OKW Heavy Vehicle doctrines and King Tiger

I have always found the Breakthrough doctrine strange, because it is a very aggressive commander based around pushing the enemy lines, but it comes with a very slow and defensive unit that really has no place in any aggressive build. The King tiger however is a very aggressive unit that is great for pushing into enemy territory, which is why I often get a King Tiger instead of a Jagdtiger when I play Breakthrough doctrine.

However, this isn't the only time that I pick the King Tiger over a specific call in. Sometimes I will choose to get a King Tiger instead of the Command Panther or the Sturmtiger, because only one can ever be controlled by a single player. I think that in this way the King Tiger keeps these vehicles from being used as much and takes away some of the risk and "flavor" of selecting certain doctrines.

For these reasons I think that the King Tiger would fit very well in the Breakthrough doctrine, because it better works with the doctrine's aggressive strategy and it would actually help those who love the King Tiger, because as a doctrinal unit it would not require all three trucks to be set up, instead just the Schwerer HQ and command points.

The Jagdtiger would work very well in the Elite Armored doctrine, because unlike the Sturmtiger, it would actually be able to use HEAT rounds which is one of the doctrines best abilities. This would allow the Jagdtiger to once again two shot medium tanks and better kill heavies and soft targets, which will further distinguish itself from the King Tiger. I don't think that this will be OP either, because of the required munitions cost of HEAT rounds and the short time period of the HEAT rounds ability.

As for the Sturmtiger I think it would fit well into the Overwatch doctrine, because of the doctrines focus on vision and explosives which the Sturmtiger both requires and provides. The Sturmtiger would replace For The Fatherland!, because it is an awkward ability and doesn't fit well with the theme of the doctrine.

I think that these changes would improve all of these doctrines and the performance of all of these OKW heavy vehicles and hopefully increase the number of these vehicles being played, because right now you really only ever see the King Tiger.

The Jagdtiger would work very well in the Elite Armored doctrine, because unlike the Sturmtiger, it would actually be able to use HEAT rounds which is one of the doctrines best abilities. This would allow the Jagdtiger to once again two shot medium tanks and better kill heavies and soft targets, which will further distinguish itself from the King Tiger. I don't think that this will be OP either, because of the required munitions cost of HEAT rounds and the short time period of the HEAT rounds ability.

Why would you need Heat rounds on a JT? It does enough damage as is an there would be much salt.

not jagdtige ror KT is the problem...it is the Sturmtiger

AVRE can be use super easy as super agrressive playstile. you can reload on the mave an push back all unit wipe them...roll into the 2. line /behind shotblockers and wait till reload....



ST need to be defensive....wait 5min that the enemy make a big fail move and use it...roll back to base and reload...than back to front and wait 5min again

Tiger should be normal unit, King Tiger should doctrinal. Why can both factions build a Panther, but neither can build a Tiger? Seems a wasted opportunity to me. Give the Tiger some love

Give 1 the Panther standard and the Tiger Ace doctrinal, and the other gets Tiger normal and Panther leader doctrinal.

yes let's give overwatch another useless unit right ? https://youtu.be/xnPjouXv-oA?t=7m5s
i think giving the m42 at gun would buff windustry remove the kv 8 immaright ?

The KT does feel odd being a default unit, however if you remove it that would mean that the OKW would be down one very heavy tank unit.

And the JT is very odd anywhere but a Tank Hunter/Defensive doctrine, and Elite Armor isn't exactly that, neither is Overwatch.

The Sturmtiger as well, maybe put it in Breakthrough? I have absolutely no idea as it's a very specific type unit, or perhaps a Wunderwaffen doctrine? It would be interesting as you could put some more rare units in there.

Anyhow, I know it's off topic but I'd appreciate a Hummel as well, and yes yes I know I'm day dreaming about Relic making new doctrines to fit specific units and adding entirely new units but hey, a guy can dream.

The KT does feel odd being a default unit, however if you remove it that would mean that the OKW would be down one very heavy tank unit.

