So does no one care that Relic is recycling maps?

Conversions of working vCoH maps, good.
2v2 maps shoehorned as 1v1 maps, bad.
Public Worldbuilder and player made maps, best.

The lack of competitive COH2 1v1 maps is a problem both in multiplayer automatch as well as in tournaments and leagues. Relic porting in tried-and-trusted map formats from COH1 (Sem, Ang, Lang) is a smart move. Even Blizzard ported "Lost Temple" into SC2 at launch. Here's why porting competition maps from COH1 into COH2 is a good idea:

1) It is incredibly difficult to build a balanced, non-symmetrical map for Company of Heroes. In the 7 years that we had COH1, only that tiny handful of maps (Sem Ang Lang) proved they were good enough for competition.

2) COH2 Balance between the armies is in its infancy. The armies themselves are very challenging to balance. This process is complicated by the fact that we are not sure if the maps are balanced. At beta, the only real decent map we had was Kholodny Winter. How could we balance the armies on that map? For one, it's cold tech, which complicates things even further. Porting these old map formats will help Relic and top players balance the actual armies.

3) New maps take months and months of testing to perfect. Semois, Angoville, and Langres are the products of almost 7 years of balance testing. Each one of those maps has changed a great deal since its inception; in pathing, house positions, and even sector layouts. New COH2 maps will go through this process as well, but they are starting at zero.

4) Porting old maps does not mean that new maps are not being developed at the same time. They are.

5) Not only do you get a map layout that is tried and true, but as we saw with Langreskaya, you also get that layout in a Winter version. This will help balance and develop the cold tech mechanics, if they can be looked at independently of map balance. It's one less variable to worry about when you're looking at Cold Tech.

6) Porting old layouts that we know work for COH is cost-effective.

With Kholodny Summer, Langreskaya, and Semois in a map pool, for the first time I could imagine a large $$ eSports event for COH2. Hopefully Angoville and a host of new maps will join them in the future.

I would generally tend to agree with you here if it were not for the fact arguably the best map from the old game was user created as part of the WorlBuilder competition.
I have no doubt that relic is capable of creating it's own really good maps but I am also certain that the community can provide (probably) much much more. I fail to see how keeping us in the dark and periodically releasing recycled maps with 'skaya' tacked on to them amounts to a sensible policy - at least when providing new maps and balance is concerned.

I can only hope that a WB release is going to be part of this livestream event tomorrow. And not just Semoiskaya *shudder*

Why would we care if Relic are adding new maps? A map is a map, I'm sure that they will also add some new original maps. But at the moment it's great to have a variety.

Would you rather have no CoH maps and just the maps that the game shipped with? I think not. Variety is good at the moment, and new maps such as Semois can only add to the variety and to the games fun factor.

With the addition of a map builder (Hopefully sooner rather than later) would be great of course, but at the moment this is what we're stuck with.

Nobody is questioning the value of having more maps to play on. The real issue is why the worldbuilder is not a priority so user-made maps can be being created at the same time as Relic 'remastering' the old VCoH ones.

It's just more productive that way.

Lord Lovat, please stop your bitching. The guys creating the worldbuilder tool for the community (Programmers) are most likely not the same guys who create maps (designers). Both parts are being worked on, the WB tool will be released once it is stable on every machine. Most dev tools are usually not optimized etc. I am sure they're polishing the tool and release it when its time.
In the meanwhile let the designers do their job and release maps. Don't mix up both processes, cause they are not correlated too much.

Idd.

The ladder has already been relegated to the community.
The replay optimisation has already been relegated to the community.
The lack of lobby has already been relegated to the community.

Why not continue the trend and relegate map design to the community too, with Worldbuilder.

Lord Lovat, please stop your bitching. The guys creating the worldbuilder tool for the community (Programmers) are most likely not the same guys who create maps (designers). Both parts are being worked on, the WB tool will be released once it is stable on every machine. Most dev tools are usually not optimized etc. I am sure they're polishing the tool and release it when its time.
In the meanwhile let the designers do their job and release maps. Don't mix up both processes, cause they are not correlated too much.

please don't attack me personally - I have mentioned nobody directly and am just expressing my opinions on a company policy and how I feel it could be approved upon. take your personal views on 'bitching' somewhere else, they are not needed here.

In response to the rest of your post. I agree, I would much rather have an optimises version of the WB than a buggy one - we all used the original one, right?

As I stated before in my post (I am not at odds with designers making maps so in the meantime i am happy for them to 'do their jobs' as you say)

My point was (if you missed it) was that the maps are surely being created on a version of the WB - which seems to be stable enough to create maps good enough for competitive play so why not release it. Now, you say you 'are sure they are polishing the tool' and that may be the case - but even that implies that you know as little about it as I do...

its the secrecy that is baffling.

