Volksgrenadiers [DBP]

Due to WFA tech structure, Volks & upgrades have to hold out against each of the following potential threats (both individually and as a combination of said threats):
- Penals, with de-facto mid-long-range good performance
- Tommies, with de-facto long-range performance
- Tommies & Brens
- Riflemen
- Riflemen & Bars
- Riflemen & LMG
- Conscripts
- Conscripts & PPSh

So, IMO, the only two upgrades that would work for that would be either:
- An LMG42 upgrade; in that case we also give OKW access to T0 weapons and effectively remove them from the game, because now they've become Ostheer
- The weird STG weapon curve they have which gives them certain ranges to perform vs the forementioned units for each matchup

I can't think of any curve that will work vs each of the forementioned threats, and I can't think of any combination of upgrades that would help Volks to fight.

If you think that forcing Volks to pick mp40 alone will solve anything, feel free to give it a whirl in DBP trying the firestorm doctrine. You can maybe use up to 1 squad of Volks max tactically, but upgrading all of your squads with mp40, or letting the rest of the squads unupgraded is suicide.

Sure, we could tweak the curves a bit if necessary, e.g., cost, to prevent snowballing, and fire-on-the-move performance to prevent blob-ability. However, volks need to have a role in the late-game which is ideally complementary to Obersoldaten, without turning OKW into Ostheer v2.0.

What if Volks became a long range/close range squad with anemic damage at medium range?

Laser accurate but low damage Kar98Ks, and a single model with a buffed SMG to represent a squad leader. They trade very evenly in long range fights (except against UKF) and trade well in close range fights, but lose hard in medium range fights against Penals and Rifles because of hypothetically tweaked Kar98Ks with reduced damage. You could then choose between x4 MP44s which turn them into more of a CQC squad, or a single LMG34 upgrade. There is defintely overlap with Sturmpios if this ever happened, but then Sturmpios could have a more defined role as AT/support infantry.

Agree with the schrecks part.

The point is, for me, that Volks getting a full cqc upgrade instead isn't necessarily about their performance trying to outgun allied infantry squads. It is about giving OKW the potential for better unit synergy.

Sure, but first and foremost okw needs a cheap recrewer, because kategame stums and obers needs nothing more to complement, and we aren't considering call in infantry.

The bolt action only version of live volks is a fix to all issues and is now possible with buffed mg34 and flak ht.

What's the issue with the StG? Its an upgrade that bolsters all around DPS more prominent the closer you get to the squad. Is the BAR any different? Are brens any different? MG42s? I don't see an issue with the StG. I see an issue with the sudden powerspike of 3 StGs coming online once 1st truck is done. Wanna change the powerspike? Lock it behind a timer but without truck requirement. Maybe give it a small fuel cost on base just to slow it down a bit.

I think the biggest factors making Volks "too strong" were the incindiary nade being impossible to dodge all the damage, and denying Cover. You can't use cover AND you take 1/4 to 1/2 your squad HP instantly, very easy to turn a close engagement.

Since this has been adjusted I'm reserving a snap judgement since volks will now be fighting "full HP" squads if their cover is mitigated and micro is performed.

Sure, but first and foremost okw needs a cheap recrewer, because kategame stums and obers needs nothing more to complement, and we aren't considering call in infantry.

Well a proper change should consider the whole picture, callins included.

And obers do actually require a bit of a compliment, much like sturms, in that they need acreening, cheaper units or they lose their cost effectiveness.

But volks do fill the role of a cheap recrewer.

The bolt action only version of live volks is a fix to all issues and is now possible with buffed mg34 and flak ht.

This is more or less the crux of it. Volks, with only their bolt action rifles, fit the role they need to for the OKW faction.

Their STG upgrade currently simply improves their all round effectiveness/mitigates their weaknesses. A full smg package would have situational utility, synergy with okw callins, and support the faction by filling a role that is actually largely unviable for okw.

But more than anything, full smgs instead wuld mean OKW players would/could leave volks unupgraded, which is where they are actually a balanced unit for the faction.

But like the above poster said, incendiary nades are a big factor. Normal nades for volks I think should be the case, with theincendiary being only doctrinal, or with the smg upgrade, or with vet.

