So, uhh, are we all just going pretend that cutting down the Jackson to 55 range is not going to kill USF lategame?
I mean... it's not like the Panther, Tiger Ace, Tiger vet2 and Stug have 50 range...
and then there is the JP4 with 60 range.
With the Buff, it's a 55 range, 640hp, 140 fuel, 16pop, 160 dmg, no-ai vehicle. Sounds a bit mehh for the lategame.
Why play USF if you get owned by Tiger Ace anyways?
Jackson nerf
22 Apr 2018, 11:35 AM
#1
Posts: 747 | Subs: 2
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22 Apr 2018, 12:06 PM
#2
1 
Posts: 2885
I'm pretty sure mobility nerf would be enough for jackson.
On the other hand, this is one of the few proposed changes that are actually worth testing. If jackson would work with such range, that will add new interesting dynamic to the game. It needs to keep its mobility or even get it improved for it to work though.
On the other hand, this is one of the few proposed changes that are actually worth testing. If jackson would work with such range, that will add new interesting dynamic to the game. It needs to keep its mobility or even get it improved for it to work though.
22 Apr 2018, 12:50 PM
#3
Posts: 3032 | Subs: 3
Jackson in its current state is a bit ridiculous, the buff to 640hp was necessary but the lethality nerfs it gets this patch are reasonable tbh, maybe they should just decrease the price of the jackson a bit as well to something like 380/130.
IMO they should just give the USF AT gun a decent penetration buff while making it slightly more expensive. The main issue of USF's AT situation is that zooks and AT guns already struggle vs the frontal armor of a p4, and it's no fun at all to rely on a single expensive unit as your whole AT vs any tank that is bigger than a luchs.
IMO they should just give the USF AT gun a decent penetration buff while making it slightly more expensive. The main issue of USF's AT situation is that zooks and AT guns already struggle vs the frontal armor of a p4, and it's no fun at all to rely on a single expensive unit as your whole AT vs any tank that is bigger than a luchs.
22 Apr 2018, 14:08 PM
#4
Posts: 808
so, uhh are u just guna pretend the the current Jackson in the live game in balanced?
Zooks and USF AT guns have no trouble dealing with p4's frontally. IF USF AT gun does receive a penetration buff, you do realise its sight range (ARC) and rate of fire would have to go down right?
The higher sight range (ARC), rate of fire, lower cost, HVAP is suppose to make up for the lower pen. The only tank the causes pen problems is the KT, but the Jackson can deal with that. You don't need the Jackson to rely on your whole AT, sound like ur making that choice for ur self
Jackson in its current state is a bit ridiculous, the buff to 640hp was necessary but the lethality nerfs it gets this patch are reasonable tbh, maybe they should just decrease the price of the jackson a bit as well to something like 380/130.
IMO they should just give the USF AT gun a decent penetration buff while making it slightly more expensive. The main issue of USF's AT situation is that zooks and AT guns already struggle vs the frontal armor of a p4, and it's no fun at all to rely on a single expensive unit as your whole AT vs any tank that is bigger than a luchs.
Zooks and USF AT guns have no trouble dealing with p4's frontally. IF USF AT gun does receive a penetration buff, you do realise its sight range (ARC) and rate of fire would have to go down right?
The higher sight range (ARC), rate of fire, lower cost, HVAP is suppose to make up for the lower pen. The only tank the causes pen problems is the KT, but the Jackson can deal with that. You don't need the Jackson to rely on your whole AT, sound like ur making that choice for ur self
22 Apr 2018, 14:23 PM
#5
Posts: 3032 | Subs: 3
Zooks and USF AT guns have no trouble dealing with p4's frontally.
The only tank the causes pen problems is the KT
I'm sorry but I won't discuss such ridiculous claims with people who never uploaded a replay nor have their playercard linked
Gives me this suspicion you are one of these 4 digit rank one-side-only players
22 Apr 2018, 14:33 PM
#6
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
M1 chance to penetrate Ostheer PzIV range 60/30/0 frontally.
72%/78%/83%
72%/78%/83%
22 Apr 2018, 14:42 PM
#7
Posts: 2635 | Subs: 4
Permanently BannedSame guys up jackson, same guys nerf him.