What secrecy? It's being worked on. What do you want, a release date? It's been said time and again why companies don't give release dates for new features. Don't know what you're after here.

please don't attack me personally - I have mentioned nobody directly and am just expressing my opinions on a company policy and how I feel it could be approved upon. take your personal views on 'bitching' somewhere else, they are not needed here.

In response to the rest of your post. I agree, I would much rather have an optimises version of the WB than a buggy one - we all used the original one, right?

As I stated before in my post (I am not at odds with designers making maps so in the meantime i am happy for them to 'do their jobs' as you say)

My point was (if you missed it) was that the maps are surely being created on a version of the WB - which seems to be stable enough to create maps good enough for competitive play so why not release it. Now, you say you 'are sure they are polishing the tool' and that may be the case - but even that implies that you know as little about it as I do...

its the secrecy that is baffling.

I am not attacking you personally, i am just asking you to stop crying. Because in every thread that is slightly map related you bring up the Worldbuilder topic and cry about it. Even if there is no correlation, as in this thread, which is about a map that has been produced by the map design team, and has nothing to do with programming a tool.

They won't release the WB, before it is stable on the majority of machines and has a minimum amount of comfort in the UI. Nor will they give a release date, for reasons given in other threads. Just because they have a version that is running on a few machines which they can babysit doesn't mean it is ready for release.

What secrecy? It's being worked on. What do you want, a release date? It's been said time and again why companies don't give release dates for new features. Don't know what you're after here.

err..more information..

I'm really confused as to why you guys think I should be after less information??

I am not attacking you personally, i am just asking you to stop crying. Because in every thread that is slightly map related you bring up the Worldbuilder topic and cry about it. Even if there is no correlation, as in this thread, which is about a map that has been produced by the map design team, and has nothing to do with programming a tool.

They won't release the WB, before it is stable on the majority of machines and has a minimum amount of comfort in the UI. Nor will they give a release date, for reasons given in other threads. Just because they have a version that is running on a few machines which they can babysit doesn't mean it is ready for release.

So you mean to tell me the new map (Made in the COH2 WB) has no relation to the WB. no relation at all?? are you sure?....

I admit, my desire for the worldbuilder may be a bit over-zealous for a few. But look at it from out point of view. We aren't linked to Relic the same way you guys are. We can't all sit around wryly smiling saying - chill out man.. soon..

But that's not my biggest problem. I guess the fact that things just get regurgitated now and we are expected to be happy with that. The maps are free, I understand, But still I don't exactly see the merits of lending high praise to the recycling of an existing map. where's the new stuff?? you know what I mean?
I mean if they make a CoH3 then how long will we have to wait while they port. Semois, Ango, Langres, Kholodny, Moscow OS etc.

Mod support has been disabled for Coh2 right (unless I am mistaken). And I fear that mapping will go the same way. I am immensely worried that the reason it is taking so long to get information on ANYTHING involving this game is because the answers are not favourable (and I'm not talking about timeframes)

In the meantime, I will try to limit my 'crying...' about the worldbuilder.

Let's just hope we're not getting shafted.

err..more information..

I'm really confused as to why you guys think I should be after less information??



So you mean to tell me the new map (Made in the COH2 WB) has no relation to the WB. no relation at all?? are you sure?....

I admit, my desire for the worldbuilder may be a bit over-zealous for a few. But look at it from out point of view. We aren't linked to Relic the same way you guys are. We can't all sit around wryly smiling saying - chill out man.. soon..

But that's not my biggest problem. I guess the fact that things just get regurgitated now and we are expected to be happy with that. The maps are free, I understand, But still I don't exactly see the merits of lending high praise to the recycling of an existing map. where's the new stuff?? you know what I mean?
I mean if they make a CoH3 then how long will we have to wait while they port. Semois, Ango, Langres, Kholodny, Moscow OS etc.

Mod support has been disabled for Coh2 right (unless I am mistaken). And I fear that mapping will go the same way. I am immensely worried that the reason it is taking so long to get information on ANYTHING involving this game is because the answers are not favourable (and I'm not talking about timeframes)

In the meantime, I will try to limit my 'crying...' about the worldbuilder.

Let's just hope we're not getting shafted.

They already said they will eventually release the worlbuilder. If you think from another point of view like you say, maybe you'll realise that porting an already designed map isn't nearly as time consuming as building a new one, and a portion of the community really likes them so it's really nice of Relic that they take a little bit of time to please that part of the community. If you don't like the old maps, don't worry because new ones are being worked on at the same time.

