Su-76

Doesnt some artillery have deflection damage though (iirc katyusha), making it able to actually kill off damaged vehicles.

Or I'm just going senile

I think it's doing 25% damage so around 20 per rocket. But it still has around 50 pen (?) so enough chance to pen specially if we account for trajectory which means it can land on the back of tanks.

..

You don't build 222s to counter a Su76 but if you can sacrifice a 222 which is losing value as the game progresses to kill a Su76, specially if it's the first one to be pulled, might as well go for it. I think it's 100% pen from the rear and around 80-100dmg per burst.

I've also stated which kind of changes are needed for the Su76.

You forgot to mention the key facts: SU76 has far superior range and penetration to the Stug. It's a highly dubious claim that Stugs are "much much better" at AT. Stugs only marginally out-range enemy tanks, and tend to get hit a fair bit in return, while SU76 has the range and speed to kite endlessly. The inferior penetration of the Stug really starts to show vs premiums and heavies, while the SU76 has pretty obscene pen values for its cost.

PAK, meanwhile has same range as ZIS but is otherwise a superior AT weapon, and ZIS has 6-man and barrage as advantages.

It really isn't a very useful comparison.

Sadly, none of your statements about the su76 is true. Su76 has less penetration than stug and fights against, in general, better armoured opponents. It also can't "kite endlessly". It actually can't kite at all becouse in 99% of situations it can't shoot on the move. This is becouse su-76 is the only vehicle in game that has a 0 degree firing cone, which means it can't change its line of fire to hit a moving target if its rotation is decided by the path of movement. So while it is possible to draw a path that lets a su76 fire on the move at a moving tank that is close (becouse it is a big target degree wise), it is pretty much impossible to do that on max range.

Sorry but i think you are the only one who would think that way.
49 sight range/70 minimap icon doesn't make the combo nor barrage OP.

Yes it actually does and I am not the only one.

Show Spoiler

The reason it is OP is that it can self-spot up to range 50 for far more accurate barrage and it can also use mini-map info to barrage ATGs outside their range.

I did not read through all the post but:

A) You know that 1 Stug can kill a panther frontal? Had the case, because i played axis vs axis in automatch to exploit abuser

Think that this is both an indication of how OP is stug and how UP is the Panther

Sadly, none of your statements about the su76 is true. Su76 has less penetration than stug and fights against, in general, better armoured opponents.

Penetration of SU-76 is actually higher than stug at same ranges:
Su-76 (0/30/60) 200/190/180
Stug (0/25/50) 200/185/170

Apart from having more armor PzIV are also more expensive than allied medium while in the same time SU-76 is cheaper than Stug.

So imo SU-76 is actually at least as cost efficient as the stug (if not more) since it can hard counter more expensive tanks for a lower cost while it can also spot provide battlefield intelligence and barrage.

A TLDR for those that want one: "waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah"

Also apparently blitz is bad because it doesn't make axis tanks unhittable.

/thread

I mean the fact that I rather get double su76s than one su85 tells me there is something up with them. But I don't think we should take away the utility of the Su76. People seem to forget that players also rather get 2 or more stugs than a Panther. Stug is in the same boat when it comes to being too efficient.

Or are the su85 and panther too inefficient compared to their tier 3 counterparts?

I wouldnt say the su85 isnt effecient (panther could use a wee bit of love tho) but the pen on the su76 really makes the 85 unnecessary if one has already committed to the 76s.

I mean the fact that I rather get double su76s than one su85 tells me there is something up with them. But I don't think we should take away the utility of the Su76. People seem to forget that players also rather get 2 or more stugs than a Panther. Stug is in the same boat when it comes to being too efficient.

Or are the su85 and panther too inefficient compared to their tier 3 counterparts?

Imo stug is clearly OP and Panther is clearly UP.

Imo SU-85 is hardly UP since it can hard counter Super heavies tanks with pop of 20+ while having a Pop of 12 (for the same role Panther has x1.5 pop at 18).

Su-76 on the other hand is very cost effective vs anything with armor up to a Tiger.

Imo stock TDs should be separated in "meduim TDs" designed to counter medium tanks and "heavy TDs" designed to counter "Super heavy" tanks while being less effective vs mediums.

That could be achieved with number of way like:

Medium Tds high chance to hit(vs super heavies) low chance to penetrate (vs super heavies)
Hevay Tds low chance to hit (vs mediums) high chance to penetrate (vs super heavies)

Target tables

Abilities designed to counter specific unit types.

