instead of adding a fifth man to grenadier

Keeping grens alive in lategame a pain, they die to AoE so damn fast.

In 2's this is really horrendous, where lategame ost consists of nothing but armor and a train of pio's.




increaseing hp by 2 also means that every infantry force needs another shot to kill grens.
Bulletins that did the same got removed for a good reason.

Maybe im simply just a fuck-tard that needs to stfu about things.
I know nothing about 2v2s :<

Instead of health, what about explosive resistance through target tables? Same effective HP as the +2 vs arty without interfering with the infantry combat.

Maybe im simply just a fuck-tard that needs to stfu about things.
I know nothing about 2v2s :<

But you can learn.

*extents hand*

Or just the ability to recrew heavy weapons with only 2 models instead of 3.

But you can learn.

*extents hand*

*Grabs the glorious hand of God*

Teach me, master!

Instead of health, what about explosive resistance through target tables? Same effective HP as the +2 vs arty without interfering with the infantry combat.

GL going through all explosive profiles and adding a command line and then checking if there are no game breaking bugs.

my suggestion was lowering support weapon damage to something like 60 and the HP of team-weapons also, making these weapon less lethal vs mainline infantry about the same vs support weapons.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/67083/redesigning-support-weapons

Ostheer infantry seem to still be wiped too easily and probably the lethality of weapons need to go down, especially since Ostheer units should serve as the benchmark and currently they seem lackluster.

Wouldn't this change force back the meta to main line infantry spam ? It's been proven that utility is not enough to make a unit desirable.


OP: I'll rather see Pios getting a 5th man upgrade. Let's them recrew weapons easier + improved repairs + not crazy DPS unit.

About Grens on the late game: Double bar with good long range DPS is a mistake. Double Brens is still a mistake.
Adding HP is stronger than adding a 5th man cause you are making a squad stronger without it paying extra mp to reinforce, popcap, easier to hit with indirect, etc.
IF it was possible engine wise, i'll prefer it to be a +5HP/0.95 against explosives but if i understand it well, you need to go through every weapon profile and add a line which should only work against grens.

...Wouldn't this change force back the meta to main line infantry spam ? It's been proven that utility is not enough to make a unit desirable.
...

Don't think it would.

Support weapons vs support weapons would be about the same, flaking infantry vs support weapons would also be about the same.

Mortars and sniper would bleed less the mainline infantry though.

Oh, people think Ostheer could use some global upgrades? What a fascinating idea

Instead of health, what about explosive resistance through target tables? Same effective HP as the +2 vs arty without interfering with the infantry combat.

Somehow I expect something to happen in which Grens are now invulnerable to all explosives and break the game for around 2 weeks

*Grabs the glorious hand of God*

Teach me, master!

Yeah...you wanted to teach us which stat is so superior from ost grens compared to other infantery.

i chekced the stats...and couldnt find any stats which is very much higher than other infntery stats.

maybe you looked at this IS stats?

All they need is resilience. They should be the cement that holds Ostheer together, reliable, versatile infantry.

Being a 4 men squad with modest RA, models drop pretty fast and as soon as you are down to 2 you have to retreat and your field presence is lost. For the same reason they cannot put out much DPS either because they have so little time to actually do it before wiped/retreating.

They are OK at the start (save for IS which beats them so senseless that its not even funny)

Part of the reason is the 4 model design - when you have 5 or 6 rifles shooting at four models, some models will receive twice the attention and drop faster - and also bleed you to hell being the most expensive reinforcement mainline infantry.

You can either

1) Add a 5th model with an Assault Grenadier MP 40, this would make the unit more versatile, much more resilient and dependable infantry but would not interfere much with its core design of being good at long range DPS, since the MP 40 doesn't really add LR DPS. Increase cost to 260 and adjust reinforcement costs accordingly (26/model) to balance the costs and bleed problems. Problem largely solved since it also gives them some scenario where they can beat IS (close range) and yield some protection against Allied facehuggers, but not particularly strong either since neither Kar 98s neither the LMG 42 is good for short range DPS and the MP 40 itself is meh, OR

2) Increase base RA, probably add further RA at Vet 1 like the buffs Conscripts received and Volks have and/or

3) Make Battlephase reasearch work like Global upgrades for Axis infantry like COH1, preferantally making their more tough (Slight Global RA bonus like 3% each BF level) to help them scale.

