USF Mortar Halftrack meta

I'm going to tell you, you are right that it is extremely powerful vs ost. It's ONLY when they use the MG/Mortar delay strat, which is easy for all skill levels to do and very comfortable to play. Being able to block off large swaths of the map with the most effective mg in the game, from the start of the game while opponent has no easy way to fight back is very unfair. As the skill level goes up, the strat becomes even harder to break. I was losing something like 80% of my games vs WM because by the time I got them off a valuable resource, they had the resources (from hogging them all and not losing mp sitting around) to easily tech up and counter attack with armor and start that whole thing.

The HT wasn't just an I win button either, it let me get some players off of a resource, but I still had to EARN 3 command points to bring it onto the field. That means a lot of MP drain organizing mostly futile raids on the weakest area I could identify. Still being the resource loser. I've seen a lot of players using the pak38 quite well force firing into the fog. So it's not always game over when the ht comes out. Some people use 222 and it does work, especially when I can't afford mines and bazookas because I have no fuel or munitions!

Maybe the ht is OP versus this strategy, but I'm ok with that. It just means now some players are going to have to step outside their comfort zone and try a different way of playing. Just like I had to do, bringing in that ht which I never used much in the past.

The unit should be less cost effective than Ostheer MHT the same way USF mortar less cost effective than Ostheer mortar.

the USF mortar team was an ill conceived unit causing more problem than it ever solved.

The USF didn't need a mortar that early in the match and to fit one they had to over nerf the rifleman(no smoke) and make the usf mortar a joke late game.


The Mortar HT is a mid-late game arriving at around the time wehr and okw would be solidifying their position and make assault/flank too costly.

on the other hand, the wehr should be buying the lmg42 upgrade and becoming less reliant on the support weapon.(which is probably the wehr's great strength and weakness)

I am pretty confident that unit composition is able to counter other units. Lemon has a good build that he had seemingly good results with so I will not copypasta the entire thing when you can read it yourself here https://www.coh2.org/topic/66462/2v2-usf-infantry-company I personally prefer the M15 build because I feel that it gives me a safe zone to work around with and pull back to while being good at supporting pushes as well. The build was done before the December patch but most USF units in the build weren't affected by that except the slight toning down of the Mortar HT. I am positive that this strat is still very viable to do and will yield acceptable results.

And now the part I dislike in balance discussions the most: personality politics. First of all I don't think I'm complaining. I have not made a single demand to nerf the Mortar HT to oblivion because I can't beat the cheese strat. The replay alone shows that is false. I want to see the consensus about how people feel about it, nothing more and nothing less while trying to show how flexible the build can be.
I have repeated this fact several times by now and I'm starting to think its falling on deaf ears.
I will still criticize counterarguments and make them myself but that is definitely not complaining. It's called debating. And if you look closely you will also notice I have never complained about the Infinite Vickers Range Bug, USF bulletin stack nor Gliders that could instakill OKW HQs. I wonder what conclusions we can draw from this. A simple minded person might say I have not bothered to post that much in the past and quote me on my previous reply that I wanted to keep this topic a bit more limited so that focus point would not get too large to make a fleshed out argument in acceptable time constraints. (If I'd want to make a good thread about the indirect in coh that would probably take several hours for the initial post so that it would contain all the things and perspectives a good argument requires and so that it would meet my personal standards)

Well you want something to be changed but only looking at one coin's side. USF mortar HT counter a certain Ostheer strat the same way spamming Ostheer mortat HT was countering an UKF particular strat when UKF structures were super strong. Few were complaining about the Ostheer MHT at that time and it hasn't been nerfed for reason, right the opposite in fact since UKF structures were nerfed and then Ostheer stopped naturally using MHT in every single game vs UKF.
Modders created a gap in USF design by removing smoke from RMs in the last patch, even if they had good arguments to take that decision. As a result, to fight multiple HMGs and Mortar combo, the USF MHT is the best tool as per today but I'm pretty sure that if
1- Give back smoke to USF RMs
or
2- Nerf overall mortar to Soviet's one level
People would stop to feel the need to call more than one of them if using one of the 2 commanders having it.