If you're after more information, you have to understand that they don't give timeframes because you're gonna be the first to be pissed if they're late. So if you really want more information, I'm afraid that the only way to get it is by applying for a job at Relic.

And how does running a fansite enables us to sit around smiling and saying to chill out? We want new features even more than you because we're trying to organise things like tournaments, where a whole bunch of new tools would really help. Other tournament organisers, streamers and shoutcasters all want and need these things probably more than you, but even they don't whine about it all the time because that doesn't help. It just brings negativity and people start to dislike you.

They already said they will eventually release the worlbuilder. If you think from another point of view like you say, maybe you'll realise that porting an already designed map isn't nearly as time consuming as building a new one, and a portion of the community really likes them so it's really nice of Relic that they take a little bit of time to please that part of the community. If you don't like the old maps, don't worry because new ones are being worked on at the same time.

I'll repeat it again, I have no (that's NO) problems with old maps being ported across or new ones being made...

We want new features even more than you because we're trying to organise things like tournaments, where a whole bunch of new tools would really help. Other tournament organisers, streamers and shoutcasters all want and need these things probably more than you, but even they don't whine about it all the time because that doesn't help. It just brings negativity and people start to dislike you.

Your (or anyone elses)contribution to the competitive multiplayer aspect of this game makes you want the features more than me? that's an absurd supposition to make.

I bring up these points again and again because I sorely want to contribute to the community of this game as much as I am able. I cannot cast, nor am I an amazing player. I do not organise tournaments or create leader boards, I can only make maps, and I look forward to doing so. So do me a favour and stop trying to answer my questions with your opinions. Nice one.

Your (or anyone elses)contribution to the competitive multiplayer aspect of this game makes you want the features more than me? that's an absurd supposition to make.

I bring up these points again and again because I sorely want to contribute to the community of this game as much as I am able. I cannot cast, nor am I an amazing player. I do not organise tournaments or create leader boards, I can only make maps, and I look forward to doing so. So do me a favour and stop trying to answer my questions with your opinions. Nice one.

I'm not even talking about the competitive scene, where did you get that? I'm talking about organizers, shoutcasters and all the other content creators. All the events, shoutcasts, guides or newsposts are done by people like you who put time into it, and they're the first people who have to cope with the absence of a spectator or -dev mode for example. Try to create a cool highlight with an in-game picture with the tools at our (by our I mean you, or me, or anybody else) disposal right now and you'll see how people who make all that stuff want these features more than you. That's not even an assumption or an opinion.

Anyway, you've resumed it pretty well. You don't do anything except whining. If you really wanted to "contribute to the community of this game as much as [you are] able" you could become a writer or an artist, help organize tournaments etc. It doesn't require secret skills and almost anyone could do that. The worldbuidler will then come and nothing will stop you from creating maps. Why don't you do that instead of complaining?

The fact that certain olds maps haven't been included is actually the very reason I've hardly played any CoH2 at all. I'm very happy to see old maps return.

I'm pretty alone here, but there are WAY too few 6p and 8p maps for those enjoyable Comp-stomps, and transplanting maps from the Western Front to the Eastern front somewhat detracts from the immersion. I hardly expect to be rolling T34s down the Bocage...

Although I accept that more = better for the "community", the sheer amount of copies sold vs online players shows that obsessing over 1v1 maps isn't necessarily for the best.

I welcome the old maps, they were awesome and I don't understand why you're "offended" that they're bringing back well tested competitive and fun maps.

btw why isn't Kholodny on 2v2 automatch anymore? it seemed to play nice
and why 3 out of 4 games I end playing Moscow outskirt (vanilla or winter)??

I don't see the problem. We are getting new maps, this is being done in addition to those. And chances are they are just as good or maybe better than whatever else they are working on. Plus it takes not nearly as much time.

Imagine you are saving up to upgrade your Radeon 6950 with a really expensive $1000 GTX Titan. But your 6950 gets fried and its going to be a few months before you can get that Titan you've been wanting. You've really been wanting to get Rome 2 thats coming out in a few days and you've already preordered it. A friend just upgraded and will sell you his old GTX 560 for pretty cheap, like $75. You still want to eventually get that Titan, but for that really cheap investment you can almost immediately get that card from your friend. You can save that $75 but its such a negligible amount to the total $1000 you need, so why not give yourself something to do while you are waiting?

Except in this case, the temporary fix (Semois) will likely be better than the other maps they are planning anyways. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

So does no one care that Relic is recycling maps?

I care, it's excellent and I care enough that I will play more of CoH2 just to play on the old vcoh maps because they are great!

I care, it's excellent and I care enough that I will play more of CoH2 just to play on the old vcoh maps because they are great!

I can't wait to watch your stream again Sepha!