OKW Vet balance and caches

Although one of the major reasons large teams games are considerably borked in CoH2 has to do with the available assets for map making.

CoH2 Montargis Region
https://www.coh2.org/file/14235/mr2.jpg

CoH1 Montargis Region
http://cohonlinegame.ru/images/content/maps/montargis_region.jpg

Look at the number of territory points. Look at how resources are distributed.

The CoH2 is in annihilation mode too, so the VPs are resource points on that one, and it doesn't show cutoff sectors. But the point is the lack of territory/resource point options completely restricts layouts in a way that really don't extend beyond a 2v2. And even that's stretching it. Even 1v1 maps are extremely limited in their potential designs.

All of this has completely prior to any faction or game match.

Cache costing more with each player beyond 2 was in community mod patch.
People freaked out. I like it though.
It delays tanks and makes infantry play last longer. More interesting.

This is pretty much BS, actual scarvenge is a joke, 5 fuel such a powercreep LUL.

TBH, it's not about the resources but about denying the weapons.

I voted for no, because i don't think it's necessary for balance and right now there's no time to test it.

What i would rather have (this is from when OKW was reworked) is having the resource conversion on the mechanised truck, but exchanging mp for fuel or munition (instead of swapping each other as it was originally).
Thinking a bit about it this is what i'll like:

-T3 for OKW is split in 2. Gun upgrade and PIV/PV are locked behind 2/3 of the current price of the tech. Obers n JPIV can arrive earlier.

-After 2 trucks have been deployed, mech HQ has access to resource conversion, maybe after getting engineers as a package. You can get T1 + T2 and accelerate your way into T3. I put the 2 truck deployed rule, in order to avoid just rushing mediums with T2 deployed.

-25/30mp per min for either: 4f or 8mu. Cost is been thought with more or less a 10min return comparison with a normal cache and the risks involved with it (cost/return, initial inversion + opportunity cost of engineers).

This way you still have "pseudo" caches for 1v1 and it doesn't affect the economy of teamgames as it would be like Opel blitz, which only affects the one using it.

TBH, it's not about the resources but about denying the weapons.

I voted for no, because i don't think it's necessary for balance and right now there's no time to test it.

What i would rather have (this is from when OKW was reworked) is having the resource conversion on the mechanised truck, but exchanging mp for fuel or munition (instead of swapping each other as it was originally).
Thinking a bit about it this is what i'll like:

-T3 for OKW is split in 2. Gun upgrade and PIV/PV are locked behind 2/3 of the current price of the tech. Obers n JPIV can arrive earlier.

-After 2 trucks have been deployed, mech HQ has access to resource conversion, maybe after getting engineers as a package. You can get T1 + T2 and accelerate your way into T3. I put the 2 truck deployed rule, in order to avoid just rushing mediums with T2 deployed.

-25/30mp per min for either: 4f or 8mu. Cost is been thought with more or less a 10min return comparison with a normal cache and the risks involved with it (cost/return, initial inversion + opportunity cost of engineers).

This way you still have "pseudo" caches for 1v1 and it doesn't affect the economy of teamgames as it would be like Opel blitz, which only affects the one using it.

Anything can deny team weapons, from stealing to shooting at, and both are still favoured because of your squad getting high RA and clumping while making dinstict sounds that can draw a decent opponent artillery fire.

It actually IS necessary, for the same reason okw is not "elite" anymore, they should have bothered testing it. Standardization goes both ways, they cant cherrypick the (again) vet nerf without touching the penalty given for such vet.
You could argue that it wasn't necessary since okw had a better veterancy as asset...

Regarding your option:
1) it doesn't secure any territory, namely cut off, if it is done at pre nerf cost with 200 mp it could be ok, but it shouldn't be locked in mech, other factions can build it at any moment and always regardless of teching.
2) teammates should benefit it Like all allies benefit each other caches.

Invissed two posts for trolling.

orr they did like fbp and reduced all caches resources the higher the player are ( it was like +2 in 4 vs 4 , +3 3vs3 ,+4 2vs2 and normal in 1vs 1)

I have came from the Underworld only to defy and invalidate your signature.

Also to say this(that's directed at op):

OKW strength curve got flattened(no longer vet advantage), but they don't get nor should get caches.
Ost strength curve got flattened(no longer armor advantage in late game), but they don't get nor should durable infantry.
Sov strength curve got flattened(no longer penal/maxim only spam), but they don't get nor should basic infantry capable of non doctrinal late game scaline(as little sense as it makes, but whatever).
Same happened to USF and UKF.

