Soviet Sniper Fixed ?

@Ekko: The armor differential works better as a hp pool equaliser on larger units, such as 6cons vs 4 grens. But when we are talking about one model taking the entirety of an opposing infantry units fire, it gets pretty dicey. The larger the sample, the more likely it is the ratio will ultimately equal out. When there is only one target with that many incoming shots...

@Omega: You yourself where talking about the difference of 1 to 2 models from infantry fire. My post was directed at that. I didnt forget Johans post, it just wasnt YOUR post.

At Vet3, Sov Sniper pulls even further ahead, with 2.25 Armormon BOTH models, whereas 4 Armor on Ost single Sniper.

@Omega: You yourself where talking about the difference of 1 to 2 models from infantry fire. My post was directed at that. I didnt forget Johans post, it just wasnt YOUR post.

My original post was just stating that if you increase the health so that the snipers are more resistent to explosive and fire damage, you would in turn need to reduce it's armor so it doesn't become too resistent to small arms.

BTW doesn't all the infantry models have the same amount of HP with different armor values. If that's the case then I don't see relic changing the health of any of the units any time soon.

All of the infantry have 80hp with exception of sniper models who have 40hp.

Edit: The German sniper needs to have more armor since conscripts have Oorah whereas German infantry do not (doctrinal ability does not count). Even with an hp buff the german sniper would be quite limited in its use as it would need to stand near an MG42 to feel safe, whereas Soviet sniper can attack-move run around the map (assuming no car on either side).

Side-note: Can anyone explain to me why German sniper does not have flare (and also why the pioneer does not have demo charges)?

I think Ost Sniper is justified with both 80hp and the current armor, owing to it being a single model, and therefore unreinforceable, as well as how Armor scales on the Sov Sniper with Vet to the result of 2x 2.25 armor models mirrored with a single 4 armor model.

What does Vet have to do with that.

Its a factor of damage done (or received), not the cost of the killed unit.

Actually, vet is based on damage done/received as well as xp based on scoring a kill, which seems to be based on cost of the unit. This isn't very transparent on Relic's part but you can clearly see it when, for example, snipers vet up quicker by killing enemy snipers instead of just ordinary infantry. Watch the German sniper in this replay: http://www.gamereplays.org/companyofheroes2/replays.php?game=83&show=details&id=287137

Actually, vet is based on damage done/received as well as xp based on scoring a kill, which seems to be based on cost of the unit. This isn't very transparent on Relic's part but you can clearly see it when, for example, snipers vet up quicker by killing enemy snipers instead of just ordinary infantry. Watch the German sniper in this replay: http://www.gamereplays.org/companyofheroes2/replays.php?game=83&show=details&id=287137

kills have nothing to do with xp. only damage dealt and recieved. you get 75% xp for dealing damage and 25% for recieving. i believe this is the formula to determine how much xp is given.

Units value = 2*Manpower +10*Fuel

that would be for taking 100% of an entities hp, then the 75% for damage dealt would be applied. obviously dealing damage equal to half of their hp would give you half that amount. that formula works for entire squads or individual entities and vehicles.

for example, a gren squad and a conscript squad both have 240*2=480 xp value. if you killed the entire squad you would get 75% of that. one gren entity has a value of 120 compared to 80 for cons. so killing 1 gren gives 90 xp while a con gives 60. losing 1 gren would then give 30 and losing a con would give 20.

the only reason i mention kills there is because it gives nice round numbers in terms of damage. ill repeat, kills do not give xp. watch when you take a vehicle to 90% hp, youll get 90% of the xp. taking that last 10% of hp and killing it will only give you the last 10% xp.

It would've made more sense for the side with 2 men sniper teams to NOT have the survivability abilites and ability to garrison shoot in a car...

Edit: The German sniper needs to have more armor since conscripts have Oorah whereas German infantry do not

...I'm not really against buffing the german sniper, but I just have to ask: What does oorah have to do with him? Conscripts lose the ability to fire on the move if they oorah, if you see a conscript squad oorah you can just start moving in the opposite direction or retreat or whatever you feel like, because you know they have to come to a halt before they will even fire.

And I'm graciously ignoring how almost nobody seems to be using oorah anymore except in some stupid mg flank attempts at 0 range and for rushing into houses. Not that I blame them, 10 munition for that crap is harsh.

Because you can easily flank using a conscript with Oorah, press "stop" and have them tear the sniper to shreds. Oorah is not supposed to be used as an ability that allows you to run head-on into enemy fire and auto-win engagements. If you are forcing a 360 manpower unit to retreat with a 240 manpower unit plus 10 munitions, you just won the engagement right there.