I started a conversation in the shout box, that the KT seems like more of a comeback mechanic for aggressively placed tier 4 trucks. In most games you never build all 4(3) trucks. Then you start getting rekt and lose your tier 4 and you are basically out of the game for a long time (fuel cost/time to build). The KT was a requirement to keep a presence on the field. In order to be a one click comeback it needed to be somewhat OP. However it was too OP last patch so people just built the KT right away. It is probably in a better spot this patch, however you die a little every time you see one made since it instills no fear. More joy from the enemy because they get to kill it and vet up

This is also why the Luchs was so important to be stronk. Letting you skip the Medic HQ. Since it has the lowest fuel cost late game to build. Go Luchs, then Panthers until you lose your T4. Then make the medic truck and call in the KT. Mid to late game you have decent infantry and good armor. Late game switch to great infantry with healing and slow dominant armor.

TL/DR
OKW is probably in a good spot now. Just like other armies, their intended play style is just changed a little. KT could use a small buff if tier 4 is ever going to be used as designed.

I think its 4 years late for this thread.

the only real problem i see on the KT is the very slow turret drive. it may be still slow (as a whole vehicle), so you are on the backfoot on big maps vs dedicated TDs, but thats fine i guess. its no longer a no brainer that oneshots every squad in sight

I started a conversation in the shout box, that the KT seems like more of a comeback mechanic for aggressively placed tier 4 trucks. In most games you never build all 4(3) trucks. Then you start getting rekt and lose your tier 4 and you are basically out of the game for a long time (fuel cost/time to build). The KT was a requirement to keep a presence on the field. In order to be a one click comeback it needed to be somewhat OP. However it was too OP last patch so people just built the KT right away. It is probably in a better spot this patch, however you die a little every time you see one made since it instills no fear. More joy from the enemy because they get to kill it and vet up

This is also why the Luchs was so important to be stronk. Letting you skip the Medic HQ. Since it has the lowest fuel cost late game to build. Go Luchs, then Panthers until you lose your T4. Then make the medic truck and call in the KT. Mid to late game you have decent infantry and good armor. Late game switch to great infantry with healing and slow dominant armor.

TL/DR
OKW is probably in a good spot now. Just like other armies, their intended play style is just changed a little. KT could use a small buff if tier 4 is ever going to be used as designed.

I think that's a core design problem. If you have noticed they've nerfed something and then had to buff it several times now.

Basically what I imagine the balance process being:

Oh hey let's nerf this, ok but then this needs to be buffed, ok so let's buff this, oh wait but then this needs to be buffed or nerfed as well...

And it's just an endless buff and nerf cycle because the Armies were so retardedly designed.

Example? Sturmpioneers and Volks, Volks were considered too OP so Sturms were given the Panzershreck, but now Sturms seem too weak to be using the Shreck, and now people want Volks to either get the Shreck upgrade back or for the OKW to get proper AT infantry, since if you give a Shreck package to the Obers you'd need them to be in a lower tier, meaning that their AI would need to be nerfed and stuff like that.

Case in point, the Western Front Armies were badly designed, with the sole exception of the Brits who just lack tank traps and a mobile mortar in my opinion, that's about it. And yes a snare but people have been dealing with no snare just fine, if you want a snare just go Special Weapons.

I started a conversation in the shout box, that the KT seems like more of a comeback mechanic for aggressively placed tier 4 trucks. In most games you never build all 4(3) trucks. Then you start getting rekt and lose your tier 4 and you are basically out of the game for a long time (fuel cost/time to build). The KT was a requirement to keep a presence on the field. In order to be a one click comeback it needed to be somewhat OP. However it was too OP last patch so people just built the KT right away. It is probably in a better spot this patch, however you die a little every time you see one made since it instills no fear. More joy from the enemy because they get to kill it and vet up

This is also why the Luchs was so important to be stronk. Letting you skip the Medic HQ. Since it has the lowest fuel cost late game to build. Go Luchs, then Panthers until you lose your T4. Then make the medic truck and call in the KT. Mid to late game you have decent infantry and good armor. Late game switch to great infantry with healing and slow dominant armor.

TL/DR
OKW is probably in a good spot now. Just like other armies, their intended play style is just changed a little. KT could use a small buff if tier 4 is ever going to be used as designed.