Point is, just because you don't have any particular toy better then your opponent, is NOT a justification to why you should have your opponents toys or more toys then them.

Back to the Underworld!

I have came from the Underworld only to defy and invalidate your signature.

I have came from the Underworld only to defy and invalidate your signature.

Also to say this(that's directed at op):

OKW strength curve got flattened(no longer vet advantage), but they don't get nor should get caches.
Ost strength curve got flattened(no longer armor advantage in late game), but they don't get nor should durable infantry.
Sov strength curve got flattened(no longer penal/maxim only spam), but they don't get nor should basic infantry capable of non doctrinal late game scaline(as little sense as it makes, but whatever).
Same happened to USF and UKF.

Point is, just because you don't have any particular toy better then your opponent, is NOT a justification to why you should have your opponents toys or more toys then them.

Back to the Underworld!

the commrade is back
edit:wait a sec you have less post than in the photo(9630),are you another pretender to the throne ?

I have came from the Underworld only to defy and invalidate your signature.

Also to say this(that's directed at op):

OKW strength curve got flattened(no longer vet advantage), but they don't get nor should get caches.
Ost strength curve got flattened(no longer armor advantage in late game), but they don't get nor should durable infantry.
Sov strength curve got flattened(no longer penal/maxim only spam), but they don't get nor should basic infantry capable of non doctrinal late game scaline(as little sense as it makes, but whatever).
Same happened to USF and UKF.

Point is, just because you don't have any particular toy better then your opponent, is NOT a justification to why you should have your opponents toys or more toys then them.

Back to the Underworld!

Sure..

if you want to have cashes asokw, you have to remove vet5 system on okw. although it shouldve removed when they removed their resources penalty. you dhould know okw concept is a few elite units faction. altough it is bs nowadays.

Look. If we give OKW caches, you have to return something in order to compensate.

In the past, we had something like exchanging fuel for ammo and vice versa. I didn't play the game at the time, but it got removed at one point(idk for what reason). OKW also had penalties for its regular fuel income(idk either, i wasn't there).

What OKW does have though(and should never be removed imo) is 5 levels of veterancy. Many people state that vet5 for OKW is similair to vet3 for the other factions, but this is not entirely true as they enjoy more diverse bonusses for mainline infantry, like healing outside of combat(something the allied factions have locked behind doctrines, like para's, Commando's and i think rangers aswell).

It also enjoys a rather generous early game from what i can see. They start with

- an amazing CQB unit that can repair stuff, drop medical supplies, and throw stun grenades for reasonably easy wipes when used right,

- a fast and well- armed jeep that can capture territory and can be repaired for free(though it is quite a b!tch to vet up) which makes it amazing to bleed opponents,

- a T0 AT rocket launcher that can garrison buildings, retreat when needed, nondoctrinal cloaking for ambushes and recon, and has great pen and veterancy to top it off,

- A mainline infantry that is rather weak in the beginning, but when vetted can prove to provide an amazing meatshield role and damage disher. it also has a cover/garrison- denying grenade to tip the odds in their favor, aswell as a excellent snare for vehicles and tanks.

With all this in mind, OKW might snowball very fast when it has access to caches without reducing the potency of its early- game. Seeing a luchs(or puma) even earlier is not a great thing for the allies that often struggle against OKW in the early game.

So, caches gives +3 fuel per minute and costs 250mp, while scavenge gives +5 for EVERY thing you melt. So if you melt 3~4 things in a game you will have much better returns than a single cache (melting costs nothing and is very fast).

Look. If we give OKW caches, you have to return something in order to compensate.

Like nerfing their vet 4+5

What OKW does have though(and should never be removed imo) is 5 levels of veterancy. Many people state that vet5 for OKW is similair to vet3 for the other factions, but this is not entirely true as they enjoy more diverse bonusses for mainline infantry, like healing outside of combat(something the allied factions have locked behind doctrines, like para's, Commando's and i think rangers aswell).

Healing outside of combat is nice, but having terminator received accuracy bonuses and not getting as damaged in the 1st place is better.

- an amazing CQB unit that can repair stuff, drop medical supplies, and throw stun grenades for reasonably easy wipes when used right,

That will probably wont make it until vet 3, and if it does its too buzzy sweeping/planting mines and repairing trucks.

