Penals are currently unbalanced

+1
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This. Plus it's worth mentioning that pure penal openings have slow map control early on and a competent OKW player will take advantage of that and harass cut off or fuel early on before a critical mass of penals can be achieved. Also, seeing as how last patch nerfed penals if they are unbalanced now then I would like to know what they were before.

Agreed

The reason i wanted PPSHs on the satchel is so there is more choice, SVT and satchel really leaves no reason for the ppsh option and i think satchels (especially being better and more cost effecient option than demo charges) on the most versatile weapon option would defeat part of the choice.

Id love for more DP-28s but i would fear DPs and mosins and grenades would make guards feel less unique or simply not be an attractive option.

I would LOVE for the flamethrower to make a return (ppsh, flamethrower and satchel) but i know 6 man flamer isnt really the most balnced choice, even if it lacks a ranged support weapon but i really enjoyed it from the old penal revamp preview. A focused and exploitable strength/weakness imo IS good for balance

Thats probably true honestly, get one penal with ptrs and 1 with DPs and you dont need guards anymore. Ijust wish the ppshs were more akin to thompsons instead of the mp40s (which honestly needs some sort of buff to not be useless).

It's pretty easy to get beyond the manpower bleed with penals. You have a token squad of cons just to reinforce and merge into your penals. Saves a lot of mp.

This. Plus it's worth mentioning that pure penal openings have slow map control early on and a competent OKW player will take advantage of that and harass cut off or fuel early on before a critical mass of penals can be achieved. Also, seeing as how last patch nerfed penals if they are unbalanced now then I would like to know what they were before.

this is unrelevant in teamgame like 2v2.

It's pretty easy to get beyond the manpower bleed with penals. You have a token squad of cons just to reinforce and merge into your penals. Saves a lot of mp.

i wonder every time why the good player dont use this great feature....it brings much advantage:

- instant full squad
- save MP
- right use it means u doesnt must retreat...when used on field

this is unrelevant in teamgame like 2v2.

Why not? You're telling me that cut-offs and fuel harassment don't matter on maps like Moscow Outskirts and Kharkov to name a few?

i wonder every time why the good player dont use this great feature....it brings much advantage:

- instant full squad
- save MP
- right use it means u doesnt must retreat...when used on field

Because its very micro heavy, it makes at the very least one squad do nothing but move between base and field, if that squad actually performs combat, you're not going to have full health and bleed will increase, you'll be left with under vetted squad by mid game and while cons are better now, its still a suicide. Its worth the effort exclusively in the first 4-5 mins, then lights hit the field and you aren't going to have enough space to not retreat all your squads to heal up as doing otherwise will, again, only increase your bleed despite hypothetical cost decrease and it works only in 2 penal 2 con opening, where you're going to do MUCH better with 3 penals and M3. Cons also have rec acc greater then 1, which means they'll bleed more overall, but transferring their models to other squads means these other squads will not receive the bleed as cons themselves have strong rec acc vet to counteract that weakness.

It used to be a thing in the past, very briefly and only for a niche BO.

Nowadays its an act of desperation, not viable move. That's why its not being used.
AND its greatly inferior to OKW forward reinforcement/blitz truck, ost 251, even derping with USF ambulance and brit forward assembly.

The MP bleed and forward cost makes them hard to field. Its often better to simply go cons and call it a day and hope your guards or shocks do a thing.
Now they've seemed just kinda meh along with the price you pay for them to be fielded.

OFC you can do the whole con merge ability but as katitof noted its a waste of a unit and micro that could be used elsewhere.

It's pretty easy to get beyond the manpower bleed with penals. You have a token squad of cons just to reinforce and merge into your penals. Saves a lot of mp.

Getting a conscript squad to reinforce your penals is not going to save you any manpower at all. Quite the opposite in fact.

I was under the impression the cons who join any other squad are still "con models".

I was under the impression the cons who join any other squad are still "con models".

They are.
Models tranfer with their base stats and inherit other squads weapons.

But yes, they aren't going to save you much mp. Its micro tax that's not worth these 50-100mp on the long run.

Merge is a very good option.

Every model one merges to Penal reduced the cost by 35%, every model one merge to maxim/Dshk has 1.15 less TS.

Actually there is very little micro involved, one select his conscript, press merge and target a unit.

They are.
Models tranfer with their base stats and inherit other squads weapons.

But yes, they aren't going to save you much mp. Its micro tax that's not worth these 50-100mp on the long run.

So they'd still be weaker, right? They retain their conscript damage/accuracy/chance-to-get-hit, etc.

Or is accuracy and damage based on weapon?

Would they replicate the "more damage the fewer of the squad is left" process?

Sorry for the barrage of questions, but while I'm at it, here's a philosophical one:

If a squad of penals is down to 1 unit, is merged with 5 cons, and then the 1 penal dies leaving only the 5 cons, is it truly still the same penal squad?

