Tank destroyers should be less accurate

(TD meaning the su-85, jp4, jackson, and the Firefly. I am not including the atg)

weapon accuracy against a target is calculated as the listed accuracy multiple by the target's size.

For example, the 75mm kwk 40 have a accuracy of .025-.05, while the t34/76 have an size of 22. Therefore the kwk 40 have an accuracy of .55 against the t34/76.

(in practice it is actually higher due to stray shot, but .55 is a decent baseline).

Heavy tanks (and more powerful units in general) have a higher size. The tiger for example have a size of 26 compared to the pz4's 22.

This is actually historical and realistic as thicker and heavier armor require more complex suspension, and more powerful gun are generally bigger. This in turn also demanded more powerful engine, which are generally bigger as well. The tiger was 3 meters high compared to the p4's height of 2.68m.

This means that heavy tanks like the tiger are easier to hit, but in theory make up for that fact by having higher HP and armor.

The issue with Tank destroyer right now is the fact their accuracy is too high.

assuming the target have a size of 22 (panzer4).

the jp4/FF 0.04 - 0.06 = 0.88 - 1.32
the Su-85 .04 - .055 = .88 - 1.21
the m36 .035-.05 = .77 - 1.1

this completely nullify the advantages of having a smaller target size. Even with the 50% accuracy penalty, a moving td still achieve an accuracy of 44% against medium tank.

TD doesn't need their current insane accuracy to counter heavy tank, as heavy tank are easier target to hit.

Assuming a target of 26 (tiger and king tiger).
panzer4 .025-.05 = .65 - 1.3
panther .03-.06 = .78 - 1.56

this means the extreme accuracy on the TD are complete overkill. Their accuracy could go down to .025-.05 and still be good against heavy. the Su-76 currently have an accuracy of .025-.05

(atg are different since they are support weapon. I've left out the stug since it's only got 50m range)

su85 i can get behind the jackson too, the others... not sure
the firefly is so damn slow it needs to be hitting what its shooting at since it cant chase.
the JP4 being case mate and the only long range TD of the axis faction imo should also be right sure to be hitting

the su85 has massive ludacris amounts of pen AND the ability to be supplemented with su76 asa medium killer so if it misses a medium sometimes thats not so much an issue
the jackosn has all the tools anyone could want in a TD- highest mobility, fast turret, high pen, decrew self heal (and desnare), moving accuracy, HVAP rounds the health to brawl if it comes down to it. its only weakness is that its expensive and ask the 280 fuel slow as balls, full tech "too accurate" King tiger how much high cost counts for...

I have been pointing out that for more than 2 years.

The chance to damage (hit and penetrate) vs medium tanks is simply to high.

That is why I have suggested further increasing target size for super heavies and lowering accuracy of AP rounds. That way super heavies and mediums can be balanced separately.

I have been pointing out that for more than 2 years.

The chance to damage (hit and penetrate) vs medium tanks is simply to high.

That is why I have suggested further increasing target size for super heavies and lowering accuracy of AP rounds. That way super heavies and mediums can be balanced separately.

i instantly thought about you when reading this

I've been saying this for a while. To differentiate between Heavy AT weapons and Medium AT weapons, AT guns should be quite accurate vs mediums but TDs with 200+ pen should miss half its shots vs a medium between 40-60 range. I agree with Vipper that the Firefly may be exempt from this due to low RoF. This change will make TD spam less cancerous.

Agreed, though the JP4 should have high accuracy as its supposed to be killing medium tanks and the FF should mostly be exempt outside of its weird mid-range value.

Agreed, though the JP4 should have high accuracy as its supposed to be killing medium tanks and the FF should mostly be exempt outside of its weird mid-range value.

yes the jp4 has way less pen than the others (same as the stug), and it's not a heavy TD like the others

Tank destroyers should be less accurate

no

no

i concure

What they want is tds to be worse vs mediums, but still strong vs heavy armor. You could lower the rof and buff pen to get the same result.

During a time where allied TDs are at their strongest, and in a thread asking to nerf TDs effectiveness strictly on accuracy I say no. The reason why I think this is because although the TDs may be accurate, they have blatant weakness. Some less than others cough* JACKSON cough* but they're all exploitble. Turretless with flanks and slower RoF on turreted vehicles.

