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Pgrens seem like they have been flipped on their head

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mr.matrix300
8 Jun 2018, 15:49 PM
#42
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Jun 2018, 10:30 AMA_E
V2.0 Proposal

PGrens cost 280 manpower, are deployed with 2x kar90s 2x stgs as standard, and traditional stick grenades.

Have one of two upgrade choices: 80 muni or 40 muni at vet 1

AT upgrade

One panzerschreck, anti tank grenade (only stuns), teller mine ability.

or

AI upgrade

4x stgs, bundle nade, and booby traps.

I actually like this(except that Vet 1 is needed).
But what about if we would do the same for Penals too ?
Penals start with 3 SWT 40s and 3 Mosins and can upgrade to 3 PTRS/3SWT 40s(or 3 Mosins)or to 6 SWT 40s
jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2018, 04:21 AMRocket
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.






Playing with randoms





jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2018, 04:21 AMRocket
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.




jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 12:59 PMKatitof

I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you




jump backJump back to quoted post18 Aug 2020, 04:14 AMCODGUY
The idea that the Jackson needed ANY nerfing is so laughable. It only serves ONE task, how dare it be good at that. If it were a good against infantry like the Panther, King Tiger, Panzer IV, Jagtiger, Elefant, I could see how it might be a problem and need a nerf but it's not









jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2018, 04:21 AMRocket
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.







jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 12:59 PMKatitof

I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you







jump backJump back to quoted post18 Aug 2020, 04:11 AMCODGUY
I don't play this version of EZ mode very often because it's so boringly simple. But it is funny to see the Axis circle jerk with people complaining that the one faction with every crutch in the book is some how underpowered lol.







jump backJump back to quoted post18 Aug 2020, 04:14 AMCODGUY
The idea that the Jackson needed ANY nerfing is so laughable. It only serves ONE task, how dare it be good at that. If it were a good against infantry like the Panther, King Tiger, Panzer IV, Jagtiger, Elefant, I could see how it might be a problem and need a nerf but it's not







jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2018, 04:21 AMRocket
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.






jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2020, 19:21 PMIncendiaryRounds:)

u deserve to lose if u don't have an Ele when there's an ISU.
Just stay out of topics u have no knowledge of, Latch.




jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 10:02 AMProtos Angelus


Ranked, I only play USF. Wouldn't be caught dead playing Nazis with some sort of record being taken





jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 12:59 PMKatitof

I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you, and wouldn't be surprised to be hit again, but I'm fed up with this bullshit and honestly, the sole fact that I'm not permad is what keeps me here having discussions about the game I like and yes, I do question myself why I still go back here to this free range insane asylum so often.



jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 12:59 PMKatitof

I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you




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Katitof
8 Jun 2018, 15:54 PM
#43
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jun 2018, 15:49 PMmr.matrix300

I actually like this(except that Vet 1 is needed).
But what about if we would do the same for Penals too ?
Penals start with 3 SWT 40s and 3 Mosins and can upgrade to 3 PTRS/3SWT 40s(or 3 Mosins)or to 6 SWT 40s

And cost to 240 too?

Because that's how his proposal works.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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mr.matrix300
8 Jun 2018, 15:54 PM
#44
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Jun 2018, 10:47 AMKatitof


Guards:

-are doctrinal
-require additional 75 muni upgrade
-have completely different profile(aka not short ranged assault squad)
-belong to army that have poor stock long range damage


So you are telling me that Guard should beat Pzgrens because Guards are doctrinal ?
Well ... ever heard about Panzerfusiliers and Penals ?
Even when upgraded with G 43 Pzf. will lose to Penals (except close combat).


jump backJump back to quoted post7 Jun 2018, 10:47 AMKatitof

-come NOWHERE close to AT potential of shreck PGs.
And the biggest difference:
Soviet elite infantry is supposed to become their mainline infantry late game once you lose all your cons.
Ost elite infantry are force multipliers, NOT gren replacements.


You are acting like Penals don't exist at all.They are good against infantry too and in combination with the Stun of Guards they can even take down heavy tanks
jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2018, 04:21 AMRocket
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.