Well a proper change should consider the whole picture, callins included.

And obers do actually require a bit of a compliment, much like sturms, in that they need acreening, cheaper units or they lose their cost effectiveness.

But volks do fill the role of a cheap recrewer.



This is more or less the crux of it. Volks, with only their bolt action rifles, fit the role they need to for the OKW faction.

Their STG upgrade currently simply improves their all round effectiveness/mitigates their weaknesses. A full smg package would have situational utility, synergy with okw callins, and support the faction by filling a role that is actually largely unviable for okw.

But more than anything, full smgs instead wuld mean OKW players would/could leave volks unupgraded, which is where they are actually a balanced unit for the faction.

But like the above poster said, incendiary nades are a big factor. Normal nades for volks I think should be the case, with theincendiary being only doctrinal, or with the smg upgrade, or with vet.

STG in current form overlaps with BARs as well, same price and is a general DPS increase. OKW needs to be different than USF.

Well a proper change should consider the whole picture, callins included.

And obers do actually require a bit of a compliment, much like sturms, in that they need acreening, cheaper units or they lose their cost effectiveness.

But volks do fill the role of a cheap recrewer.



This is more or less the crux of it. Volks, with only their bolt action rifles, fit the role they need to for the OKW faction.

Their STG upgrade currently simply improves their all round effectiveness/mitigates their weaknesses. A full smg package would have situational utility, synergy with okw callins, and support the faction by filling a role that is actually largely unviable for okw.

But more than anything, full smgs instead wuld mean OKW players would/could leave volks unupgraded, which is where they are actually a balanced unit for the faction.

But like the above poster said, incendiary nades are a big factor. Normal nades for volks I think should be the case, with theincendiary being only doctrinal, or with the smg upgrade, or with vet.

Volks aren't cheap, they are 25 mp per model, used in lategame can put you enormous bleed, they are hardly worth such cost and a muni upgrade for such performance throughout the whole match.




No

1) flame grenade is needed as anti garrison
2) flame grenade is needed as anti garrison
3) flame grenade is needed as anti garrison
....
....
....

999999999999999) flame grenade is needed as anti garrison
....

The day okw will start with tier 0 grenatenwerfer/flame car/flamethrower they will lose flame grenade

Ps: let's put an end to this feuersturm needs more flame-let's link any antigarrison to feuersturm, we want decent doctrines, not thematic useless crap like NKWD and Overwatch.

The day okw will start with tier 0 grenatenwerfer/flame car/flamethrower they will lose flame grenade

The day okw will start with tier 0 AT gun, they will lose the panzerfaust. Oh wait...

Seriously, though:
1. Give volks mp40 upgrade instead of stg.
2. Move their nades and pfausts to separate T0 upgrades soviet style, no other restrictions.
3. Swap searchlight and obers in tech.

That way okw can either go for buffing their base infantry with upgrades or rushing one of two powerful units - obers and luchs. This gives 3 interesting build paths. If okw needs to supplement their choice they can always build AT and basic infantry at base, go for upgrade or side tech. If they need firepower at range - they build LeIG or obers. If they need firepower up close, they upgrade volks, if they want to pick up weapons and team weapons they don't upgrade but go for them with base volks.

IMO that makes it as easy to understand and fun as either soviets or ostheer design.

One could say that obers that early are too early but I don't think that will be the case. They will not be supplemented by huge volkblob buffed with all the abilities and by luchs or other armour so there is always a possibility to counter with light vehicle play. And having more than one viable build path is worth the risk.

Do mind that there might be some small fuel cost increase to med truck needed in order to avoid obers coming too early. Or increased muni cost for their mg upgrade so that they have to fight with kars only if you make too many of them.

The day okw will start with tier 0 AT gun, they will lose the panzerfaust. Oh wait...

Shitwerfer destroyed all the ground already, we don't need panzerfaust to make more craters kappa

The critical fallacy here is the assumption that infantry squads are only used to fight other infantry squads.

Volks with a full smg package can be used to clear team weapons, most prominently atgs and mgs. It's a tactical use that isn't just slugging manpower at manpower.

An smg squad also defends team weapons like isgs, raketens, and mgs from being overrun better than a rifled counterpart.