Before we nerf usf mortar half-tracks nerf ostheer's mortars and give usf a scout car or a sniper to deal with mg spammers. Ostheer players who spam double mortars and mgs every game start the mortar wars in the first place. Nerf both or nerf none!

Well you want something to be changed but only looking at one coin's side. USF mortar HT counter a certain Ostheer strat the same way spamming Ostheer mortat HT was countering an UKF particular strat when UKF structures were super strong. Few were complaining about the Ostheer MHT at that time and it hasn't been nerfed for reason, right the opposite in fact since UKF structures were nerfed and then Ostheer stopped naturally using MHT in every single game vs UKF.
Modders created a gap in USF design by removing smoke from RMs in the last patch, even if they had good arguments to take that decision. As a result, to fight multiple HMGs and Mortar combo, the USF MHT is the best tool as per today but I'm pretty sure that if
1- Give back smoke to USF RMs
or
2- Nerf overall mortar to Soviet's one level
People would stop to feel the need to call more than one of them if using one of the 2 commanders having it.

Nice to see we're back on track with the more objective arguments . I can work with that.

Tbh I don't think the Ostheer HT was able to counter simcity that well at all in the last patch because of the repairs of Royal Engineers and Rep Stations from simcity doc. Never saw a game where that was able to counter it. And Ostheer mortar HTs were definitely in non-meta doctrines that were't often in loadouts (Elephant, Lightning War and Elite Troops was pretty much the meta combo, Spearhead didn't really contribute much compared to those except a theoretical way to deal with simcity) Usually the OKW leig spam was the way to go to slowly pick the emplacements apart.

I tried to get some more replay samples this morning but I have yet to get a good showcase match. Also I find it at least initially difficult to get used to the mortar HTs when I like the mobility of the normal USF mortar more and my standard build isn't too compatible with the Mortar HT strat. (lots of bugsplats and skill differences making games 2v3s etc, only good game I had would be better suited to a Jackson in a good spot right now discussion)

One of the reasons I'm not discussing the Ostheer support weapon meta is because its always been there and is not a new phenomenon. USF mortar HTs then again seem to be used much more nowadays even though USF has always struggled with weapon teams. So this is part of the reason I want to discuss this more recent meta. But as a side note I think that especially the brit mortar pits kept the Ostheer support teams on their toes and people didn't want to commit too much into them because of the fear of instagib counterbarrages and random hits wiping them. Now that wehr mortars are back on the top of the food chain they are used more liberally again. I find it equally frustrating when a 6 model con squad gets oneshotted, equally frustrating when a wehr support weapon gets instantly decrewed by a 120mm, equally annoying when your riflemen die to a single leig shell.

Now for the second reason I mentioned briefly earlier. I know this thread might seem biased and one sided. I would have no issue with someone making a quality thread about the entire concept of indirect fire, its questionable RNG elements and skill involved with using it with ideas for possible reworks etc. I would very much like to read and contribute to such a topic. But the issue is that it would require a lot of time and effort to make it a quality thread without it degrading into a whinepost with zero substance and being a competition about who can spam the most and yell the loudest. I think it might be harmful to discuss such a topic unless there are enough facts, replay evidence, viewpoints, consideration of snowball effects etc. If its done lazily there is a risk wrong conclusions might be made and balance changed in a negative way. (example: Katysha is underperforming --> better make it oneshot an OKW HQ to make it more useful) Personally I just don't have the time and motivation to start such a wide topic and provide all the necessary facts, evidence and deductions to make the thread a meaningful one.

As a final thing I find it a bit discouraging there has been total radio silence from Relic and the balance team. No confirmation of new patches, no feedback surveys about current gameplay, nothing. This is nothing new, just business as usual for Relic but still I never liked the lack of transparency on things where there was no need for it at all. For example let's say that someone wrote a brilliant novel length thread about how to make the soviet pea shooter AT gun viable in the meta. A lot of time and effort would have been invested into it. I think it would be pretty frustrating to hear that The Scope (tm) decided that the peashooter was forever to be fine as is and there would be no chance of it ever getting a rework. This is part of the reason I don't want to over-invest into a huge thread without knowing if it is going to be of any use. If the community would get hints into what things to focus their attention and what units performance should be discussed in the wake of coming changes I think the balance discussions might be a lot more fruitful.

