Performance and cost efficiency of massed SU76s vs SU85

Howdy!

Recently I've begun to see a "comeback" of an SU76 spam meta in team games. In my games they've proven very effective even at late stages of the game and usually accompanied by Mark Vehicle making them shred armor.

In most situations I think if the Soviets had gone for SU85s instead of SU76 spam to counter heavy armor the outcome would have been much worse for the Allied side. Even though their penetration is not enough to guarantee every shot to penetrate premium armor and up their rate of fire and veterancy bonuses compensate that a lot.

The synergy of SU76 together with lategame TDs like Jacksons and Fireflies seems to be better compared to SU85s as well, especially when they are used to counter flanks with their mobility and rate of fire. (usually the flanker has rear armor exposed to the SU76 so penetration will probably not be an issue)

The cost of under 300 manpower and 70 fuel makes them decently low risk to use and losses are much easier to recover from compared to SU85 losses for example. Also with correct doctrines you can ignore Soviet t4 entirely so one will also save up on teching costs. The barrage ability itself isn't too spectacular but massed SU76 barrages can easily kill support weapons and do serious damage to OKW trucks from relative safety and quickly. When many other TDs and AT guns are idle when there's no armor around to engage the SU76s extra utility makes it possible to shift focus to combat support weapons or act as light artillery instead getting more bang for your buck. The spotting ability can also be useful from time to time even though it is not overly strong. Also the low popcap of 8 doesn't cripple your popcap as quickly compared to massed SU85s, Panthers or JP4s for example.

Naturally there are counters for SU76 spam, Pak walls or spammed raketens. My issue with such counters is that it leads to a-moving AT gun walls and blobs to cover for them and I think it's not good for the gameplay experience if you have to counter light T3 tank destroyers with a-move blobbing tactics. Also the SU76s ability to be pretty reliable against even expensive late game axis armor makes it a bit peculiar indeed when you need a Heavy Tank Destroyer to fight against the non-doctrinal su76 horde produced from T3.

I've included a replay from my latest SU76 experience where I observed the effectiveness of SU76s even from long range against Panthers and KT's front armor. Especially the (not well microed) Panthers got bursted down extremely fast, probably faster than an SU85 could have done the job. Only piece of Armor that could safely go toe-to-toe against the su76s was an Elephant.

(And I know this replay is a 4v4 MLG match but I think the basic concept can be applied for less competitive game modes )

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  SweetrollWerfingInAGoodSpot Red [S.T.A.R] Bleckdragon Assasin

  314719643 [Phoenix] ЯUSSIANS ARE GODS MIYUKIAOI

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  Example replay for thread

  by: SweetrollNearTheDoor map: Steppes

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I'd like to hear your opinions: Is it beneficial to the gameplay experience to have a light tank destroyer that seems to perform better at its job than it's bigger T4 counterpart while being cheaper to tech, produce and be more affordable to popcap while having added utility of artillery barrages and being easier to replace losses along with better mobility. Also it's ability to render even axis lategame armor vulnerable to being bursted down by spamming the SU76s instead of going T4 for lategame TD is a bit peculiar. Especially when the T4 counterpart might perform worse against the lategame armor.

Su-76 is simply OP. The XP value of the unit is too low, it's far penetration is too high, it's vet 1 ability "tracking" should be replaced by barrage.

I did point out that the unit is op before DBP since TD where in scope and it fell on deaf ears.

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... even lower than Su-76 which actually goes up near stug III levels when reaching vet 2 (about the same time Stug would reach vet1)
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Hey that's a great replay - it seems that the SOV player has been using the same strategy for a while and has mastered microing that many units at once. Steppes is also the map to do this kind of spam on, it wouldn't work elsewhere.

Hey that's a great replay - it seems that the SOV player has been using the same strategy for a while and has mastered microing that many units at once. Steppes is also the map to do this kind of spam on, it wouldn't work elsewhere.

That really didn't include any thoughts on the matter of SU76 seemingly performing better than it's T4 counterpart. That map specificness isn't a sufficient explanation imo since they both are non-turreted TDs with similar roles so a map that isn't good for SU85 probably isn't optimal for SU76 either.

It didn't include any of my thoughts, i just said that I watched the replay and that I consider it as a great example - I was agreeing with your thoughts that this unit is peculiar for this given game-type, and map and strategy.