Team weapon management and support is a huge part of volks, or at least IMO they should be.

That kind of usage doesn't show up when calculating spreadsheets.

So that they can protect a low aoe isg? Or an mg34 that is still weaker than all other HMGs in the game? OKW support weapons did get buffed (quite substantially, really), but their support weapons are still weaker and perform worse in their intended roles than those of other factions. If you want some kind of interaction where volks protect team weapons, then those team weapons have to be worth protecting. So then, say, you buff okw support weapons. You now have a faction that has somewhat weak core infantry, with strong support weapons. That is what ostheer is already.

So that they can protect a low aoe isg? Or an mg34 that is still weaker than all other HMGs in the game? OKW support weapons did get buffed (quite substantially, really), but their support weapons are still weaker and perform worse in their intended roles than those of other factions. If you want some kind of interaction where volks protect team weapons, then those team weapons have to be worth protecting. So then, say, you buff okw support weapons. You now have a faction that has somewhat weak core infantry, with strong support weapons. That is what ostheer is already.

I guess one could replace 'team weapon' with 'any defensive position', or a VP cap circle, for instance. Or an ostheer teammate.

I'm not suggesting OKW's team weapons be buffed, but I do think OKW's team weapons are worth protecting, not to mention building in the first place.

1) flame grenade is needed as anti garrison
2) flame grenade is needed as anti garrison
3) flame grenade is needed as anti garrison
....
....
....

99999 99999 99999) flame grenade is needed as anti garrison

A quadrillion reasons, all of them flame nades. That, right there, is the problem. It's too much of a crutch. So I agree though, something else has got to give. Which is also why I don't necessarily feel removing it or making it doctrinal is necessarily the best of the ideas I opined.

What if Volks became a long range/close range squad with anemic damage at medium range?

Laser accurate but low damage Kar98Ks, and a single model with a buffed SMG to represent a squad leader. They trade very evenly in long range fights (except against UKF) and trade well in close range fights, but lose hard in medium range fights against Penals and Rifles because of hypothetically tweaked Kar98Ks with reduced damage. You could then choose between x4 MP44s which turn them into more of a CQC squad, or a single LMG34 upgrade. There is defintely overlap with Sturmpios if this ever happened, but then Sturmpios could have a more defined role as AT/support infantry.

can someone comment on this? I think its a really unique concept that could be applied to other infantry squads.

(Gren squad leader model with G43, soviet leader with PPSH-41, Rifle leader with carbine.)

I guess one could replace 'team weapon' with 'any defensive position', or a VP cap circle, for instance. Or an ostheer teammate.

I'm not suggesting OKW's team weapons be buffed, but I do think OKW's team weapons are worth protecting, not to mention building in the first place.

What kind of defensive position do you mean?

As for protecting a vp cap circle, thats not how it works. Close range weapons work in a few cases: ambushes (like around sight blockers), offensively (when pushing another squad/running up to close range), defensively (when the enemy has to walk up close for some reason). Vp cap circles do not directly involve any of those cases. Vp cap circles do not force the enemy to walk up to you into close range and have nothing to do with ambushes. Being able to run up to another squad exists entirely independent of VP cap circles as well.

With regards to protecting an ostheer teammate's weapons, that means youre saying that the upgrade should be reliant on its interactions with teammates, and not with its interactions with the rest of its own faction. I can't say that that way of balancing is wrong, but I do think its a terrible way to balance a single upgrade when every other ability and unit in the game is balanced based on its performance in the faction, and not through its synergy with allied factions.

I know you're not suggesting okw's team weapons be buffed, and thats where im saying your argument falls apart. I'm saying that if it were to go how you suggested and they were balanced around protecting team weapons, that the team weapons theyre protecting would need a buff. Yes, OKW's team weapons are worth protecting. Yes, theyre worth building in the first place. No, theyre not strong enough to be the new focus of the faction as they are, even in dbp (which is essentially what you would be suggesting).

snip

By suggesting that volks have more of a role with supporting team weapons does not imply I'm saying that team weapons should be the new focus of the faction.

I'm saying that volks should not be the focus of the faction. You're reading too much into what I was saying about team weapons.