If you're going to pay ~145F for a tank that is designated only to be shooting at armor with a slow RoF, every shot that misses is another 7-9 sec reload time. A lot can happen in seconds in this game and I don't think those things need to be pointed out. Personally I'd like to see an accuracy buff on most except the FF, of course in exchange for something else. It just feels like absolute crap when you pay so much for a piece of armor that can only engage armor, and then shoots dirt.

su85 i can get behind the jackson too, the others... not sure
the firefly is so damn slow it needs to be hitting what its shooting at since it cant chase.
the JP4 being case mate and the only long range TD of the axis faction imo should also be right sure to be hitting

the su85 has massive ludacris amounts of pen AND the ability to be supplemented with su76 asa medium killer so if it misses a medium sometimes thats not so much an issue
the jackosn has all the tools anyone could want in a TD- highest mobility, fast turret, high pen, decrew self heal (and desnare), moving accuracy, HVAP rounds the health to brawl if it comes down to it. its only weakness is that its expensive and ask the 280 fuel slow as balls, full tech "too accurate" King tiger how much high cost counts for...

Agreed, though the JP4 should have high accuracy as its supposed to be killing medium tanks and the FF should mostly be exempt outside of its weird mid-range value.

both the su-85 and the jp4 are casemate tank and handle similarly.

and "only long range TD" of the axis faction is misleading if we consider the fact both the USF and UKF are restricted to one 60m td as well. The soviet is "unique" having two 60m range in their tech.

(there's also the elefant and jagdtiger, but they are doctrinal).

the jp4 also benefit from having probably the smallest size(17) with 640 hp.

as it stand currently, the td have roughly 68% accuracy against the jp4 at max range.
If the TD were all to get an accuracy nerf: (accuracy against 22 size in parenthesis)
.025 x 17 = .425 (.55)
.03 x 17 = .51 (.66)

misses against the jp4 become that much more likely.

yes the jp4 has way less pen than the others (same as the stug), and it's not a heavy TD like the others

The jp4's penetration is still 100% against any unit on the soviet and USF tech tree, and most unit on the british tech tree. If the penetration bother you that much the jp4 did used a kwk42 historically, which mean it should have similar pen as the FF and jackson.

Is the higher penetration and lower accuracy going to be a nerf for the jp4 against medium? yes, that's entirely the point.

For the sake of simplicity, the Su-85 should be returned to its previous state before it received the entirely unnecessary buff.

If you're going to pay ~145F for a tank that is designated only to be shooting at armor with a slow RoF, every shot that misses is another 7-9 sec reload time. A lot can happen in seconds in this game and I don't think those things need to be pointed out. Personally I'd like to see an accuracy buff on most except the FF, of course in exchange for something else. It just feels like absolute crap when you pay so much for a piece of armor that can only engage armor, and then shoots dirt.

The FF is the one TD whose accuracy is justified, but I still consider it to be too expensive at 440mp 145 fuel 14 pop. The tulips are good but you're paying an individual mun upgrade to use a mun ability.

as it currently stand it's more worth ~ 380 mp 130 fuel 12 pop.

if it got an accuracy nerf to .03-.06 it's probably more worth 350 mp 125 fuel.

What they want is tds to be worse vs mediums, but still strong vs heavy armor. You could lower the rof and buff pen to get the same result.

which is what the FF is. Even if it work I wouldn't want all the TD to be like the FF.

i vote to add I win button for Axis if survive for 20 minutes to simplify the topic.

Most of the game's tank destroyers are fine. The vast majority are casemates which makes them vulnerable to being dived.

Of the three non-casemate tank destroyers two are also vulnerable at short range. The Puma's a light vehicle which makes it brittle in a medium armour battle. The Firefly has slow turret rotation and reduced health so it shares the vulnerability to diving mediums with the casemates.

The only real problem TD is the Jackson because the last patch made it effective at all ranges.

@firesparks
the reason i dont think the JP4 shuld be included in the reduction is mostly because while i think its a good unit, its somewhat under used, even with its small target size and high armour its underwhelming against allied TDs (which should be ITS role imo)

the reason i included the su85 despite them both being casemate is three-fold
firstly, its raw stats. holy hell does that thing eat armour, and so it should, its an end game TD with no turret, but it completly invalidates any armour in the area because of the combination of pen and accuracy when it should be targeted against heavy armour
second, its vet. pre buff i advocated for either more pen or better vet, in typical relic fashion it got both, and the boy did it get buffs. 30% more accuracy AND pen on already potent numbers is an over buff...
third, the existance of the su76 means the su85 doesnt need to be geared towards every vehcle the enemy can field. if the enemy is building mediums or lights the su76 should be the go to, the 85 should be for fighting things like panthers and tigers