Who cares about allies late game is target of patch are destroy allies.
Who cares about allies late game is target of patch are destroy allies.
Relic killing our game, lets save COH2 from Relic 
If you're not a ахіs lover when you're 20, you have no heart. If you're not a soviet fanboy by the time you're 30, you have no brain.
Relic delenda est
If Dane will be have son, he will be call him (Sturmgeschütz)
Brotheres, what we do in coh2, ehoes in eternity
If you're not a ахіs lover when you're 20, you have no heart. If you're not a soviet fanboy by the time you're 30, you have no brain.
Relic delenda est
If Dane will be have son, he will be call him (Sturmgeschütz)
Brotheres, what we do in coh2, ehoes in eternity
22 Apr 2018, 15:06 PM
#8
Posts: 3260
The Jackson's problem is it's got to be everything USF needs from a tank destroyer. The other factions have two or more specialist AT vehicles filling different roles.
The result is a tank which has no vehicular counter. If it did whichever tank countered it would counter USF's entire armour lineup.
In my opinion what USF needs is a cheaper non-doctrinal vehicular AT option that fills a similar role to the SU-76, AEC, Puma or StuG. That'd let the Jackson fall back into a more specialist Firefly/SU-85 role.
The result is a tank which has no vehicular counter. If it did whichever tank countered it would counter USF's entire armour lineup.
In my opinion what USF needs is a cheaper non-doctrinal vehicular AT option that fills a similar role to the SU-76, AEC, Puma or StuG. That'd let the Jackson fall back into a more specialist Firefly/SU-85 role.
22 Apr 2018, 15:12 PM
#9
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
The Jackson's problem is it's got to be everything USF needs from a tank destroyer. The other factions have two or more specialist AT vehicles filling different roles.
The result is a tank which has no vehicular counter. If it did whichever tank countered it would counter USF's entire armour lineup.
In my opinion what USF needs is a cheaper non-doctrinal vehicular AT option that fills a similar role to the SU-76, AEC, Puma or StuG. That'd let the Jackson fall back into a more specialist Firefly/SU-85 role.
There is nothing specialized about FF/SU-85 as tds, their high a accuracy make them very good vs all vehicles
22 Apr 2018, 15:18 PM
#10
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
There is nothing specialized about FF/SU-85 as tds, their high a accuracy make them very good vs all vehicles
There still are 2 lighter, cheaper options that are capable of engaging med armor, especially in soviet case.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
22 Apr 2018, 15:19 PM
#11
Posts: 138
I actually made an account to discuss this, with the patch british and american armour will be in a pretty pathetic position.
The reason we see centuar and Jackson every game because the allies have nothing else. Comet, Cromewell, m10 were all nerfed without any real price decrease. so they suck, the USF for the longest time just had to rely on OP Cali or pershing every game because of useless old jackson. Meanwhile PIV and panther have seen small power creep with AI buffs and cost decreases.
Brits are fucked unless you feed them a stream of muni for tulips, because the FF just gets overrun the minute the enemy has two stugs and dies.
Only lategame chance USF will have next patch is cheesing OP Pershing and E8 commander every game. So the balance team has basically limited strategies even more.
God damn relic
The reason we see centuar and Jackson every game because the allies have nothing else. Comet, Cromewell, m10 were all nerfed without any real price decrease. so they suck, the USF for the longest time just had to rely on OP Cali or pershing every game because of useless old jackson. Meanwhile PIV and panther have seen small power creep with AI buffs and cost decreases.
Brits are fucked unless you feed them a stream of muni for tulips, because the FF just gets overrun the minute the enemy has two stugs and dies.
Only lategame chance USF will have next patch is cheesing OP Pershing and E8 commander every game. So the balance team has basically limited strategies even more.