- a fast and well- armed jeep that can capture territory and can be repaired for free(though it is quite a b!tch to vet up) which makes it amazing to bleed opponents,

Im pretty sure it has less DPS, armour, and speed than any other comparable early game vehicle.

- a T0 AT rocket launcher that can garrison buildings, retreat when needed, nondoctrinal cloaking for ambushes and recon, and has great pen and veterancy to top it off,

Building garrison is useless and retreat just makes it easier for enemies to steal it. IMHO the only reason it has stealth because its impossible to use a 50 range AT gun, other AT guns firing from 60 range and out of LoS are good as cloaked.

- A mainline infantry that is rather weak in the beginning, but when vetted can prove to provide an amazing meatshield role and damage disher. it also has a cover/garrison- denying grenade to tip the odds in their favor, aswell as a excellent snare for vehicles and tanks.

It had, and still has, the lowest amount of received accuracy bonuses out of all the other mainline infantry. Apart from its great damage disher at close range with STGs, it somehow has to cross 35 range of good allied long range infantry with substandard received accuracy bonuses.

If OKW is going to have the ability to get caches then the pricing of all of their units needs to be adjusted and gated differently.

The entire faction was built around the elite ideal, which has gotten out of hand when vet5 volks feel near impossible to kill. The returns for vet5 on them became far too great, and it's always been known that if you want to beat out the OKW you have to be very aggressive because as the game goes on the germans start getting all of their fancy armor which the allies really didn't have anything comparable.

Obviously varies in game modes, I primarily play 2's with a friend (2000hrs roughly) but we've seen a significant shift in the games lifespan. We love asymmetrical balance, it's what makes Coh2 stand out against the other ww2 RTS games. But adding in caches.. no that'd ruin it.

Take the Panther, the OKW Panther is actually a lot better than the Ost, the patch just changed it. I'm not aware if its now the on par or what but for ages the OKW Panther was better at everything.. and a non-doctrinal heavy tank is nothing to forget. Back when they changed the King Tigers range to be able to fire back at tank destroyers was a huge game changer. Jagpanthers and King Tigers combined made it a nightmare, stealthed AT guns (and at the same panzershreck Volks).

Let's not forget that the vet5 volks also can deal with almost any situation, incendiary grenades, fausts, and a weapon upgrade. Don't forget that the stealthed AT gun just got buffed to no longer receive suppression (like all AT guns) but still gets to retreat (which no AT gun can) and still gets stealth, and ambush bonuses.

We're getting back to the days where as allies, I just steal every german weapon I can to gain an advantage rather than relying on my own arsenal....

Except the .50 cal.. my god.. the glory days.

If OKW is going to have the ability to get caches then the pricing of all of their units needs to be adjusted and gated differently.

The entire faction was built around the elite ideal, which has gotten out of hand when vet5 volks feel near impossible to kill. The returns for vet5 on them became far too great, and it's always been known that if you want to beat out the OKW you have to be very aggressive because as the game goes on the germans start getting all of their fancy armor which the allies really didn't have anything comparable.

Obviously varies in game modes, I primarily play 2's with a friend (2000hrs roughly) but we've seen a significant shift in the games lifespan. We love asymmetrical balance, it's what makes Coh2 stand out against the other ww2 RTS games. But adding in caches.. no that'd ruin it.

Take the Panther, the OKW Panther is actually a lot better than the Ost, the patch just changed it. I'm not aware if its now the on par or what but for ages the OKW Panther was better at everything.. and a non-doctrinal heavy tank is nothing to forget. Back when they changed the King Tigers range to be able to fire back at tank destroyers was a huge game changer. Jagpanthers and King Tigers combined made it a nightmare, stealthed AT guns (and at the same panzershreck Volks).

Let's not forget that the vet5 volks also can deal with almost any situation, incendiary grenades, fausts, and a weapon upgrade. Don't forget that the stealthed AT gun just got buffed to no longer receive suppression (like all AT guns) but still gets to retreat (which no AT gun can) and still gets stealth, and ambush bonuses.

We're getting back to the days where as allies, I just steal every german weapon I can to gain an advantage rather than relying on my own arsenal....