In the case of SU-76 imo:

1) Increasing the XP value is a no brainier.
2) Making barrage a vet 1 ability help the unit be less spam-able for its barrage.
3) Reducing the penetration will make Su-85 a more attractive choice vs units like the Tiger.

Or are the su85 and panther too inefficient compared to their tier 3 counterparts?

From what little games I've played I very rarely see tier three vehicles used, at least for Wehrmacht. Even in team games tier three is shunned in favor of saving up for a Tiger or some other call-in. I thought this last patch was supposed to help the last tier feel more necessary?

The new Jacksons have heavily weakened ostheer t3, though that effect is mostly against USF. (Can you imagine if Jacksons were allowed to keep 200 damage with the 640 health they now have? Eesh.)

Elefants for ostheer, and JTS for OKW were effectively nerfed out of viability.

Tigers were, however buffed in terms of mobility. This is why people are opting for tigers and tiger aces again.

T3 was severely weakened vs USF and it's lategame options were pigeonholed into Tigers rather than T4.

T4 is more accessible, but all that means is ostheer can feed vet sooner until they can get a tiger. Panthers are a trap unless there's been an absurd advantage for axis field presence. Bolded for emphasis because this is/was always overlooked in balance arguments.

Tigers are the only bit of lategame that saw a performance increase for ostheer. Everything else was ignored, or nerfed indirectly and/or directly.

From what little games I've played I very rarely see tier three vehicles used, at least for Wehrmacht. Even in team games tier three is shunned in favor of saving up for a Tiger or some other call-in. I thought this last patch was supposed to help the last tier feel more necessary?

Then you either play a different game or very low ranks..

Then you either play a different game or very low ranks..

Different game mode or skill level is more than enough for completely different meta. For example in 1v1s t-34 rush is pretty common, but not in the highest level.

SU76 spam is cheese, like everything soviet has is.
I haven´t lost one game as soviet this patch without making big mistakes.

Different game mode or skill level is more than enough for completely different meta. For example in 1v1s t-34 rush is pretty common, but not in the highest level.

lol say that to "smart eraly luch" okw they always rage quit in team games when guards and t 34 kill his luch

lol say that to "smart eraly luch" okw they always rage quit in team games when guards and t 34 kill his luch

Luchs made a full circle it now comes at the same time as it did on release

Ok you German loving, only super heavy tank getting, Panther bouncing SABOT 90mm Pershing shot snow flakes. You listen and you listen good. I've been playing this game and watching these forums since the game originally came out. I've seen you German player cry and whine about every single Allied unit in the game until it gets nerfed so hard that unit may as well be a nerf football. You've talked about how the US mortar is OP and the conscripts are so much better than your volks that get STG44s(with out commander ability and Panzerfaust(that has the highest chance to pen out of any inf ability) but the SU-76? MY SU-76? No, that's where I draw the line. The SU-76 is probably the only reasonable AT option that Russia has beside their AT gun.
Even the AT gun though can't compare because the SU-76 isnt going to get circle strafed by a flame half track or scout car or Pz.2. You might say "but Blue AT is meant to counter those" False you guys nerfed that into the ground too so now it takes 2-3 shots to counter with soviet AT(the half track takes 3 in most cases in game). After the 1st shot its over anyways because you're vehicle is already out of its fire arch and killing it. "Just use AT grenade" Oh you mean the Grenade option I need to spend fuel on while volks just get it because they're vet 1? give me a break, some one tell me one solid reason why i need to spend fuel and manpower while axis just gets the ability after vet 1. Which brings us back to the SU-76. The Su-76 has no MG to speak of what so ever, while nearly if not all German tanks get some form of MG(but i dont hear you complaining about that). The main gun vs inf is laughable unless you use barrage in which case its only effective if you stay in one place, but you German players love your A move so they usually do stay still and make nice targets. There is this thing called moving without using A but I highly doubt you guys know what that is(that's your fault, not the games). Next is the SU-76 vs Armor.
The SU-76 is a good trade here for what it cost. It has a good range since its basically a DEDICATED TD(using a 76mm), however it doesn't always pen a Panther, Tiger, or KT(very little on the last 2). In the close to 1000 hours of the game I have played the SU-76 pens a Panther front armor maybe 1/3. So yes if someone can get 3 SU-76s be prepared to lose your one panther when you rush him in like an idiot(I've seen this way too much). If that sounds OP to you then lets talk about how 2 stugs can kill a Jackson and why that makes more sense. As for you guys that say "lets give the stug the same barrage ability as the SU-76 well you are a special kind of person. The SU-76 was using a main gun that was BUILT to be multi purpose. The stug had an early howitzer and later an AT version. These two armaments are NOT the same as a multi role. Which is the reason the stug can pen more often than the SU-76 when it comes to hitting above its weight class. Not to mention the stug has the fastest reload speed of ANY tank in the game. Once again I see no German players saying how OP the stug's reload speed is and asking to get it nerfed. Can anyone explain how an MG42 with AP rounds can do a better job at penning then a 50 cal when it comes to armor? These things just confirm that German players are happy with things that are unbalance if its in their favor.
I'm just sick of seeing these pro-German players getting everything they want(for the most part) and taking anything that's even relatively good away from allies. If you do want to take something away from us then you should at least include what OP thing you are willing to take from yourself.