I agree that the King Tiger isn't nearly as intimidating as it used to be and that is one of reasons why I think that it should be doctrinal. One of the biggest reasons for why the King Tiger has been nerfed several times is, because it is non doctrinal, so if it was doctrinal, then buffs could be justified and it could arive earlier, because it wouln't require all three trucks to have been built beforhand.

I think its 4 years late for this thread.

All three of these units have been greatly changed since they were introduced and more importantly there positions have been changed. The Sturmtiger used to be non doctrinal and the Elite Armor doctrine used to have the Panzer 4 battle group ability, which could actually make use of the HEAT rounds.

Maybe you could actually give your opinion on the King Tiger instead of just mocking the thread's existence?!

Maybe you could actually give your opinion on the King Tiger instead of just mocking the thread's existence?!

I am guessing from all of the BAN Katitof comments, he could not reply unless it was 4 years ago.

I will go to my room now. Sorry

IMO the KT was fine pre patch aside from 1 shotting squads. They could've just limited explosive weapons damage count on models to say 2-3 depending on the unit. It would've prevented 1 shot wipes and many units would've still kept their lethality. Now the KT has IS2 scatter and is still countered by 1 allied TD at half its cost. If I buy a unit at 720mp and 280f it better be damn lethal. I could've had 2 OKW p4s for that price.

yes let's give overwatch another useless unit right ? https://youtu.be/xnPjouXv-oA?t=7m5s
i think giving the m42 at gun would buff windustry remove the kv 8 immaright ?

I think moving it there would make the Overwatch doctrine more viable and it would also help improve the already awful Elite Armor doctrine with the inclusion of the Jagdtiger. Also the Sturmtiger is nowhere near the awfulness of the soviet M42 AT gun.

IMO the KT was fine pre patch aside from 1 shotting squads. They could've just limited explosive weapons damage count on models to say 2-3 depending on the unit. It would've prevented 1 shot wipes and many units would've still kept their lethality. Now the KT has IS2 scatter and is still countered by 1 allied TD at half its cost. If I buy a unit at 720mp and 280f it better be damn lethal. I could've had 2 OKW p4s for that price.

What?

What?

Firefly/SU85/Jackon > KT at 60 range. Wanna know why? cause they have >50% pen chance and the KT only has 50 range. That doesn't even include things like SU85 self sight, the outrageous pen of the Su76, and tulip rockets.

King tiger's stats are pretty bad at the moment precisely because it is a non doc "super heavy" as I like to call it and thus it isn't even worth going for one. With that being said I would like to see the king tiger strike fear on the enemy once again and the only way for that to happen is if it gets tied to a doctrine and what better doctrine for it than breakthrough?

The jagdtiger would fit a lot better in the overwatch doctrine making that doctrine a little more viable in team games.

As for the sturmtiger I think it would fit pretty well in the feuersturm doctrine which would require an adjustment to the walking stuka barrage (move it to a more apropriate doctrine or to a doctrine that needs it more).

In regards to the elite armored doctrine, I don't think it should have any type of tank attached to it but instead it should focus on greatly improving your existing non doc tanks.

King tiger's stats are pretty bad at the moment precisely because it is a non doc "super heavy" as I like to call it and thus it isn't even worth going for one. With that being said I would like to see the king tiger strike fear on the enemy once again and the only way for that to happen is if it gets tied to a doctrine and what better doctrine for it than breakthrough?

The jagdtiger would fit a lot better in the overwatch doctrine making that doctrine a little more viable in team games.

As for the sturmtiger I think it would fit pretty well in the feuersturm doctrine which would require an adjustment to the walking stuka barrage (move it to a more apropriate doctrine or to a doctrine that needs it more).

In regards to the elite armored doctrine, I don't think it should have any type of tank attached to it but instead it should focus on greatly improving your existing non doc tanks.

I couldn't agree more with what you said about the King Tiger, the King Tiger would better effect the game and preform better in this way.

I could see the Jagdtiger working well in the Overwatch doctrine, but im not sure that the Sturmtiger would work in the Feuersturm doctrine.

Do you jave any what ability should be added to the Elite Armor doctrine if the sturntiger was moved.

So I just realized the first option says that it should be NON doctrinal. I originally read it as the opposite.

Oh well.