It didn't include any thoughts, just that I watched the replay and that I consider it as a great example - I was agreeing with your thoughts that this unit is peculiar for this given game-type.

Just wanted to point out you didn't really discuss the original matter of performance between SU76 vs SU85, no offense intended

(And I don't think the replay is that special since the rank difference between players is so huge, in the hands of top Soviet players it would have been much more effective but it was my latest encounter with SU76 spam and if I wouldn't have seen it coming from the bulletin picks I might have chosen a wrong doctrine and not go Elephant. If that were the case the cheese would probably have been much more effective )

snip

The SU85 is not a bad unit but the SU76 is so OP atm its better to spam them.

the SU76 is cheap, vets super fast, fast firing, and still able to reliably pen and do damage to heavies when massed. The su76 imo should not be able to pen heavy tanks as much as it does.

Increasing vet requirements, decreasing rate of fire/pen, and/or increasing cost would put it more in line with just a medium counter.

Also the barrage ability gets very strong when done en masse

The XP value of the unit is too low, it's far penetration is too high

That's it for me.

Putting a real cost to barrage and reducing it on vet1 could work as well.

The SU85 is not a bad unit but the SU76 is so OP atm its better to spam them.

the SU76 is cheap, vets super fast, fast firing, and still able to reliably pen and do damage to heavies when massed. The su76 imo should not be able to pen heavy tanks as much as it does.

Increasing vet requirements, decreasing rate of fire/pen, and/or increasing cost would put it more in line with just a medium counter.

Also the barrage ability gets very strong when done en masse

Very reasonable suggestion in my book. SU85 is definitely potent but doesn't have such an amazing burst damage compared to su76 hordes so misplays are more forgivable if you get into an unwanted fight with it.

(One of the things CoH did better imo is tank combat that took longer and rear armor hits had much more of an impact compared to a Jackson duo bursting down a medium tank in 2 volleys no matter if its front or rear armor. The recent GeneralsGentlemen vCoH shoutcast had some exciting tank combat moments, which feel much rarer in CoH2)

I think SU76 is one of those units that when massed have exponential growth in their efficiency instead of proportional growth. I'd say same applies at least to several artillery pieces, like Katyshas or Panzerwerfers. One piece rarely has a huge impact on its own but when massed they can turn a game in seconds and sometimes with very little counterplay.

Very reasonable suggestion in my book. SU85 is definitely potent but doesn't have such an amazing burst damage compared to su76 hordes so misplays are more forgivable if you get into an unwanted fight with it.

(One of the things CoH did better imo is tank combat that took longer and rear armor hits had much more of an impact compared to a Jackson duo bursting down a medium tank in 2 volleys no matter if its front or rear armor. The recent GeneralsGentlemen vCoH shoutcast had some exciting tank combat moments, which feel much rarer in CoH2)

I think SU76 is one of those units that when massed have exponential growth in their efficiency instead of proportional growth. I'd say same applies at least to several artillery pieces, like Katyshas or Panzerwerfers. One piece rarely has a huge impact on its own but when massed they can turn a game in seconds and sometimes with very little counterplay.

They do because of how the units works. Low cost means easy to spam. Having multiple also means that they overall do more damager per volley meaning they are a danger to heavies because multiple negate the low damage each individual shot does meaning 2,3,4 76s will be more cost effective than a su85. (Also means you dont technically have to tech up which gives you more fuel for more 76s).

Welp, I decided to hop on the other side of the aisle and get some first hand experience with SU76 spam. Soviets are not my strongest suite so I had to rely on cheesy double sniper builds to get through early game, which must have been extremely frustrating for the Axis side. I've also never done such a cheese strategy with SU76s before so there were some misplays and questionable build orders as a result. This strategy definitely requires some practice to get used to it.

I managed to get three replays trying to get the most out of SU76 hordes. Rest of my time went to Radar Simulator Deluxe and I know it is not the greatest sample size. 2 of the games were pretty average ones but I think SU76s were indeed an excellent replacement for clunky SU85s. (also it turns out it's not the best idea to try and use non-turreted units on Essen and forcing this build on every map is not super effective *mind blown* ) I found their ability to burst down medium armor very quickly from the front quite scary. Also the freebie barrages will clear support weapons and are good at harassing blobs when massed. The low cost and saved resources from ignoring T4 made replacing them extremely easy and it felt always worthwhile to trade an SU76 for axis armor piece. (Turns out it's pretty difficult to lose a TD with 60 range if you keep kiting and don't get greedy) ISU152 with Mark Vehicle seemed to be the natural commander pick for this commander but I found that Mark Target is not even needed most of the time because of the good rate of fire from the TDs.