Playing with randoms





jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2018, 04:21 AMRocket
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.




jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 12:59 PMKatitof

I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you




jump backJump back to quoted post18 Aug 2020, 04:14 AMCODGUY
The idea that the Jackson needed ANY nerfing is so laughable. It only serves ONE task, how dare it be good at that. If it were a good against infantry like the Panther, King Tiger, Panzer IV, Jagtiger, Elefant, I could see how it might be a problem and need a nerf but it's not









jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2018, 04:21 AMRocket
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.







jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 12:59 PMKatitof

I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you







jump backJump back to quoted post18 Aug 2020, 04:11 AMCODGUY
I don't play this version of EZ mode very often because it's so boringly simple. But it is funny to see the Axis circle jerk with people complaining that the one faction with every crutch in the book is some how underpowered lol.







jump backJump back to quoted post18 Aug 2020, 04:14 AMCODGUY
The idea that the Jackson needed ANY nerfing is so laughable. It only serves ONE task, how dare it be good at that. If it were a good against infantry like the Panther, King Tiger, Panzer IV, Jagtiger, Elefant, I could see how it might be a problem and need a nerf but it's not







jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2018, 04:21 AMRocket
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.






jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2020, 19:21 PMIncendiaryRounds:)

u deserve to lose if u don't have an Ele when there's an ISU.
Just stay out of topics u have no knowledge of, Latch.




jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 10:02 AMProtos Angelus


Ranked, I only play USF. Wouldn't be caught dead playing Nazis with some sort of record being taken





jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 12:59 PMKatitof

I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you, and wouldn't be surprised to be hit again, but I'm fed up with this bullshit and honestly, the sole fact that I'm not permad is what keeps me here having discussions about the game I like and yes, I do question myself why I still go back here to this free range insane asylum so often.



jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 12:59 PMKatitof

I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you




Reply Reply Multi Quote Reply Reply
mr.matrix300
8 Jun 2018, 15:58 PM
#45
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jun 2018, 15:54 PMKatitof

And cost to 240 too?

Because that's how his proposal works.

Pzgrens would cost 70 MP per unit.Penals would cost 40 MP per unit but still would be more effective (if upgraded with SWT 40) than a Pzf. unit with G 43 upgrade which is doctrinal AND costs more.So reducing their price down to 240 is just nonsense (maybe 280/290 but not more than that).
jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2018, 04:21 AMRocket
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.






Playing with randoms





jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2018, 04:21 AMRocket
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.




jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 12:59 PMKatitof

I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you




jump backJump back to quoted post18 Aug 2020, 04:14 AMCODGUY
The idea that the Jackson needed ANY nerfing is so laughable. It only serves ONE task, how dare it be good at that. If it were a good against infantry like the Panther, King Tiger, Panzer IV, Jagtiger, Elefant, I could see how it might be a problem and need a nerf but it's not









jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2018, 04:21 AMRocket
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.







jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 12:59 PMKatitof

I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you







jump backJump back to quoted post18 Aug 2020, 04:11 AMCODGUY
I don't play this version of EZ mode very often because it's so boringly simple. But it is funny to see the Axis circle jerk with people complaining that the one faction with every crutch in the book is some how underpowered lol.







jump backJump back to quoted post18 Aug 2020, 04:14 AMCODGUY
The idea that the Jackson needed ANY nerfing is so laughable. It only serves ONE task, how dare it be good at that. If it were a good against infantry like the Panther, King Tiger, Panzer IV, Jagtiger, Elefant, I could see how it might be a problem and need a nerf but it's not







jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2018, 04:21 AMRocket
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.






jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2020, 19:21 PMIncendiaryRounds:)

u deserve to lose if u don't have an Ele when there's an ISU.
Just stay out of topics u have no knowledge of, Latch.




jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 10:02 AMProtos Angelus


Ranked, I only play USF. Wouldn't be caught dead playing Nazis with some sort of record being taken





jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 12:59 PMKatitof

I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you, and wouldn't be surprised to be hit again, but I'm fed up with this bullshit and honestly, the sole fact that I'm not permad is what keeps me here having discussions about the game I like and yes, I do question myself why I still go back here to this free range insane asylum so often.



jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 12:59 PMKatitof

I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you




Reply Reply Multi Quote Reply Reply
ferwiner
8 Jun 2018, 16:45 PM
#46
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jun 2018, 05:43 AMStark


Does 1 shrek less made such a big diffrence? They aren't so cheap as volks-shrek blob used to

We all mostly agreed that Pgrens are fine, ok unit but then why is that this unit is so rarely used?


I don't know if it still does make such a difference, when you compare it to crazy design of wfa. But it definitely did back then. It used to be easy to swing the meta around with small tweaks.
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zarok47
8 Jun 2018, 16:52 PM
#47
avatar of zarok47

Posts: 587

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jun 2018, 05:43 AMStark


Does 1 shrek less made such a big diffrence? They aren't so cheap as volks-shrek blob used to

We all mostly agreed that Pgrens are fine, ok unit but then why is that this unit is so rarely used?