ideally imo the su85 should be more like the FF, but with slightly less accuracy. 200 damage per shot, same overall DPS (so rof adjusted) maybe change out its vet 1 to something like usf "take aim" with a mobility debuff, nerf vet 2 to 15%, swap with vet 3 (mobility, then pen and accuracy)

but i disagree that the su85 was fine before, it was a crapshoot vs heavy armour and blatantly OP mediums with a stupid high RoF (if RNG said so it could kill a medium in 8 seconds and not much longer for a heavy... or it could miss, or not pen frequently as well. not something thats good for a final stage TD, it also made the squishier su76 redundant because the su85 was better in every possible way but price.

if the su85 goes back to its old state i would insist upon deflection damage so its doing SOMETHING at least when it hits

idk. i welcome a chance to change my mind, but thats pretty well what i think atm

@firesparks
the reason i dont think the JP4 shuld be included in the reduction is mostly because while i think its a good unit, its somewhat under used, even with its small target size and high armour its underwhelming against allied TDs (which should be ITS role imo)

the reason i included the su85 despite them both being casemate is three-fold
firstly, its raw stats. holy hell does that thing eat armour, and so it should, its an end game TD with no turret, but it completly invalidates any armour in the area because of the combination of pen and accuracy when it should be targeted against heavy armour
second, its vet. pre buff i advocated for either more pen or better vet, in typical relic fashion it got both, and the boy did it get buffs. 30% more accuracy AND pen on already potent numbers is an over buff...
third, the existance of the su76 means the su85 doesnt need to be geared towards every vehcle the enemy can field. if the enemy is building mediums or lights the su76 should be the go to, the 85 should be for fighting things like panthers and tigers

ideally imo the su85 should be more like the FF, but with slightly less accuracy. 200 damage per shot, same overall DPS (so rof adjusted) maybe change out its vet 1 to something like usf "take aim" with a mobility debuff, nerf vet 2 to 15%, swap with vet 3 (mobility, then pen and accuracy)

but i disagree that the su85 was fine before, it was a crapshoot vs heavy armour and blatantly OP mediums with a stupid high RoF (if RNG said so it could kill a medium in 8 seconds and not much longer for a heavy... or it could miss, or not pen frequently as well. not something thats good for a final stage TD, it also made the squishier su76 redundant because the su85 was better in every possible way but price.

if the su85 goes back to its old state i would insist upon deflection damage so its doing SOMETHING at least when it hits

idk. i welcome a chance to change my mind, but thats pretty well what i think atm

The most reliable counter against a 60m TD is another 60m TD. the jp4 with its small size will dominate the field if its accuracy was the only one untouched. (FF get a pass since it reload the slowest).

The current su-85 is really what the jp4 should have been like (minus the accuracy). 220/240 is pretty much the usual kwk 42 pen for coh2.


the old su-85 have somewhat "mediocre" pen but high rof. Yes, the su-85 pen is a bit of a crap shoot against the axis heavy, but it gets a high rof to make up for it.

The su-85 will grind down the axis heavies and had the best survivability between the allies TD (before the jackson buff anyway). This mean the su-85 is at its best if it can get the axis into a protracted engagement where the rof can work its magic. the su-85 also get self sight by default. the cone vision goes out to 70m, meaning the su-85 can self spot.

and I believe the low accuracy and high rof work better against medium (read: panzer4). the su-85 is more likely to miss its first shot and allow the tank the chance to escape.


similar case with the heavy really. the su-85 is more likely to bounce the first shot and allow the heavy to escape, but the heavy will retreat slower than a medium.

I do think the su-85 would work better if the t34/76 was better. It's a decent td but paired with what's basically the weakest medium in the game. The su-85 backing up something like the t34/85 or is2 works a lot better.

During a time where allied TDs are at their strongest, and in a thread asking to nerf TDs effectiveness strictly on accuracy I say no. The reason why I think this is because although the TDs may be accurate, they have blatant weakness. Some less than others cough* JACKSON cough* but they're all exploitble. Turretless with flanks and slower RoF on turreted vehicles.

