[DBP] Riflemen smoke survey

You guys need to go over to the official forums and vote on what you think about USF smoke:

https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/244543/usf-smoke-which-usf-squad-should-have-access-to-smoke-grenades

Don't worry about balance. Worry about what makes gameplay more interesting (to use AND counter).

No matter the outcome, we will find a way to adjust performance to fit balance.

I can see the problem of riflemen having smoke grenades and making mgs much less useful against the US however i don't think simply switching which squads carry them will make gameplay more or less interesting. Making rear echelons designated smoke mules doesn't seem like a very fun fix. Officers and rest echelons aren't a bad choice though.

So the USF need smoke since they don't have snipers like most other factions do. OKW may be a small exception but fortunately the isgs are getting smoke, they have good early vehicles and decent infantry.

I'm going to suggest a few more unique changes instead, some more radical,but still fun to brainstorm.

1. Recon team - weak 2 man squad with medium range rifles. Abilities include binoculars that increase LOS of a particular direction and a smoke barrage ability/bombing run.
2. HQ ability to call down a creeping smoke barrage though fog of war anywhere on your half of the map. Nearby officers increase this range beyond your half of the map.
3. Light vehicle smoke rounds ability - switch vehicle ammo to non lethal smoke rounds/grenades and increase vehicle attack range. Maybe throw the centaur vet 1 ability on there for use when switched to smoke rounds.

Now that I've typed this all out i think option 2 with a low cool down sounds more fun. Maybe allow pathfinders to increase that hq aability range as well. Not sure if this would be more fun to play against though, atleast you'd know to target specific squads if they're past that halfway point.

Another idea, put the hq ability on fighting emplacements and again allow certain infantry to increase that range when nearby.

Thanks for bringing this poll to my attention Mr. Smith, I voted for live version because I feel the patch is big enough for this rather massive change to hit live, maybe in the future the issue with Riflemen overshadowing USF Elites can be fixed in a better manner.

give smoke to officers in different form

lt: current

cap: WP shot from zook

major: cheap smoke barrage

then give REs a rifle grenade upgrade that gives passive rifle nades and FREE smoke nades

Before voting, what does mean: Riflemen with changes (15MU->25MU, no smoke vet bonuses) - not yet implemented?

Before voting, what does mean: Riflemen with changes (15MU->25MU, no smoke vet bonuses) - not yet implemented?

It probably means it will get a price increase and not effected by veterancy.

I can see the problem of riflemen having smoke grenades and making mgs much less useful against the US however i don't think simply switching which squads carry them will make gameplay more or less interesting. Making rear echelons designated smoke mules doesn't seem like a very fun fix. Officers and rest echelons aren't a bad choice though.

So the USF need smoke since they don't have snipers like most other factions do. OKW may be a small exception but fortunately the isgs are getting smoke, they have good early vehicles and decent infantry.

????? USF dont have good infantry and light vehicles?!!! WTF. Imagine your smoke was on ur pack howitzer for a second.

They are trying to make it so people stop spamming rifle builds and use rear echelons more often in conjunction with riflemen. ATM USF is the faction that uses the least combined arms why? because they don't have to when riflemen can be equipped to do everything

????? USF dont have good infantry and light vehicles?!!! WTF. Imagine your smoke was on ur pack howitzer for a second.

They are trying to make it so people stop spamming rifle builds and use rear echelons more often in conjunction with riflemen. ATM USF is the faction that uses the least combined arms why? because they don't have to when riflemen can be equipped to do everything

Lel I was like, are we talking about the faction with the only vehicle that suppress on the move ? XD

????? USF dont have good infantry and light vehicles?!!! WTF. Imagine your smoke was on ur pack howitzer for a second.

They are trying to make it so people stop spamming rifle builds and use rear echelons more often in conjunction with riflemen. ATM USF is the faction that uses the least combined arms why? because they don't have to when riflemen can be equipped to do everything

My point was okw doesn't need snipers to deal with mgs, they've got plenty of quick light vehicles, flame nades, and other tools to deal with them. A lmg ober will handle a maxim a lot better than a barred riflemen against an mg34.

Smoke on pack howitzers not a bad idea, good suggestion.

Yeah i was suggesting other ways to get smoke off of riflemen... Not sure what your point here is.

Lel I was like, are we talking about the faction with the only vehicle that suppress on the move ? XD

Actually all allied factions have a vehicle that suppresses on the move. I think vetted luchs can supress as well?

My point was okw doesn't need snipers to deal with mgs, they've got plenty of quick light vehicles, flame nades, and other tools to deal with them. A lmg ober will handle a maxim a lot better than a barred riflemen against an mg34.

Smoke on pack howitzers not a bad idea, good suggestion.

Yeah i was suggesting other ways to get smoke off of riflemen... Not sure what your point here is.



Actually all allied factions have a vehicle that suppresses on the move. I think vetted luchs can supress as well?

USF has light vehicles too and they have access to t0 mortar AND smoke on riflemen, OKW struggle WAY more vs MG's then USF.

My point was what if smokes was ONLY available on pack howitzer just like OKW....oh sht they dont even have access to smokes in live my bad.

You guys can't stop whining about your Special Snowflake Faction OKW even on this thread that is about USF smoke grenades?

I remember I really got into USF because I loved how versatile their faction was. I think smoke on rifles feels good because it allows you to pull some insane stuff with rifles if your micro is up to par. Pulling an attack from three fronts, while using smoke feels really rewarding. Makes their front line infantry feel unique in their flexibility. Smoke just has the unfortunate side effect of making life harder for Ostheer.