If feel however the 2 and 3 is not such a good solution because the more rifles shooting at less models is still a problem that cannot be circumvented.

Panzergrens are also problematic IMO, they do not cut it really well for the price but its mainly pricing issue. As 4 man squad they are fine if you have 5 men Grens to hold the line, PzGrens can do other business. But I feel they are simply far too expensive when WFA infantry and the Bundled nerf are considered. Only tiny bit better than SturmPios, come a lot later, after some expensive teching when light vehicle counters are already available.

I think the problem is also that WFA armies simply are too powerful.

Grenadier where supposed to be the DPS dealer and now they are being outgunned from more resilient infantry.

Imo if USF and UKF continue to able to equip 2 weapons those weapon should become cheaper and less effective.

In addition units like the Penals should hold less of punch at the time they get out and become cheaper.

Similar changes should be made to OKW also.

Since high lethality make the game less tactical and more RNG it is the rest of faction that need to adapt to Ostheer and not the other way around.

I would rather see PanzerGrenadiers having a 5th man upgrade that is disable if you already upgraded G42, STG or Pshreck.

The problem with 5th men grenadier upgrade is the LMG and G42 upgrade. At the moment you get it they would become best line infantry in game.

I think the problem is also that WFA armies simply are too powerful.

Grenadier where supposed to be the DPS dealer and now they are being outgunned from more resilient infantry.

I agree that the high DPS of WFA infantry is a fundamental part of the problem - double equipped infantrz has so much DPS that they can even mow down MG 42 crews faster then they can suppress them.

At the very least, WFA DPS curves could be looked at; the long range DPS in particular, either by lowering LR accuracy or adjusting cool down/burst length, accuracy against targets in cover etc. It is particularly true when it comes to Rifleman, they are simply far to versatile DPS wise. They are five men squads came out with five fast firing semi autos that are just as good as long range as individual Kar98s, far superior on the move when positioning and even better the closer you will get. Its quite absurd that they only gain even more superior long DPS, can fire on the move. The 2nd weapon slot could be tied to obtaining a high level veterancy first, for example.

Their DPS curve is simply to versatile and should be at a disadvantage at least at some ranges - this worked beutifully in Coh1 btw where even properly positioned Volks could easily beat otherwise superior riflemen, for example in a long range both in cover firefights. Infantry units of not vastly dissimilar cost should be able to gain advantage over by positioning (cover, engagement range) rather than just brute forcing their way through inferior opponents.

But in COH2 they just have all the tools (fast firing semi autos and BARs that fire on the move) to be a superior maneuvering squad AND a superior slugfest squad.

The problem with 5th men grenadier upgrade is the LMG and G42 upgrade. At the moment you get it they would become best line infantry in game.

Nope, you would not as the number crunching doesn't support this much. The LMG 42 is only able to fire when static and even LMG upgraded Granadier squads are not that hot in overall DPS. They get a good LMG but their base DPS with their four bolt action rifles is lower than the DPS of Allied squads. There shouldn't be a 5th guy with Kar98k of course, because that would be OP (... bolster for the Brits)?However, if the 5th men in the Grenadier squad is in a rather passive role, it can be fairly balanced only to spread incoming fire better along 5 models rather than 4, and provide a bit of . Hence my suggestion that the 5th guy would handed only an MP 40, which doesn't add much DPS at most ranges over 8, which is basically point blank - however it would helps a bit against bum rushes and would open an interesting counterplay option against Tommies.

Grenadiers MUST be versatile as they face very varied threats ranging from Tommies, Penals, Cons, not to mention Doctrinal infantry like Guards, Rangers and Shocks or Commandoes. Wehr has only two kind of mainline infantry and doesn't have elites or early semi-elites like OKW. . OTOH Allied players only face Volks or Grens first, and they are pretty much the same long range bolt action weapons profile (with 5 Volks Kar98 roughly equalling 4 Gren Kar98s, but on an overall tougher squad). They must have answers for each a reasonable outcome IF properly positioned. Panzergrens are a different, rather specialized breed that cannot (as they come at a time you already have several Grens on the field) and should not fully replace or make obsolate Grenadiers and are primary meant as short-medium range infantry. Grens must be the generalist option for the Wehr player that can deal reasonably - not necessarily win against - with all kinds of threats.

What about assigning a 5th man in form of an officer to the squad as an upgrade like the LMG42 that can be unlocked once T3 is researched for 80 mun? He could maybe add a passive ability to give higher line of sight while being in green cover (you know binaculars and shit) while being armed with a pistol only and of course not receiving andy upgrades like G43 or LMG42.