God damn relic
22 Apr 2018, 15:32 PM
#12
Posts: 1220
If u ask me jackson should be more like firefly and wolverine like su76 but wolverine is doctrinal so jackson is the only real at option so curent state is ok dont touch it
22 Apr 2018, 15:47 PM
#13
1 Posts: 2885
If u ask me jackson should be more like firefly and wolverine like su76 but wolverine is doctrinal so jackson is the only real at option so curent state is ok dont touch it
That is a good place to start if we were to redesign usf late game instead of trying to make jackson a solution to everyting. So what is needed is to swap m10 and jackson. Then ballance them in their new doctrinal roles. Jackson as heavy tank destroyer - kind of a small version of ISU/Ele/JT. M10 as generalist TD priced similar to sherman, that loses its OP crush but gets better in TD role than su76 and possibly 60 range.
22 Apr 2018, 15:57 PM
#14
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
There still are 2 lighter, cheaper options that are capable of engaging med armor, especially in soviet case.
And that does not make the FF/SU-85 specialized. In order for this units to be specialized vs super heavies they would need high penetration low accuracy (they already have high penetration).
22 Apr 2018, 16:01 PM
#15
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
And that does not make the FF/SU-85 specialized. In order for this units to be specialized vs super heavies they would need high penetration low accuracy (they already have high penetration).
No, existence of these alternatives does not make FF and SU specialized.
Their much higher penetration and lower rate of fire, designed to combat slower or highly armored vehicles is.
Accuracy does not play as big of a role, because target size affects all incoming shots, that includes ATGs, which need to combat both, med and heavy armor without 100% accuracy on both and same goes for handheld AT.
And making units which are end of tier and capable of fighting reliably exclusively 3 axis units(taking into account your accuracy thing, which would make them unreliable against meds), which can engage a wide range of targets is utterly retarded idea to even think of.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
22 Apr 2018, 16:19 PM
#16
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
The Jackson's problem is it's got to be everything USF needs from a tank destroyer. The other factions have two or more specialist AT vehicles filling different roles.
The result is a tank which has no vehicular counter. If it did whichever tank countered it would counter USF's entire armour lineup.
This is everything IMO. Not to mention the fact that US is the only one who might not even have AT guns available in the late game, should you choose Lieutenant.
Sovs sorta have to make that choice, but its very feasible to get both of their early tiers since they only total in 30 fuel together.
22 Apr 2018, 16:34 PM
#17
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
No, existence of these alternatives does not make FF and SU specialized.
Their much higher penetration and lower rate of fire, designed to combat slower or highly armored vehicles is.
Accuracy does not play as big of a role, because target size affects all incoming shots, that includes ATGs, which need to combat both, med and heavy armor without 100% accuracy on both and same goes for handheld AT.
And making units which are end of tier and capable of fighting reliably exclusively 3 axis units(taking into account your accuracy thing, which would make them unreliable against meds), which can engage a wide range of targets is utterly retarded idea to even think of.
Su-85 does not have slow fire rate.
A firefly can make medium tank disappear in 8 secs if both Tulips land and that is probably one of the fastest kills.
Accuracy plays a very big role.
FF/SU-85/M36 can reliably hit and penetrate PzIVs from max range. These Tds perform very good vs mediums.
In this patch a Su-85 vet 2 will have 100% change to hit and penetrate a vet 3 Panther from range 60.
The performance of allied TDs need to looked if the only tank with enough armor to take Tds shots is the KT.
22 Apr 2018, 16:48 PM
#18
Posts: 3260
If u ask me jackson should be more like firefly and wolverine like su76 but wolverine is doctrinal so jackson is the only real at option so curent state is ok dont touch it
The Wolverine doesn't have to be doctrinal. Relic's moved units into and out of doctrines before. Make the Scott or Pack Howitzer doctrinal if you need to make space. It might be a little visually confusing though given how similar they look.
Failing that you could rework the Stuart to be more like the AEC. It's in a bit of an odd place at the moment.
22 Apr 2018, 16:56 PM
#19
Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4
OP sounds almost like a panther being "meh" 
22 Apr 2018, 17:13 PM
#20
Posts: 747 | Subs: 2
OP sounds almost like a panther being "meh"
Why build a Panther when you can have JP4 or 2 Stugs. But what do you build as USF instead Jackson for AT?
Panther is like a Comet - it's better underpowered than overpowered, because they are not an absolute necessity for late game.
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