[(Team weapon management) and (support)] is a huge part of volks, or at least IMO they should be."

Volks without StGs is how the unit was designed in the faction. Changing their weapon upgrade to a more definitive role change, rather than a muni dump bonus would help the unit work more in conjunction with the other infantry available to OKW. All of OKW's call-in infantry and Obersoldaten really excel at long range. Falls and StG Obers can handle close range certainly, but they're not necessarily available, but the only OKW unit that's kind of a dedicated CQC unit are Sturmpioneers and they are split between many roles.

Team weapons are a side note in the equation, like they are for OKW as a whole anyway. I don't expect much debate on making them the focus of the faction by any means to be fruitful.

What if Volks became a long range/close range squad with anemic damage at medium range?

Laser accurate but low damage Kar98Ks, and a single model with a buffed SMG to represent a squad leader. They trade very evenly in long range fights (except against UKF) and trade well in close range fights, but lose hard in medium range fights against Penals and Rifles because of hypothetically tweaked Kar98Ks with reduced damage. You could then choose between x4 MP44s which turn them into more of a CQC squad, or a single LMG34 upgrade. There is defintely overlap with Sturmpios if this ever happened, but then Sturmpios could have a more defined role as AT/support infantry.

Was going to suggest something very similar. Since volks need to face such a wide range of enemies, why not give them a wide selection of exclusive upgrades? 4x MP44s would take up all their weapon slots and make them great at close range, but awful at long range (maybe also add a slight armor or received accuracy buff to help them get close enough?). An MG42 upgrade (and maybe something similar to the Tommies Vet 3 'scoped' rifles) would make them amazing at long range, but again take up all their slots (1x MG and 2x scoped rifles) and make them awful at close range. Then, if medium range was needed, slightly bump the default K98 curve to allow for them to be good at medium range by default (instead of long), and keep the current STG upgrade to buff medium range if needed.

What would be interesting is tying the upgrades to trucks; MP40s from med, STG from mech, MG+Scoped Rifles from schwerer. This would add another layer to tech selection, and also prevent MG+scoped rifle rushes early in the game.

Since this has been adjusted I'm reserving a snap judgement since volks will now be fighting "full HP" squads if their cover is mitigated and micro is performed.

+1

Problem of stgs is not performance, is more about a strategical issue. Is a no brain upgrade, as soon as you have munis you do it. Back in the day, several people -including me- suggested to give x2 type of upgrades (attach to tech) to volks (one close range other long range as some suggested in this post) to give volk and okw a tactical approach. As long as is not like ever happenning, problems of volks will remain the same. They just do OKISH in all ranges and stage of the game with 0 tactical decision, which makes OKW playstyle quite boring. As Mr.Smith said the other option is buffing support units and putting them in t0 but this make OKW second Ostheer. So between this two option we are stuck right in the middle with a volks that can deal with no specific purpose everything (infantry close, mid, long and a bit of AT).

IMHO volksgrenadier as cqb unit is out of question.
You get sturmpioneers since the very first moment, and focus of the new patch was to improve their scaling in order to make it use as intended cqb unit.
I know fancy stuff is fancy, MP40 is fancy, but there's new feuersturm for that.
Falls, sturm, ir stg obers...all close range units that will gladly replace mp40 non doc volks as a much better unit...OR volks will be more cost eficient and we are back to the initial issue.

I would like people started thinking about a volks as part of a faction, and think what is the role that faction needs.

The problem of DBP stg volks is that they rely a lot on their upgrade and after all you feel like you are wasting muni and bleeding with the usage of an "inferior" infantry (meaning that is meant to not go toe to toe, yet you actually spend on it)...this is basically asking for a call in meta.

The option of simply keeping their veterancy (THAT NEVER "overperformed" without stg) and removing stg, while making volksgrenadier 10/1 mp (240/24) cheaper is a reasonable change.

OKW player can freely pick a unit relatively cheap, but has to rely on additional elite infantry.
Volks lose their op vet 3/luchs powercreep, but unlike the idea of putting a timer on upgrades (LUL), this will be a double edged sword, as okw will not need to consume munitions.
It will act as reserve unit, put some dps in cover, throw flame nades for garrisons and in late game act as weapon stealer/crewer that obers and sturmpios can't do.
Note that, as i tested it, live vet 5 stock kar volks < vet 5 stg DBP volks, even in relatively long range, and let's also include that the performance gap between close and long range will add strategical issues to overcome with micro and positioning.