The Redball Express match gave the best environment to use this strat with it's good pathing and large open areas. I also got an opportunity to headbutt a Heavy Tank Destroyer with my 3 vetted SU76s without Mark Target and I must say the result was pretty baffling. Overall I think most of the losses I took were because of my own greed and lazy micro, not because my opponent outplayed me. Suffiecient recon with flares etc will keep SU76s from harms way most of the time. Pathing issues and traffic jams probably are the greates threat but that applies to most tanks. (As a final sidenote my poor sniper micro did't really get punished especially on Redball Express where i forgot them in red cover in front of a blob or in front of an MG which I think is pretty peculiar indeed)

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  coatol5 SweetrollWerfingInAGoodSpot Chairman meow Degreez

  ☠Dead Morose☠ ★Dr_Feelgood93★ necromency CCOOHH

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  Utility and synergy of SU76 spam

  by: SweetrollNearTheDoor map: Unknown

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  SCHWVEN[KOR] SweetrollWerfingInAGoodSpot M-Reimu Shifty

  :-: xxxxxxxxxxx 101st Airborne Division VG qwe055137

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  Trying to make SU76 work on a map with pathing issues

  by: SweetrollNearTheDoor map: Essen Steelworks

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  Lu3yfer SweetrollWerfingInAGoodSpot Degreez Dick Johnson

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  First SU76 build

  by: SweetrollNearTheDoor map: Unknown

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Their range needs to come down to normal tank destroyer levels (pretty much all TDs have 50 range except the SU-76 which for some reason has 60) and their penetration needs to come down such that they're less effective than their weight in SU-85s versus a heavy tank.

Not sure if making it useless late game is an viable option. The SU-76 is fine on its own, so if the problem is spam why not simply strongly increase its popcap so spaming it comes at a cost.

Not sure if making it useless late game is an viable option. The SU-76 is fine on its own, so if the problem is spam why not simply strongly increase its popcap so spaming it comes at a cost.

You might want to take a look at the replays. Do you think it is beneficial to the gameplay experience when three Su76s kill an Elephant frontally? A late game doctrinal heavy tank destroyer countered without any flanks, without Mark target and with a significantly smaller investment with a unit Elephant should be able to hardcounter. (Snowball effect from damage buff and RoF buffs from veterancy + good penetration to begin with)

... Suffiecient recon with flares etc will keep SU76s from harms way most of the time....

To make things even worse Flare are not essential since the vet 1 ability "tracking" increases sight so that one can see targets or do not suffer FOW penalty and the mini map information allows to avoid rakketen or barrages packs from out side their range.

Their range needs to come down to normal tank destroyer levels (pretty much all TDs have 50 range except the SU-76 which for some reason has 60) and their penetration needs to come down such that they're less effective than their weight in SU-85s versus a heavy tank.

That is incorrect. SU-85, FF, M36, JP 4 and Su-76 all have a range of 60.

That is incorrect. SU-85, FF, M36, JP 4 and Su-76 all have a range of 60.

So it is. I apologise.

So it is. I apologise.

No need for apologies we all make mistakes. Acknowledge them is enough.

a nerf in the vet requiriment is a must.
now for the other changes : options
1)nerf the range to 50
2)reduce far pen
3)remove the barrage form vet 0
4)increase price and pop cap

Time to switch to Soviets.

a nerf in the vet requiriment is a must.
now for the other changes : options
1)nerf the range to 50
2)reduce far pen
3)remove the barrage form vet 0
4)increase price and pop cap

Of those I'd say the far penetration nerf is my favourite. That'd let you counter SU-76 spam with Panthers, giving you a good reason to tech T4 as Ostheer.

I'd hate to see the barrage locked behind vet. I love having strong Vet 0 utility abilities on light vehicles as it gives you a good reason to build them in the late game. I wish the Stuart and Puma would get the same treatment the AEC got.