Snipers are worthless if they have to keep retreating and thereby not shooting, especially since most Russian infantry are so cheap per model (and merge) and that squads are so large.

well i have a bit different proposition.

i think that in general low tier units in a game should not be high-risk - high reward.

because most new \ average players will build them even without precise knowledge of their correct usage. so they probably will lose quickly in the early game and get frustrated therefor not enjoying the game therefor not recommending the game therefor harming the game success which is surely not in the interest of the game designer aka relic.

the conclusion is that t1 german sniper should surely cost less. it might be nerfed to keep the balance, but it surely have to be cheaper so a scenario of a player losing 360 mp in a blink is excluded.

if we want to have a powerful & vulnerable sniper in german arsenal it have to be in higher tier (maybe t4 "elite sniper" like the KHC in COH 1)

if unit is vulnerable the correct way to use it is to keep it far from harms way, so for a sniper i think increasing range would do the trick.

if unit is vulnerable the correct way to use it is to keep it far from harms way, so for a sniper i think increasing range would do the trick.

Keyword being vulnerable. The Soviet sniper is far from that.

At the moment the ranges seem fine - if they are too long it would make snipers too much of an attack-move-and-win unit.

All these arguments about HP and armor seem vain. The whole counter-sniping will not really be solved by changing hp or armor. The point is Russian sniper can retreat after being sniped, while german one cannot. This is the biggest problem.

If it takes two shots for the russian snipers to kill a german sniper it could help, but then the german one will prolly be op since russian ones shoot slower. This is such a stupid solution if you could have just changed it to one man snipers on both sides with similiar stats but different vet abilities.

Mortar damage to snipers will also be more balanced if russian sniper was 1 man (as a soft counter). The buff to 80hp for german sniper might make it a bit more durable to mortar fire, but still I feel making both sides one man snipers is just plainly the best solution by far.

Problem is, I'm pretty sure in one of the Relic streams PQ mentioned that they weren't going to change the sniper squad sizes.

I see how they tried the sniper balance: they tried to do it the same way as grenadiers vs. conscripts. Problem is, snipers always penetrate, so the German's higher armor is a moot point (this and random explosions).

Problem is, snipers always penetrate, so the German's higher armor is a moot point

OH sniper is more accurate than SU sniper, so there is a difference of some sort of RNG "armor penetration".

(this and random explosions).

That's the real problem. With all the nades going off left and right, carpet bombing and mortar spam, a single model dies faster than you can say "oh shit". Micro helps you little.

Interesting suggestions, keep in mind that we really do not want to bring back the sniper meta-game from vCOH.

That said, we do have some minor tweaks to snipers in the pipeline. Can't say they will be included in the next patch though.

This might be a stupid suggestion, but.

Is there anyway you can increase the rate of fire of a Osteer sniper when its closer to a target? This would potentially give it the ability to camouflage up toward a soviet sniper and then pop them both if one retreats after the first dies. As of current Osteer sniper takes a shot then has to back out whilst the Soviet reinforces.

Interesting suggestions, keep in mind that we really do not want to bring back the sniper meta-game from vCOH.

That said, we do have some minor tweaks to snipers in the pipeline. Can't say they will be included in the next patch though.

Thanx PQ, good to know

This might be a stupid suggestion, but.

Is there anyway you can increase the rate of fire of a Osteer sniper when its closer to a target? This would potentially give it the ability to camouflage up toward a soviet sniper and then pop them both if one retreats after the first dies. As of current Osteer sniper takes a shot then has to back out whilst the Soviet reinforces.

I think someone did a test on it, apparently the current Ostheer sniper and Soviet sniper have almost identical ROF at long range, while the Ostheer one has about 1.5x the ROF at closer range.

Has anyone thought about the implications of maybe putting a vet 2 or 3 ability on the German sniper that is like a quick or double shot? Maybe put a vet 2 mark target ability on that removes camo and increases damage received by a squad, then for vet 3 put in an ability that allows the sniper to fire twice in rapid succession maybe? Or a lot quicker for a period of time? Make it so that it's not that easy for a Russian sniper to just completely not fear a German one at all and also simultaneously equalling the soviet sniper effectiveness once he reaches late vet (quicker firing at the larger squad sizes of the soviets in the later game, thereby equalling the currently more effective Soviet snipers as the Germans have a smaller squad size).

Also gives a reason to bring out an early German sniper and be something that the soviets could actually worry about.

Maybe instead of a quick fire ability allow a focus squad ability that allows faster firing and better accuracy vs a single squad (like Sov snipers).

What do we think? Good/Bad?

The German sniper is not meant to be a counter to the Russian sniper so I wish people would stop comparing them that way. It's like talking about a Pak fighting a ZiS in a vacuum or something equally silly. It's pretty much fine as is. Soviet snipers are a committed build path. German sniper is something you can add in on the fly to your regular build order if you want to. Use the 222 scout car and mortars vs Soviet snipers. Good example of a game where German sniper is used as intended: http://www.gamereplays.org/companyofheroes2/replays.php?game=83&show=details&id=287250