To sum up, if volks won't be able to deal with 1 bar rifles with superior micro, they don't need/shouldn't need an stg upgrade...AND...if we want to boost elite usage, such nerfed mainline should bleed a bit less, even at the cost of having even more inferior performance.
If they are meant to be a stopgap and cannon fodder/filler for expensive elites, fully balance/nerf them in such direction and price them correctly.


PS: and i would definetly trade sight range/reload bonus for DBP RA, it will make the perfect resilient cannon fodder out of them, without give them an awfully nonsense scout role.

Falls, sturm, ir stg obers...all close range units that will gladly replace mp40 non doc volks as a much better unit...OR volks will be more cost eficient and we are back to the initial issue.

Just a small clarification: Falls and IR STG are not necessarily close range units, the same problem with Volks STG (live) and Bars (IMO).
AR (assault rifles) should be good at close range, great at mid and bad at long range (see PG) when trading with Bolt/LMGs. The thing is that they are way better as long range units as well.
BAR has IMO too much long range dmg for a weapon which is meant to be mid/close and used on the move.
Falls are a 4 BAR squad.
IR STG has more dmg than the best bolt action (Ober) at far. They also fulfil the weird role of anti cover/pseudo anti garrison.

On top of that, ARs (and other SMGs) have a property which should be only part of HMGs. Focus_fire = false. This mean that each bullet they miss to hit on it's target, they get an extra change to hit through scatter. Something you can't account by just looking at DPS tables.


With that out of the way, as you say, i prefer going back to Volks been cannon fodder/utility (basically OKW pre rework) with more accessible elite units (Obers, Falls, JLI) with the stopgap been Sturmpios for the early/mid game. PF would fulfil the current role of Volks (live).
STG was a clutch in order to make the transition on the rework of OKW easier. The thing is, i don't think people will let go of the current "spam" STG Volks for an Osstruppen + Elite infantry type of army composition.

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Great points. Seems like youre advocating for OKW being a strong early game, weak mid game, strong late game faction. This is what OKW was mostly like when I started playing and its a direction that I can get behind.

One thing to keep in mind is that jli arent good enough as elite infantry (if they are even considered that) and falls are in a middling doctrine that only seems to be getting worse in dbp. Obers are great, but then you disincentivise the purchase of lught vehicles or anything that requires fuel because you want your t4 up asap. This also means that OKW gets punished for going callins in a way that no other faction is. Asymmetrical balance and all, but that would probably really hurt okw if they have to tech to be competitive with their infantry whilr other factions can have competitive infantry and a bunch of call in tanks. If callins were better balanced, then I would have no issue.

With that out of the way, as you say, i prefer going back to Volks been cannon fodder/utility (basically OKW pre rework) with more accessible elite units (Obers, Falls, JLI) with the stopgap been Sturmpios for the early/mid game. PF would fulfil the current role of Volks (live).
STG was a clutch in order to make the transition on the rework of OKW easier. The thing is, i don't think people will let go of the current "spam" STG Volks for an Osstruppen + Elite infantry type of army composition.

This +1
Exactly what I am advocating, a pure bolt action utility squad that can hold his ground with correct positioning with the help of vehicles, mg34, sturmpios... until call in infantry or obers starts being on the field.

1) it needs to be cheap

2) it doesn't need to scale with stg.

A pure stock volks with actual live veterancy priced 10mp less is perfect...the middle ground between total cannon fodder and proper squad.
Doesn't make you bleed terribly but isn't as powerful as pre nerf, and require positioning.

On a side note: I'm ok if bar keeps such weapon profile, let's call it flavour and asymettrical balance, but a soft nerf to long range and close range performance could define the curve to make bar more of an AR than an smg, while not making it an smg that actually is also good at long range with no trade offs.
Jack of all trades, master of none (right now is master of close up to very long range...)

@jae for jett of course, call in cancer will force okw to use command panther again and again, or getting raped by sherman/m10 and is actually an issue that needs to be solved. Good point.