What is the weakness from Jackson?

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I think its best to compare the Jackson to the firefly, since they are now pretty similar and they fight the same units. To compare the Jackson to the panther or many axis tanks doesn't give you a great idea of what you are paying for as they are so different.

640 HP, 60 range 220/210 penetration far 260 penetration near for both. They cost 140 and 155 fuel respectively, so Knowing that the numbers should play out that the firefly is slightly better.

If you do the DPS considering they have such similar penetration you get
Jackson : 24.427480916DPS
FireFly :24.2424242424 DPS

They are doing approximately the same amount of damage. The jackson has 1.2 more speed and nearly twice the accelearation as the firefly
FireFly- Speed: 5.3 Accel: 1.6
Jackson-Speed: 6.5 Accel: 3
(im not an expert on how much this helps but the jacksons definitely faster).

To me it seems like you are getting a cheaper firefly that's more mobile, I think reload or penetration should be decreased slightly to compensate for this inconsistency. Mabye USF should have a better TD as it is their one lategame option I think the jackson can be the best and still be balanced, but I think this should be looked into and the numbers should be made more comparable.

As an aside firefly to me seems like its a middle of the road kind of tank this patch, not too good, not too bad.

(I'm ignoring special abilities b/c idk the best way to compare them).

dude you're so axis biased i don't think you notice it yourself. every post is AXIS UP and allies OP. you're so annoying forreal. to make it worse you're around 4000placed on rankings, and you talk about balance?
pls stop posting things like this.

so back to topic.
rushing a p4 into a jackson will normally win you the fight.(okw p4)
the reason a p4 could bounce agianst any tank (in this case the jackson) is cause the penetration was or is set to low.

Come on man you just gotta get past where its annoying and reach the point where its just funny.

I think its best to compare the Jackson to the firefly, since they are now pretty similar and they fight the same units. To compare the Jackson to the panther or many axis tanks doesn't give you a great idea of what you are paying for as they are so different.

640 HP, 60 range 220/210 penetration far 260 penetration near for both. They cost 140 and 155 fuel respectively, so Knowing that the numbers should play out that the firefly is slightly better.

If you do the DPS considering they have such similar penetration you get
Jackson : 24.427480916DPS
FireFly :24.2424242424 DPS

They are doing approximately the same amount of damage. The jackson has 1.2 more speed and nearly twice the accelearation as the firefly
FireFly- Speed: 5.3 Accel: 1.6
Jackson-Speed: 6.5 Accel: 3
(im not an expert on how much this helps but the jacksons definitely faster).

To me it seems like you are getting a cheaper firefly that's more mobile, I think reload or penetration should be decreased slightly to compensate for this inconsistency. Mabye USF should have a better TD as it is their one lategame option I think the jackson can be the best and still be balanced, but I think this should be looked into and the numbers should be made more comparable.

As an aside firefly to me seems like its a middle of the road kind of tank this patch, not too good, not too bad.

(I'm ignoring special abilities b/c idk the best way to compare them).

Do note that this means the fireflys dps will be higher (negligibly so, still) since both tank destroyers fire off a shot immediately (they don't have to reload first). Also remember to consider vet and upgrades.

The original intention was that the Jackson get the health buff and retain the damage.

The result was incredibly powerful. Like, they could defeat panthers. You could drive 2 jacksons directly at a position covered by an elefant and a panther and win with overwhelming consistency. Only if the jacksons got hung up on each other and started pivoting would they be in danger.



They wanted jacksons (and all standard mediums) two survive 2 shots from elefants or JTs. Consequences of that change werent really explored, much less tested, and alternatives (Like 560 health to match the m10, retaining 200 damage) were unacceptable unless they accomplished that goal.



Just like heavy tank destroyers deal with now too.

Mind you Jacksons still have HEAT rounds for extra damage when they need it.

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHH yeah right you are doing something HORRIBLY wrong if 2 jacksons can charge your panther and ele and wreck it. Thats also assuming there is not other forms of AT what so ever even snares that will turn that around quicker than shit. Jacksons still bounce the front of Ele and panthers a lot. And how much health the ele has alone NO WAY THIS CAN HAPPEN. Fuck assuming every shot the both jacksons fire hits and pens it still takes like 6-7 shots before its destroyed.

ANY PLAYER WILL DEFEND AND ELE with every form of at they have.

The Jackson probably does need a nerf in a stat or two but it isn't dangerously OP.