If I had to make a personal partial rework of the light artillery pieces I might want to see autofire scatter increased a lot so that actual micro was needed in directing barrages. That way most mobile infantry would stay relatively safe by shifting cover and not getting bombarded to bits if they wouldn't be on the move at all times. Then again the barrages would get more accurate every shot so players who wouldn't react would get punished the most while the players who relocated weren't punished as severely (lower change of instagibs in general would be the result I would like to have)

Individual differences to factions could be done with different starting accuracy on the barrages, faster RoF on consecutive shells etc. The concept probably wouldn't work on large artillery pieces since counterbattery would always get to pinpoint accuracy at some point and kill the howi of the opposing side. That would start an endless cycle of one howi instagibbing another and having a new one build to instagib the previous one etc.

This direction would be my initial suggestion if I personally could dictate the direction artillery rework should take but CoH or any other game should never be changed on the basis of an opinion/ viewpoint of a single person and without it having the support of the majority of the playerbase.

One of the reasons I'm not discussing the Ostheer support weapon meta is because its always been there and is not a new phenomenon. USF mortar HTs then again seem to be used much more nowadays even though USF has always struggled with weapon teams. So this is part of the reason I want to discuss this more recent meta. But as a side note I think that especially the brit mortar pits kept the Ostheer support teams on their toes and people didn't want to commit too much into them because of the fear of instagib counterbarrages and random hits wiping them. Now that wehr mortars are back on the top of the food chain they are used more liberally again. I find it equally frustrating when a 6 model con squad gets oneshotted, equally frustrating when a wehr support weapon gets instantly decrewed by a 120mm, equally annoying when your riflemen die to a single leig shell.

It has always been there and USF RM smoke nade as well till recently. You have to remember what you did as USF when facing multiple HMGs and Mortars = even before unlocking the lieutenant, unlocking grenades. Giving Rear Echelon smoke was an interesting idea but you have to be honest, who the fuck is going to build 3 RE to smoke areas while flanking.
In order for the USF player to play that combined arm strategy they need to:
1- 3 or 4 RM, as usual
2- 1 or 2 more RE squad to deal smoke
3- 1 Mortar to deal smoke
4- Unlock the super expensive grenade upgrade for USF.

Last point, smokes are harmless, all that shit for 0 (zero) damage, USF mortar is pathetic you can have it vet3 with 1-4 kills on regular basis, RE squads are pathetic early game before being upgraded. Spending so much manpower, fuel and munition on them for being able to only smoke stuff. \o/

At the end, i'm not saying this is impossible, maybe it works but at which cost.

So there comes the USF MHT.

...Giving Rear Echelon smoke was an interesting idea but you have to be honest, who the fuck is going to build 3 RE to smoke areas while flanking.
...

You are simply exaggerating. Smoke is also available to officers so one does need to make 3 RE and mortars to have access to smoke.

USF where design to have the least cost effective support weapons and currently they have one of the best MHGs and extremely mobile mortar protected by some of the best infantry in the game and have easy access to smoke.

They do not need one of an OP MHT on top of that.

the old soviet 82mm mortar was fine, before the flare change turned it into one of the best scout in the game.

personally I think autofire should be nerfed across the board with longer reload. Barrage ability should be left alone.

Lastly, the introduction of the tech tree USF mortar was a serious mistake. The USF didn't need a mortar early game and their mid-late game artillery is served by the pack howitzer.

aa scatter in FOW to 50 % and reduce the range to 60 for aa but buff the barrage scatter number of shells and cd for all mortar

USF is fine leave them alone OST mortar is OP for default unit

I think that the USF mortar HT needs to cost 40 fuel like the Ost mortar HT for starters. It has one more ability as well. I'm not sure if it needs further adjustment.