It might be too radical of a change at the moment since the whole faction seems designed around the fact that riflemen can do almost everything (while their other support teams do nothing, which contrast to Ostheer who grenadiers do nothing but support weapons do everything). Could raise the munitions cost of smoke, that way by spamming smoke USF is giving up access to using grenades and Bars.

If smoke is a problem for the ostheer match up, it seems more like a grenadiers not pulling their weight problem. Their job is to protect their support weapons, but once USF gets close via smoke they can't do their job at all.

Ppl are voting for rifleman live version.


lolololol

I remember I really got into USF because I loved how versatile their faction was. I think smoke on rifles feels good because it allows you to pull some insane stuff with rifles if your micro is up to par. Pulling an attack from three fronts, while using smoke feels really rewarding. Makes their front line infantry feel unique in their flexibility. Smoke just has the unfortunate side effect of making life harder for Ostheer.

It might be too radical of a change at the moment since the whole faction seems designed around the fact that riflemen can do almost everything (while their other support teams do nothing, which contrast to Ostheer who grenadiers do nothing but support weapons do everything). Could raise the munitions cost of smoke, that way by spamming smoke USF is giving up access to using grenades and Bars.

If smoke is a problem for the ostheer match up, it seems more like a grenadiers not pulling their weight problem. Their job is to protect their support weapons, but once USF gets close via smoke they can't do their job at all.

Yeah i agree with you i love how with you about ostheer having issues with the smoke. Panzergrenadiers should be an ok counter to close range/fighting in the smoke, not sure how they fare against bar riflemen. I love how much access USF have to smoke with it being on riflemen, however i can't disagree that it does make them into a s solid wiss army knife kinda role without as large a need for support weapons. I mean they have anti infantry, anti tank, and smoke upgrades. Taking smoke off of them would allow for greater Yee if doctorinal infantry as of now it's hard to pass on riflemen when you get them at the start of the game and they fulfill all roles, even if they're not extremely good at it.

USF has light vehicles too and they have access to t0 mortar AND smoke on riflemen, OKW struggle WAY more vs MG's then USF.

My point was what if smokes was ONLY available on pack howitzer just like OKW....oh sht they dont even have access to smokes in live my bad.

Yeah unfortunately axis mgs act as a soft counter to light vehicles thanks to Incendiary rounds more than allied mgs do. Yeah mgs aren't so much of an issue now with smoke on rifle men, I'm speaking to if it's removed from them. It's true they have smoke on the mortar but it's small range means it's going to be right on the front line while doing that smoke barrage. I thought i read somewhere that the smoke barrage will have increased range, i think that'd be good to implement depending on what other changes are made.

Lol yeah it's cool. They have white phosphorous smoke on the howitzer not exactly the type you want to run through.

Switching smoke to other units won't make USF openings any more interesting at all, unless one's idea of interesting is to make USF players micro even more than they already have to by juggling between the mortar and REs.

Just the proposed shared cooldown between Mk.2s and Smoke would have been enough to stop the alleged smoke spam.

As for encouraging Elite usage, that's a timing and/or specialization issue. Nerfing Rifle smoke won't change the fact that by the time 3 CP hits, you've probably already got all the AI squads (aka Riflemen) you need/can afford at the moment.

If there is choice between combined arms and anything else (in this particular case - 1 unit type army) - I pick combined arms.

????? USF dont have good infantry and light vehicles?!!!

U r Axis funboy.


USF does have good light vehicles but they r overpriced and overpopcapped. So i would recommend to any USF player avoid to use them.

You guys need to go over to the official forums and vote on what you think about USF smoke:

https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/244543/usf-smoke-which-usf-squad-should-have-access-to-smoke-grenades

Don't worry about balance. Worry about what makes gameplay more interesting (to use AND counter).

No matter the outcome, we will find a way to adjust performance to fit balance.

I can see the majority voted to keep the smoke nades on rifles. However I notice that according to the patch notes RE and USF officers get smoke.

Will riflemen keep their smoke?

I've also given some thought as to possible changes to smoke grenades for USF infantry.

Problem
Axis MG placement is not rewarded when riflemen use smoke to cover them self while suppressed

consequences
USF riflemen can walk stright into an MG's firing arc with little consequence when carrying smoke nades.
The axis player is left with a dilemma: Reposition the MG and hope it can be done before more enemies show up or stay and hope it and supporting infantry can deal with the enemy once the smoke clears.


After brainstorming possible changes I've come up with a suggestion:

Suggestion

Change the way rifle smoke works. Rather than creating a cloud in which the rifle squad can hide in
the new smoke grenades create a narrow but dense line af smoke from point A to B
A being the point from which the nade is thrown from, and B being the nades target.

in short: From cloud to curtain

This effect mean riflemen can no longer smoke them self when caught in an MG's firing arc, yet smoke can still be used to block line of sight when thrown from the right angel. This rewards the USF player for using smoke more intelligently and the axis player is rewarded for his MG placement.

ost grens can´t dealing with the rifles...it need a mg...and then the rifles rofl and trough a smoke and deniey the mg...so lol

I don't think giving RE's smoke would be a good idea. This is mostly because they'd be rather strong with flamethrowers from the rifleman doctrine, and would ultimately promote RE spam as riflemen would lack any real place in the population.

Sure, the Mortar at T0 is able to drop smoke, but that means one less rifle squad on the field which leaves the USF player at a rather nasty disadvantage. It is why i almost never buy the mortar, and rather get a pack howitzer.