The Jackson probably does need a nerf in a stat or two but it isn't dangerously OP.

It's doing it's job for once. It doesn't have high damage while having a fairly high price. It's still a 640hp tank with 160dmg.

Snip

You realize I was talking about an iteration of the Jackson during DBP and not the old version or the live version right?

snip

Mind that FF does 200 (240 with vet) and Jackson does 160 (200 with AP) which makes them different when dealing with diverse HP pool.
Also what Jae states. Burst > sustain damage. You aim, shoot and then reload. Also Tulips is a far greater potential threat which deserves the slight higher cost of the unit.

If something needs to be done, i'll go first for cost (i don't think it's too far from it like a bit mp and +5 fuel) or mobility.

Mind that FF does 200 (240 with vet) and Jackson does 160 (200 with AP) which makes them different when dealing with diverse HP pool.
Also what Jae states. Burst > sustain damage. You aim, shoot and then reload. Also Tulips is a far greater potential threat which deserves the slight higher cost of the unit.

If something needs to be done, i'll go first for cost (i don't think it's too far from it like a bit mp and +5 fuel) or mobility.

FF has ridiculously high accuracy and even more ridiculously high mid range (45 longer the Elephant at 35!). When vetted it can hit a kubel (smaller target size vehicle) with around 100% at range 60.

It has sight radius of 45 from vet 0 and 2 very good abilities with hammer "warspeed" and "hammer trucking".

The unit need to looked at.

Actually the all this "heavy" TDs need to have their chance to hit medium tanks lowered since they can already penetrate them reliably.

Medium Tds on the other hand like the SU-76 should have their far penetration lowered since the can penetrate a tiger quite reliably.

The SU-85 in addition need a much higher Pop cost and probably a higher cost.

again the q: where is the weakness?

no turrent is a huge weakness..or slow turning, and low accu while turning is a big weakness...

where is the answer?

Like it was said earlier: They lack AI. They are vulnerable to panzerschrecks and the like. They're also unable to decrew AT guns as a result of this.

Also their cost can arguably be their weakness: they're pretty expensive for their performance (compared to M10s for instance).

Stugs are generally a good counter to jacksons. They dont quite have 60 range, but are close and quick on the move. The vet on stugs is relatively crazy too. Especially at vet 3.

hey i know they got nerfed but that's no reason to forget elefant and jagdtiger

I forgot to add Non Doc TD T_T

Smoke and flank the jakson?
The memes

You can use he shells with the jagpanzer or use a jagtiger with okw.
Ostheer can use command tanks, panzer tactician, spotting scopes or elephants to aid them.

Not sure if you are making a premises for your argument or just giving me how you go about it. Even still, If this is an issue of being able to screen the Jackson it received a range nerf to compensate for its increased health this patch and should get out ranged by units like the jagpznr (if you spot for it) or the reketen at vet2. Pak 40 should have no problem just have to see it and if thats the issue utilize the Pio increased Line of sight.

It got a sight nerf, is still has 60 range and outranges all other tanks and non doctrinal tank destroyers. The Jackson will beat the jp4 quite reliably when properly micro'ed. As for the screening, you can't prevent every at gun from getting to it, but you can surely prevent 90% of the cloaked rakettens from getting to the jackson. The Jackson is best played when you hold it back and move it in when opportunity strikes behind your infantry pushes. The most effective Jackson use I have faced was in 2v2 and the guy used a paratrooper m1919 blob supported by 2 jacksons that moved behind it. Nothing could touch them and this was pre health buff.

I don't consider it op. It is in a good spot now. I agree with Tightrope.

1) Press Start COH2 button.
2) Press custom game with cheat mod
3) chose jackson and p4 rush to Jackson
4) Make some 4-5 tests in cheat mode
5) return here to discuss

until u post videos where Jackson wins 1 vs 1 vs Jp4, Stug, P4s, Panther . 5 time in a row with Fog of War - there is nothing to discuss.

You're even more biased and ridiculous than ulumulu dude. Rush in against a stationary Jackson? Using such an inaccurate and dishonest example puts you even worse than ulumulu. The whole idea of the Jackson is that it's hard to catch a Jackson cos he's faster, and you can't outrange him cos he's 60 range. Designing a test which removes all of the Jackson's strengths is completely dishonest.