Show Spoiler

Please show us on this doll where axis players touched you.

Ok you German loving, only super heavy tank getting, Panther bouncing SABOT 90mm Pershing shot snow flakes. You listen and you listen good. I've been playing this game and watching these forums since the game originally came out. I've seen you German player cry and whine about every single Allied unit in the game until it gets nerfed so hard that unit may as well be a nerf football. You've talked about how the US mortar is OP and the conscripts are so much better than your volks that get STG44s(with out commander ability and Panzerfaust(that has the highest chance to pen out of any inf ability) but the SU-76? MY SU-76? No, that's where I draw the line. The SU-76 is probably the only reasonable AT option that Russia has beside their AT gun.
Even the AT gun though can't compare because the SU-76 isnt going to get circle strafed by a flame half track or scout car or Pz.2. You might say "but Blue AT is meant to counter those" False you guys nerfed that into the ground too so now it takes 2-3 shots to counter with soviet AT(the half track takes 3 in most cases in game). After the 1st shot its over anyways because you're vehicle is already out of its fire arch and killing it. "Just use AT grenade" Oh you mean the Grenade option I need to spend fuel on while volks just get it because they're vet 1? give me a break, some one tell me one solid reason why i need to spend fuel and manpower while axis just gets the ability after vet 1. Which brings us back to the SU-76. The Su-76 has no MG to speak of what so ever, while nearly if not all German tanks get some form of MG(but i dont hear you complaining about that). The main gun vs inf is laughable unless you use barrage in which case its only effective if you stay in one place, but you German players love your A move so they usually do stay still and make nice targets. There is this thing called moving without using A but I highly doubt you guys know what that is(that's your fault, not the games). Next is the SU-76 vs Armor.
The SU-76 is a good trade here for what it cost. It has a good range since its basically a DEDICATED TD(using a 76mm), however it doesn't always pen a Panther, Tiger, or KT(very little on the last 2). In the close to 1000 hours of the game I have played the SU-76 pens a Panther front armor maybe 1/3. So yes if someone can get 3 SU-76s be prepared to lose your one panther when you rush him in like an idiot(I've seen this way too much). If that sounds OP to you then lets talk about how 2 stugs can kill a Jackson and why that makes more sense. As for you guys that say "lets give the stug the same barrage ability as the SU-76 well you are a special kind of person. The SU-76 was using a main gun that was BUILT to be multi purpose. The stug had an early howitzer and later an AT version. These two armaments are NOT the same as a multi role. Which is the reason the stug can pen more often than the SU-76 when it comes to hitting above its weight class. Not to mention the stug has the fastest reload speed of ANY tank in the game. Once again I see no German players saying how OP the stug's reload speed is and asking to get it nerfed. Can anyone explain how an MG42 with AP rounds can do a better job at penning then a 50 cal when it comes to armor? These things just confirm that German players are happy with things that are unbalance if its in their favor.
I'm just sick of seeing these pro-German players getting everything they want(for the most part) and taking anything that's even relatively good away from allies. If you do want to take something away from us then you should at least include what OP thing you are willing to take from yourself.

+1


Pretty much. Can't wait for dem ez mode Axis players to try to counter.