Because everything else is better.
jump backJump back to quoted post20 May 2018, 15:21 PMFelixTHM

Being bad at the game isn't something balance patches can fix.
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Firesparks
8 Jun 2018, 18:46 PM
#48
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

this game heavily favor long range firepower by the mid-late game, and the stgg4's dps profile doesn't really work.

Both Ober and pzgrenadier suffer similar problem in that their line infantry are just so much more cost efficient and versatile.


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2BadWaluigiTime
9 Jun 2018, 01:16 AM
#49
avatar of 2BadWaluigiTime

Posts: 22

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jun 2018, 18:46 PMFiresparks
this game heavily favor long range firepower by the mid-late game, and the stgg4's dps profile doesn't really work.

Both Ober and pzgrenadier suffer similar problem in that their line infantry are just so much more cost efficient and versatile.


This is the ultimate problem, low tier infantry are too effective. But I will try what has been suggested and use Pgrens as mid range fighters
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Sander93
9 Jun 2018, 08:57 AM
#50
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jun 2018, 18:46 PMFiresparks
this game heavily favor long range firepower by the mid-late game, and the stgg4's dps profile doesn't really work.


Here's an idea: how about an option to switch 'fire modes' for the STG44s?

Single shot mode would make them effective at long range (higher long range, I dunno 110% of Grens dps) while switching to full auto mode makes them effective at short-mid range (same as now). I have no idea if that would be possible but it would certainly make them a unique unit and much more versatile. Maybe make the 'single shot mode' a munitions ability.
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Kasarov
9 Jun 2018, 09:52 AM
#51
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 422 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Jun 2018, 08:57 AMSander93


Here's an idea: how about an option to switch 'fire modes' for the STG44s?

Single shot mode would make them effective at long range (higher long range, I dunno 110% of Grens dps) while switching to full auto mode makes them effective at short-mid range (same as now). I have no idea if that would be possible but it would certainly make them a unique unit and much more versatile. Maybe make the 'single shot mode' a munitions ability.


This is probably the most likely solution to be added. I doubt any units will receive major overhauls anymore at this stage, unless its the British. They really need it.
jump backJump back to quoted post12 May 2017, 05:02 AMKasarov

Japan:
-no unit preservation ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
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Kasarov
9 Jun 2018, 09:59 AM
#52
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 422 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Jun 2018, 10:30 AMA_E
V2.0 Proposal

PGrens cost 280 manpower, are deployed with 2x kar90s 2x stgs as standard, and traditional stick grenades.

Have one of two upgrade choices: 80 muni or 40 muni at vet 1

AT upgrade

One panzerschreck, anti tank grenade (only stuns), teller mine ability.

or

AI upgrade

4x stgs, bundle nade, and booby traps.


My personal design would be:
340MP: 3xK98, 1xLMG42. The Panzergrenadier LMG42 is weaker than Gren LMG42 but fires on the move. Think BAR profile. Reverted to normal Gren LMG42 if picked up by other units.

Can upgrade into:
60MU: StG44 Package, 4xStG44 and gives the tactical advance ability.
75MU: Swaps the LMG42 with a single Panzershreck and can lay teller mines. The Panzergrenadier version of the Panzershreck has a higher RoF than the normal Panzershreck but are reverted to normal Panzershrecks when picked up by other units.

Finally, a buff/nerf system based on their proximity to nearby armor. If they are not supported by armored cars, halftracks, or actual tanks, they are easier to hit and are less durable than Grens. If they are supported, the armor units confer both a movement speed buff and received accuracy buff.

jump backJump back to quoted post12 May 2017, 05:02 AMKasarov

Japan:
-no unit preservation ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
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mortiferum
9 Jun 2018, 10:06 AM
#53
avatar of mortiferum

Posts: 571

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Jun 2018, 09:59 AMKasarov

snip

Finally, a buff/nerf system based on their proximity to nearby armor. If they are not supported by armored cars, halftracks, or actual tanks, they are easier to hit and are less durable than Grens. If they are supported, the armor units confer both a movement speed buff and received accuracy buff.


That is actually a pretty cool idea, kinda like Brits and cover/ US with their combined arms ability.
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Kasarov
9 Jun 2018, 10:21 AM
#54
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 422 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Jun 2018, 10:06 AMmortiferum


That is actually a pretty cool idea, kinda like Brits and cover/ US with their combined arms ability.