Except the .50 cal.. my god.. the glory days.

take 2 second to confront vet bonus of volks and rifle and tell me who have the better vet and who has it sonner , right now the vet 4 and 5 are just aestetic as they are nerfed to vet 3 lvl but diluited in 5

''Like nerfing their vet 4 and 5''

Which still isn't enough all things considered.


''Healing outside of combat is nice, but having terminator received accuracy bonuses and not getting as damaged in the 1st place is better.''

Which can be largely solved by putting them in green cover all the time to negate these downsides. You get sandbags for a reason.


''That will probably wont make it until vet 3, and if it does its too buzzy sweeping/planting mines and repairing trucks.''

All engineer units are hard to vet up, especially the Sturmpioneers due them having way too many tasks right now. That is another story(worth its own thread/discussion), but my initial points still stands.


''Im pretty sure it has less DPS, armour, and speed than any other comparable early game vehicle.''

Which is completely fine considering that the kubel costs no fuel, comes in right from the start and can capture territory without requiring an infantry squad inside the vehicle.


''Building garrison is useless and retreat just makes it easier for enemies to steal it''

Well this is just downright misinformation. Or a player issue. Or both!

''IMHO the only reason it has stealth because its impossible to use a 50 range AT gun, other AT guns firing from 60 range and out of LoS are good as cloaked.''

The key difference is that the Racketen is much better at ambushes than all the other AT guns. With that said, it is a bit lackluster without the ambush aspect. Maybe they should add a doctrinal PAK40 in one of the doctrines, but i dont know where.


''It had, and still has, the lowest amount of received accuracy bonuses out of all the other mainline infantry. Apart from its great damage disher at close range with STGs, it somehow has to cross 35 range of good allied long range infantry with substandard received accuracy bonuses.''

Which isn't a huge issue as you can get more volks on the field compared to most allied infantry(excluding penals and cons, penals are still ridiculous and cons lose 8/10 times to volks) as you pay 250mp for them.

Oh, and most allied infantry isn't very great at long range; that's a lie. Only units like guards, penals, pathfinders, para's with M1919's, and Infantry sections are good at long range. most of these listed aren't even that great at long range and must close in to medium range, which is precisely where STG 44's shine.

''Like nerfing their vet 4 and 5''

Which still isn't enough all things considered.


''Healing outside of combat is nice, but having terminator received accuracy bonuses and not getting as damaged in the 1st place is better.''

Which can be largely solved by putting them in green cover all the time to negate these downsides. You get sandbags for a reason.


''That will probably wont make it until vet 3, and if it does its too buzzy sweeping/planting mines and repairing trucks.''

All engineer units are hard to vet up, especially the Sturmpioneers due them having way too many tasks right now. That is another story(worth its own thread/discussion), but my initial points still stands.


''Im pretty sure it has less DPS, armour, and speed than any other comparable early game vehicle.''

Which is completely fine considering that the kubel costs no fuel, comes in right from the start and can capture territory without requiring an infantry squad inside the vehicle.


''Building garrison is useless and retreat just makes it easier for enemies to steal it''

Well this is just downright misinformation. Or a player issue. Or both!

''IMHO the only reason it has stealth because its impossible to use a 50 range AT gun, other AT guns firing from 60 range and out of LoS are good as cloaked.''

The key difference is that the Racketen is much better at ambushes than all the other AT guns. With that said, it is a bit lackluster without the ambush aspect. Maybe they should add a doctrinal PAK40 in one of the doctrines, but i dont know where.


''It had, and still has, the lowest amount of received accuracy bonuses out of all the other mainline infantry. Apart from its great damage disher at close range with STGs, it somehow has to cross 35 range of good allied long range infantry with substandard received accuracy bonuses.''

Which isn't a huge issue as you can get more volks on the field compared to most allied infantry(excluding penals and cons, penals are still ridiculous and cons lose 8/10 times to volks) as you pay 250mp for them.

Oh, and most allied infantry isn't very great at long range; that's a lie. Only units like guards, penals, pathfinders, para's with M1919's, and Infantry sections are good at long range. most of these listed aren't even that great at long range and must close in to medium range, which is precisely where STG 44's shine.

dude 2 stg =1 bar whta re you saying agin ?

My two cents (obviously as a mainly allies player) is that as soon as kt is doctrinal, okw should get caches, since that's the only other "only" that okw has right now.

People always talk about the reduced income for OKW, but they also forget about what was kind of the heart and soul of the OKW design: resource conversion.

Vet 5 has always been silly.