If you're going to pay ~145F for a tank that is designated only to be shooting at armor with a slow RoF, every shot that misses is another 7-9 sec reload time. A lot can happen in seconds in this game and I don't think those things need to be pointed out. Personally I'd like to see an accuracy buff on most except the FF, of course in exchange for something else. It just feels like absolute crap when you pay so much for a piece of armor that can only engage armor, and then shoots dirt.

that's why they buffed the jagdtiger and elefant .... oh wait

(TD meaning the su-85, jp4, jackson, and the Firefly. I am not including the atg)

weapon accuracy against a target is calculated as the listed accuracy multiple by the target's size.

For example, the 75mm kwk 40 have a accuracy of .025-.05, while the t34/76 have an size of 22. Therefore the kwk 40 have an accuracy of .55 against the t34/76.

(in practice it is actually higher due to stray shot, but .55 is a decent baseline).

Heavy tanks (and more powerful units in general) have a higher size. The tiger for example have a size of 26 compared to the pz4's 22.

This is actually historical and realistic as thicker and heavier armor require more complex suspension, and more powerful gun are generally bigger. This in turn also demanded more powerful engine, which are generally bigger as well. The tiger was 3 meters high compared to the p4's height of 2.68m.

This means that heavy tanks like the tiger are easier to hit, but in theory make up for that fact by having higher HP and armor.

The issue with Tank destroyer right now is the fact their accuracy is too high.

assuming the target have a size of 22 (panzer4).

the jp4/FF 0.04 - 0.06 = 0.88 - 1.32
the Su-85 .04 - .055 = .88 - 1.21
the m36 .035-.05 = .77 - 1.1

this completely nullify the advantages of having a smaller target size. Even with the 50% accuracy penalty, a moving td still achieve an accuracy of 44% against medium tank.

TD doesn't need their current insane accuracy to counter heavy tank, as heavy tank are easier target to hit.

Assuming a target of 26 (tiger and king tiger).
panzer4 .025-.05 = .65 - 1.3
panther .03-.06 = .78 - 1.56

this means the extreme accuracy on the TD are complete overkill. Their accuracy could go down to .025-.05 and still be good against heavy. the Su-76 currently have an accuracy of .025-.05

(atg are different since they are support weapon. I've left out the stug since it's only got 50m range)

So, saying StuG and and Jpz4 and JgTig and Elefant should be hard nerfed.
As well as anything Anti-Tank gun, PAk38, Pak40, Pak43, 17 pdr, firefly.
Let's all give them -99% to hit.

Also make mortars incapable of hitting MGs and buildings.
And make ...

Basically remove any counter to anything.

"I love scissors, therefore, rocks should be banned".
That's what you are saying.

i vote to add I win button for Axis if survive for 20 minutes to simplify the topic.

On the SU85 and Jackson getting pen bonus instead of high ROF, it's because it was
overperforming vs Pz4. So now, it doesn't eat up Pz4 quite so fast. And it can pen
Super heavies more consistantly.

If you guys want to see Jackson and SU85 go back to their high dmg, low pen ways,
then you'll basically see why things were changed in the first place.

PS: Also, mass super heavies demonstrates that there's no balance in 4vs4

What they want is tds to be worse vs mediums, but still strong vs heavy armor. You could lower the rof and buff pen to get the same result.

They just did that.

Jackson dmg went from 240-200 to 200-160. Got Pen bonus.
SU85 was 160 dmg with hugh ROF. It's ROF got nerfed, got Pen bonus.

So, saying StuG and and Jpz4 and JgTig and Elefant should be hard nerfed.
As well as anything Anti-Tank gun, PAk38, Pak40, Pak43, 17 pdr, firefly.
Let's all give them -99% to hit.

Also make mortars incapable of hitting MGs and buildings.
And make ...

Basically remove any counter to anything.

"I love scissors, therefore, rocks should be banned".
That's what you are saying.

i vote to add I win button for Axis if survive for 20 minutes to simplify the topic.

On the SU85 and Jackson getting pen bonus instead of high ROF, it's because it was
overperforming vs Pz4. So now, it doesn't eat up Pz4 quite so fast. And it can pen
Super heavies more consistantly.

If you guys want to see Jackson and SU85 go back to their high dmg, low pen ways,
then you'll basically see why things were changed in the first place.

PS: Also, mass super heavies demonstrates that there's no balance in 4vs4

I explicitly mentioned that I am not including the ATG in the very first sentence. On my closing sentence I also reiterate that I am not including the atg, as well as adding that I am not including the stug to the discussion.

I doubt you actually read my post carefully before trying to rant, if you somehow missed my first and last sentence.