Using your ridiculous logic:
1) Create custom game
2) Choose Volksgrenadiers and rush to Soviet sniper
3) See who wins
4) Conclusion: Sniper sux, Volks OP

A T70 can kill a Jagtiger if you rush it in and circle strafe it. That doesn't prove shite, does it? In fact, I've lost a Stug to a Stuart and I've used an AEC to kill a jp4. Still doesn't prove shite. You don't make stationary, fish-tank battles between units with radically different combat roles because the chances of them happening in-game are extremely slim.


Fyi I don't even think/agree that the Jackson is OP. Probably a bit too good, but not to the point of serious imbalance. At first I thought ulumulu was the most biased and ridiculous guy around, but you just sniped number 1 spot from him.

Not sure if you are making a premises for your argument or just giving me how you go about it. Even still, If this is an issue of being able to screen the Jackson it received a range nerf to compensate for its increased health this patch and should get out ranged by units like the jagpznr (if you spot for it) or the reketen at vet2. Pak 40 should have no problem just have to see it and if thats the issue utilize the Pio increased Line of sight.

Do you even read the patchnotes? There is no range nerf.

Jacksons have 60 range, on top of 40 sight, superior mobility and a turret.

With a little riflesupport, there is nothing that can touch the jackson (yolo in and out of range if you somehow can't deal with pak walls as usf). People who suggest rushing a pa4 into jackson range are out of this world.

The only TD that might be stronger is a firefly under command vehicle buff and that is brit cheese at it's finest.

The original intention was that the Jackson get the health buff and retain the damage.

The result was incredibly powerful. Like, they could defeat panthers. You could drive 2 jacksons directly at a position covered by an elefant and a panther and win with overwhelming consistency. Only if the jacksons got hung up on each other and started pivoting would they be in danger.



They wanted jacksons (and all standard mediums) two survive 2 shots from elefants or JTs. Consequences of that change werent really explored, much less tested, and alternatives (Like 560 health to match the m10, retaining 200 damage) were unacceptable unless they accomplished that goal.



Just like heavy tank destroyers deal with now too.

Mind you Jacksons still have HEAT rounds for extra damage when they need it.

This all makes some sense, though I thought the HEAT rounds also only deal 160, it just ups the penetration values (like a carbon copy of the AT gun for USF ).

If I remember correctly.

- Reload speed
- Longer aim-time (due to wind up)
- Price
- (and a tiny bit amount of less armor/larger target size)

Jackson and Firefly prolly still need a range decrease to 55, and TDs in general need a popcap increase so that it's not Infantry spam & TD spam. Now that Heavies and Panthers have higher popcap, TDs can also afford to have higher popcap.

- Reload speed
- Longer aim-time (due to wind up)
- Price
- (and a tiny bit amount of less armor/larger target size)

Jackson and Firefly prolly still need a range decrease to 55, and TDs in general need a popcap increase so that it's not Infantry spam & TD spam. Now that Heavies and Panthers have higher popcap, TDs can also afford to have higher popcap.

Reload
FF: 8.25s
OKW PV: 7.5s (wind)
OH PV: 6.65 (wind)
Jackson: 6.55 (wind)
Su85: 5.65
JPIV: 5
Su76: 4.275 (wind)
Stug: 4.25

Average to low

ready time/Aim time
OKW PV: 0.125s (wind)
OH PV: 0.125 (wind)
Jackson: 0.125 (wind)
Su76: 0.125 (wind)
(corrected)
(did not check numbers myself, borrowed them from elchino7, thanks providing man)

Average

Costs:
OKW Panther 490/185
Wer Panther 490/175
FF 440/155
M36 400/140
JP 400/135 (which is more like medium TD, due to low penetration)
Su-85 350/130

For a heavy TD (as a counter to heavy vehicles) is about medium price.

Reload
FF: 8.25s
OKW PV: 7.5s (wind)
OH PV: 6.65 (wind)
Jackson: 6.55 (wind)
Su85: 5.65
JPIV: 5
Su76: 4.275 (wind)
Stug: 4.25

average to low

Aim time
OKW PV: 7.5s (wind)
OH PV: 6.65 (wind)
Jackson: 6.55 (wind)
Su76: 4.275 (wind)

average to low

Costs:
OKW Panther 490/185
Wer Panther 490/175
FF 440/155
M36 400/140
JP 400/135 (which is more like medium TD, due to low penetration)
Su-85 350/130

For a heavy TD (as a counter to heavy vehicles) is about medium price.

Your aim times are seriously off the charts. Have you ever seen any vehicle take longer than 4 seconds to aim and fire a shot?