There was a vet 1 ability given to Panzergrenadiers that was like a targeted pair-up version of combined arms that Mr. Smith and Miragefla added for their personal balance mods. Honestly, that was one of my favorite changes. Bring IS-2 HE shell back So while the mod team thought about adding something similar before, it's far more likely to hope for that version to be adopted rather than mine as its less of an extensive overhaul.
jump backJump back to quoted post12 May 2017, 05:02 AMKasarov

Japan:
-no unit preservation ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
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mortiferum
9 Jun 2018, 10:29 AM
#55
avatar of mortiferum

Posts: 571

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Jun 2018, 10:21 AMKasarov


There was a vet 1 ability given to Panzergrenadiers that was like a targeted pair-up version of combined arms that Mr. Smith and Miragefla added for their personal balance mods. Honestly, that was one of my favorite changes. Bring IS-2 HE shell back So while the mod team thought about adding something similar before, it's far more likely to hope for that version to be adopted rather than mine as its less of an extensive overhaul.


I mean, if it must be implemented with the lease effort possible, would it be possible to give all ostheer vehs an aura that only affects Pgrens, or is game unable to do that?

I am no modder, so I am pulling shit out of my ass.
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Kasarov
9 Jun 2018, 10:51 AM
#56
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 422 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Jun 2018, 10:29 AMmortiferum


I mean, if it must be implemented with the lease effort possible, would it be possible to give all ostheer vehs an aura that only affects Pgrens, or is game unable to do that?

I am no modder, so I am pulling shit out of my ass.


That's exactly how I did it. However, it's less of an issue of how easy it is to do it, it's more of Relic's papa scope. Many a great idea was cut because it was "out of scope"
jump backJump back to quoted post12 May 2017, 05:02 AMKasarov

Japan:
-no unit preservation ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
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GI John 412
9 Jun 2018, 14:55 PM
#57
avatar of GI John 412

Posts: 495 | Subs: 1

Too many of these proposals are extremely extensive or involve multiple upgrades/sidegrades.

Keep it simple. Reduce purchase cost to 300mp but leave the reinforcement cost the same. This makes getting a squad more attainable, but getting too many becomes a manpower sink.

Make the Panzershreck upgrade cost 50 or 60 munitions, but is a single weapon upgrade that can be purchased twice, much like the vCoH version of grenadiers. This way they you can invest in shrecks easier or split them up between two squads. Or, if you prefer to keep them on one squad, you just buy the upgrade twice and end up with the current double upgrade at the current price.

Endstate: same performance, less entry cost, same long term manpower bleed if you over invest, less risk of dropping a weapon, easier access to the weapon if you can only afford one at a time.
“Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem.” ― Ronald Reagan

Semper Fi
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Firesparks
10 Jun 2018, 06:58 AM
#58
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Jun 2018, 08:57 AMSander93


Here's an idea: how about an option to switch 'fire modes' for the STG44s?

Single shot mode would make them effective at long range (higher long range, I dunno 110% of Grens dps) while switching to full auto mode makes them effective at short-mid range (same as now). I have no idea if that would be possible but it would certainly make them a unique unit and much more versatile. Maybe make the 'single shot mode' a munitions ability.


that's just unnecessary complication. Just make them decent at long range.


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Sander93
10 Jun 2018, 07:33 AM
#59
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Jun 2018, 06:58 AMFiresparks


that's just unnecessary complication. Just make them decent at long range.


I don't think it is unnecessary. Giving them good long range DPS as standard will just make them too convenient to use (good at all ranges - which is what everyone complains about regarding Volks STG44 package) and they would just replace Grens.

Something like a 30 seconds single shot munitions ability (temporary higher long range dps, low short range dps) would at least require investment in micro and munitions and would actually be counterable somewhat by rushing them before the ability runs out.
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Firesparks
12 Jun 2018, 04:15 AM
#60
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Jun 2018, 07:33 AMSander93


I don't think it is unnecessary. Giving them good long range DPS as standard will just make them too convenient to use (good at all ranges - which is what everyone complains about regarding Volks STG44 package) and they would just replace Grens.

Something like a 30 seconds single shot munitions ability (temporary higher long range dps, low short range dps) would at least require investment in micro and munitions and would actually be counterable somewhat by rushing them before the ability runs out.


don't compare pzgrenadier against baseline infantry, compare them against upgraded infantry.

The pzgrenadier factually arrive after the lmg42 and in all likely hood the weapon rack for the USF and UKF.

I think the pzgrenadier will need either a substantial buff and/or a population decrease to 7. They are not really a match against the allies elite (ranger, commandos), and doesn't really have the versatility of the line infantry.

Here's what I have in mind:

buff far dps to 3.0. A upgraded tommies and rifleman will still have better long range dps.

t3 upgrade grant +4 HP. There's a limit on how much the target size can help on a 4 men squad.

decrease pop cost to 7. same as rifleman.


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