The high cost will then prevent to make it a no brainer upgrade because Ost is already muni starved and the Luger pistol of the officer won't boost the squads DPS at all. The higher LOS would also help Ost's defensive playstyle. Also the squad won't receive the 5th man while on the battlefield, but it has to 'get' the 5th guy from a base structure like Brits.

This solution will make Grens durable in the mid to late game while not overpowering Ost with a too strong Gren/MG42 combo.

What about assigning a 5th man in form of an officer to the squad as an upgrade like the LMG42 that can be unlocked once T3 is researched for 80 mun? He could maybe add a passive ability to give higher line of sight while being in green cover (you know binaculars and shit) while being armed with a pistol only and of course not receiving andy upgrades like G43 or LMG42.

The high cost will then prevent to make it a no brainer upgrade because Ost is already muni starved and the Luger pistol of the officer won't boost the squads DPS at all. The higher LOS would also help Ost's defensive playstyle.

seems a little bit to expansive, when you compare it with the cost from brits 5model upgrade which need to pay once.

try to imagine 5 grens with a 80muni upgrade...and than you havent a MG on them...much to expansive for this little upgrade/ effort/ advantage and the gren overall performanche.

seems a little bit to expansive, when you compare it with the cost from brits 5model upgrade which need to pay once.

try to imagine 5 grens with a 80muni upgrade...and than you havent a MG on them...much to expansive for this little upgrade/ effort/ advantage and the gren overall performanche.

80 muns might really be a tad too much, you're right here. So maybe something like 30-50mun or a combination of 100MP and 30mun should be doable.

...
It is particularly true when it comes to Rifleman, they are simply far to versatile DPS wise. ...

I would argue that Penal's SVT are worse since they follow a linear "curve" making little difference in what the range they fight.

And that is actually turning into trend in late patch where DPS curves become linear.

Nope, you would not as the number crunching doesn't support this much. The LMG 42 is only able to fire when static and even LMG upgraded Granadier squads are not that hot in overall DPS. They get a good LMG but their base DPS with their four bolt action rifles is lower than the DPS of Allied squads. There shouldn't be a 5th guy with Kar98k of course, because that would be OP (... bolster for the Brits)?However, if the 5th men in the Grenadier squad is in a rather passive role, it can be fairly balanced only to spread incoming fire better along 5 models rather than 4, and provide a bit of . Hence my suggestion that the 5th guy would handed only an MP 40, which doesn't add much DPS at most ranges over 8, which is basically point blank - however it would helps a bit against bum rushes and would open an interesting counterplay option against Tommies.

Grenadiers MUST be versatile as they face very varied threats ranging from Tommies, Penals, Cons, not to mention Doctrinal infantry like Guards, Rangers and Shocks or Commandoes. Wehr has only two kind of mainline infantry and doesn't have elites or early semi-elites like OKW. . OTOH Allied players only face Volks or Grens first, and they are pretty much the same long range bolt action weapons profile (with 5 Volks Kar98 roughly equalling 4 Gren Kar98s, but on an overall tougher squad). They must have answers for each a reasonable outcome IF properly positioned. Panzergrens are a different, rather specialized breed that cannot (as they come at a time you already have several Grens on the field) and should not fully replace or make obsolate Grenadiers and are primary meant as short-medium range infantry. Grens must be the generalist option for the Wehr player that can deal reasonably - not necessarily win against - with all kinds of threats.

This is exactly why it would be OP. Grenadiers do not lose their base dps with model drops when they are equiped with LMG. Having a 5th men means their main source of DPS last longer thus put them at the same level than Tommy/dual Bren or Riflemen/dual BAR while costing 240 and 60 munition and having superior support units around them and late game superior armor.
Grenadier problem is the high potentiality of 4men squad wipe on the late game. That's a problem damage design in COh2. Grenadiers were 4men squads on COH1 facing 6men squads rifle and squad wipe has never been such an issue, even knight cross holders were 3men squad and single shot squad wipe wasn't that much an issue, it could happen but that was pure bad luck. Here on COh2, units have been design for that purpose, like the brumbar, churchill Avre or Sturmtiger...

Grenadier do not need to be versatile, versatility is on T1 and T2 units combined arms.

... and late game superior armor.

the panther? stug?