range the Maxim does about 5.5 damage as opposed to 3ish, IIRC. I kind of think the long-range damage is mooted by the difference in how close a squad needs to be to grenade the unit.

Right now, maxims are OK against p-gren spam if they're pointed the right way but have very little functionality otherwise.