Because its very micro heavy, it makes at the very least one squad do nothing but move between base and field, if that squad actually performs combat, you're not going to have full health and bleed will increase, you'll be left with under vetted squad by mid game and while cons are better now, its still a suicide. Its worth the effort exclusively in the first 4-5 mins, then lights hit the field and you aren't going to have enough space to not retreat all your squads to heal up as doing otherwise will, again, only increase your bleed despite hypothetical cost decrease and it works only in 2 penal 2 con opening, where you're going to do MUCH better with 3 penals and M3. Cons also have rec acc greater then 1, which means they'll bleed more overall, but transferring their models to other squads means these other squads will not receive the bleed as cons themselves have strong rec acc vet to counteract that weakness.

It used to be a thing in the past, very briefly and only for a niche BO.

Nowadays its an act of desperation, not viable move. That's why its not being used.
AND its greatly inferior to OKW forward reinforcement/blitz truck, ost 251, even derping with USF ambulance and brit forward assembly.

The con squad fights as well. It's not just a shuttle between squads. Just that when you retreat a penal and your con squad, the cons are cheaper and faster to reinforce, so you merge at the HQ. Your penals can then leave instantly while the cons reinforce again. Then they go back out into the field. You are right that it is only really a thing in early game more because you eventually might lose that con squad as you micro-prioritise your penals or other units. You are unlikely to replace the cons once they are gone. Anyway the strategy works to reduce the bleed and field penals more quickly from retreat. Obviously the stats aren't the same between models but guns are as you said and conscripts have unique advantages too. Plus having that con squad around helps in other situations too with merging teem weapons. Overall it's really no more micro intensive than Brit healing.

So they'd still be weaker, right? They retain their conscript damage/accuracy/chance-to-get-hit, etc.

Or is accuracy and damage based on weapon?

Would they replicate the "more damage the fewer of the squad is left" process?

Sorry for the barrage of questions, but while I'm at it, here's a philosophical one:

If a squad of penals is down to 1 unit, is merged with 5 cons, and then the 1 penal dies leaving only the 5 cons, is it truly still the same penal squad?

Damage and accuracy is tied to weapon, not model, weapon does not transfer as its squad dependent.
Transferred models get destination squad weapons, but keep their own base received accuracy, so merged penals are even more fragile.

All the vet bonuses still apply, they just do not tranfer.
If vet3 con got say 40% rec acc bonus and vet3 penal got 20% rec acc bonus, after transfer penal con model will have 20% rec acc bonus and penal weapon.

The con squad fights as well. It's not just a shuttle between squads.

Have you actually tried to play like that?
Because I did, both pre and post penal buff, 2 penal 2 con opening.
That con squad will do absolutely nothing then merge, retreat and do an odd cap.

Damage and accuracy is tied to weapon, not model, weapon does not transfer as its squad dependent.
Transferred models get destination squad weapons, but keep their own base received accuracy, so merged penals are even more fragile.

All the vet bonuses still apply, they just do not tranfer.
If vet3 con got say 40% rec acc bonus and vet3 penal got 20% rec acc bonus, after transfer penal con model will have 20% rec acc bonus and penal weapon.

Thanks for the info m80. I had assumed that the cons would be "weaker" and so didn't really risk merging with superior squads (penals, guards, shocks, etc.) unless I was at risk to wipe.

The fact that they would die sooner does cast some doubt on the "it saves you MP" argument, if time loss itself wasn't enough already.

Though if one were willing to use a con squad as a mobile limited reinforcement platform, I guess you could keep your "stronger squad" out on the field longer.

Though I like using cons as is tbh so eh.

Damage and accuracy is tied to weapon, not model, weapon does not transfer as its squad dependent.
Transferred models get destination squad weapons, but keep their own base received accuracy, so merged penals are even more fragile.

All the vet bonuses still apply, they just do not tranfer.
If vet3 con got say 40% rec acc bonus and vet3 penal got 20% rec acc bonus, after transfer penal con model will have 20% rec acc bonus and penal weapon.

Have you actually tried to play like that?
Because I did, both pre and post penal buff, 2 penal 2 con opening.
That con squad will do absolutely nothing then merge, retreat and do an odd cap.

Yes I sometimes play this, but only in 2v2s and I very much notice the increased manpower. I don't really think about it as I see my cons as damage shield for penals in those early engagements. Or if sent into mg arc Penals can flank more easily. If I happen to see a con squad and penal squad both at base or it in the field I do the merge.

I think cons at vet 1 annul their received accuracy deficit with penals and at vet 3 they are better than penals, roughly speaking.

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Thanks for the info m80. I had assumed that the cons would be "weaker" and so didn't really risk merging with superior squads (penals, guards, shocks, etc.) unless I was at risk to wipe.
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Penal have a Target size of 1 and conscripts of 1.087. The difference is target size is less than 9% while they difference is cost is 35%.

Merging with Penal get your conscripts entities an SVT (and some of the highest veterancy bonuses in game) with no cost.

Merging is a good option in most cases (probably not very good is shock troops unless very tight map)

Penal have a Target size of 1 and conscripts of 1.087. The difference is target size is less than 9% while they difference is cost is 35%.

Merging with Penal get your conscripts entities an SVT (and some of the highest veterancy bonuses in game) with no cost.

Merging is a good option in most cases (probably not very good is shock troops unless very tight map)

Merging is definitely bad when it comes to weapon teams other than maxims and DShK. Standard soviet weapon teams are cheaper to reinforce than cons.