Ok you German loving, only super heavy tank getting, Panther bouncing SABOT 90mm Pershing shot snow flakes. You listen and you listen good. I've been playing this game and watching these forums since the game originally came out. I've seen you German player cry and whine about every single Allied unit in the game until it gets nerfed so hard that unit may as well be a nerf football. You've talked about how the US mortar is OP and the conscripts are so much better than your volks that get STG44s(with out commander ability and Panzerfaust(that has the highest chance to pen out of any inf ability) but the SU-76? MY SU-76? No, that's where I draw the line. The SU-76 is probably the only reasonable AT option that Russia has beside their AT gun.
Even the AT gun though can't compare because the SU-76 isnt going to get circle strafed by a flame half track or scout car or Pz.2. You might say "but Blue AT is meant to counter those" False you guys nerfed that into the ground too so now it takes 2-3 shots to counter with soviet AT(the half track takes 3 in most cases in game). After the 1st shot its over anyways because you're vehicle is already out of its fire arch and killing it. "Just use AT grenade" Oh you mean the Grenade option I need to spend fuel on while volks just get it because they're vet 1? give me a break, some one tell me one solid reason why i need to spend fuel and manpower while axis just gets the ability after vet 1. Which brings us back to the SU-76. The Su-76 has no MG to speak of what so ever, while nearly if not all German tanks get some form of MG(but i dont hear you complaining about that). The main gun vs inf is laughable unless you use barrage in which case its only effective if you stay in one place, but you German players love your A move so they usually do stay still and make nice targets. There is this thing called moving without using A but I highly doubt you guys know what that is(that's your fault, not the games). Next is the SU-76 vs Armor.
The SU-76 is a good trade here for what it cost. It has a good range since its basically a DEDICATED (medium) TD(using a 76mm), however it doesn't always pen a Panther, Tiger, or KT(very little on the last 2). In the close to 1000 hours of the game I have played the SU-76 pens a Panther front armor maybe 1/3. So yes if someone can get 3 SU-76s be prepared to lose your one panther when you rush him in like an idiot(I've seen this way too much). If that sounds OP to you then lets talk about how 2 stugs can kill a Jackson and why that makes more sense(maybe cause they cost more ?). As for you guys that say "lets give the stug the same barrage ability as the SU-76 well you are a special kind of person. The SU-76 was using a main gun that was BUILT to be multi purpose. The stug had an early howitzer and later an AT version. These two armaments are NOT the same as a multi role. Which is the reason the stug can pen more often than the SU-76 when it comes to hitting above(190<185 fuck math right ?) its weight class. Not to mention the stug has the fastest reload speed of ANY tank in the game. Once again I see no German players saying how OP the stug's reload speed is and asking to get it nerfed(4.25 vs 4.275 but better pen and vipper). Can anyone explain how an MG42 with AP rounds can do a better job at penning then a 50 cal when it comes to armor? These things just confirm that German players are happy with things that are unbalance if its in their favor.
I'm just sick of seeing these pro-German players getting everything they want(for the most part) and taking anything that's even relatively good away from allies. If you do want to take something away from us then you should at least include what OP thing you are willing to take from yourself.

"i sexually identified as the allied faction personification must write all false statement about most unit not knowing stats like a real fan boy and will fell raped if someone tries to touch me or any of my unit,I dreamed of soaring over the COH2 fields with my Jackson and old comet.People say to me that a person being fanboy personification is Impossible and I’m fucking retarded but I don’t care,I'm balanced. I’m having a plastic surgeon install bugged Sherman cannon. From now on I want you guys to call me “the blue falcon” and respect my right to nerf axis from above and nerf needlessly.If you can’t accept me you’re a fanboyphobe and need to check your forum privilege.Thank you for being so understanding."
i read that comment with this in mind https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMr6JV8FV74

EDIT :most fun fact is that you contradict yourself : su76 is a TD but it has multipurpose gun ?, all at gun have the same damage (m42 no troll please), there was no nerf just your imagination

+1


Pretty much. Can't wait for dem ez mode Axis players to try to counter.

What would be the point? This thread passed the window for reasonable balance discussion a while ago. Now it's just the one faction players raging at each other as they climb to ever greater heights of bias and absurdity.

There is one thing I'll respond to though.

If you do want to take something away from us then you should at least include what OP thing you are willing to take from yourself.

What do you think you mean by us? You don't speak for everyone who plays Soviet. You don't speak for me. Balancing the game isn't a matter of making trades. It's a matter of finding out which units, builds and strategies are dominant and adjusting them so that multiple strategies are viable.

The way these threads constantly degrade into a partisan shouting match between the same people is why the Balance forum has the reputation it does and why it rarely achieves anything.

What do you think you mean by us? You don't speak for everyone who plays Soviet. You don't speak for me. Balancing the game isn't a matter of making trades. It's a matter of finding out which units, builds and strategies are dominant and adjusting them so that multiple strategies are viable.

The way these threads constantly degrade into a partisan shouting match between the same people is why the Balance forum has the reputation it does and why it rarely achieves anything.

he is sexually identifed as the faction itself u touch the faction u touch him