WBP V1.3 Stuka

Absolutely.

However, we don't have the luxury of changing everything at the same time. This is why we need to prioritize changes.

How about prioritizing on don't fix what ain't broke (Stuka health) and ain't nobody asked to fix in the first place.

First we fix Brits, then we fix USF and. Finally, if relic still gives us the option to make a 2nd pass over OKW we continue with changing the Stuka and nerfing King Tiger.

And if you get Community approval.

If you have trouble realising why Stuka is OP (and will remain OP), you are probably misusing it. Look up on youtube about how to properly aim the stuka.

If you have trouble realizing after your first failed attempt that it ain't gonna work to shove down your own playstyle on everybody's else throat, just as it did not work the first time, the better for you. The feedback is entirely negative on this change. Look on COH forum and reviews of what happened the last time you tried to ignore that and perhaps you will find it enlightening and save you a lot of trouble of attempting it again.

You are perhaps misinterpreting the feedback, so let me translate it to you: we still ain't buying into saying one thing and using it a false pretext to do something entirely different.

In this case, claiming there is any kind of correlation between the Stuka's allaged pinpoint accuracy and its durability. There is not. All this does is making the most expensive rocket arty that works closest to the frontline crap easy to destroy for lazy Allied players. If you have trouble neutralizing the current Stuka, then perhaps look up some replays because its a play style issue.

If you actually want to fix the Stuka's wiping potential and make it follow the same rules as other rocket arty, then do so. If you can't (or won't), do not touch it because the only thing that's gonna happen is that you break it and along with it, the chances that the DBP could ever go live.

Personally, the three primary goals for the DBP is:
- Force all 5 factions to use a combination of units to achieve their goals at each stage in the game (e.g., no late-game Vet5 Volks spam > all)
- Make all factions require comparable micro input at all stages in the game, so that there's actual depth involved (i.e., getting to Vet5 should not mean that you no longer have to micro your infantry engagements)
- Adapt faction core/commanders properly, so that each faction has at least 3 strong and valid commanders to choose from, every game (i.e., no Armor Company every single game, just because you picked USF)

Trouble is, making the Stuka even more vulnerable than it already is does not serve these primarily goals in any way.

How about prioritizing on don't fix what ain't broke (Stuka health) and ain't nobody asked to fix in the first place.



And if you get Community approval.




If you have trouble realizing after your first failed attempt that it ain't gonna work to shove down your own playstyle on everybody's else throat, just as it did not work the first time, the better for you. The feedback is entirely negative on this change. Look on COH forum and reviews of what happened the last time you tried to ignore that and perhaps you will find it enlightening and save you a lot of trouble of attempting it again.

You are perhaps misinterpreting the feedback, so let me translate it to you: we still ain't buying into saying one thing and using it a false pretext to do something entirely different.

In this case, claiming there is any kind of correlation between the Stuka's allaged pinpoint accuracy and its durability. There is not. All this does is making the most expensive rocket arty that works closest to the frontline crap easy to destroy for lazy Allied players. If you have trouble neutralizing the current Stuka, then perhaps look up some replays because its a play style issue.

If you actually want to fix the Stuka's wiping potential and make it follow the same rules as other rocket arty, then do so. If you can't (or won't), do not touch it because the only thing that's gonna happen is that you break it and along with it, the chances that the DBP could ever go live.



Trouble is, making the Stuka even more vulnerable than it already is does not serve these primarily goals in any way.

I don't see why you are so whinny just because someone nerfed your stuka health.

For example I am happy with the change because every rocket artillery piece should have a counter - brave tank push. If you catch it offguard it should be dead.


After all you have mines an millions AT sources to protect it.


Or would you rather wanted to see katty health bar buffed to 320 (current stuka) ?
Because either sure ability of the one is weak or the surviability of the other is over the top. There can't be in between because these 2 units share completely the same role so the must have same common counters.

Making changes to make changes to justify changes only obscures the balancing process.

Even a good change can detract from the overall product if it's only partially (or not at all) addressing issues of imbalance.

Every additional change lowers the chance of (proper) implementation. Every change makes it harder to gauge, measure, and track impacts on gameplay and balance.

IMO this is more of an innocuous change, but it's something to keep in mind.

Making changes to make changes to justify changes only obscures the balancing process.

Even a good change can detract from the overall product if it's only partially (or not at all) addressing issues of imbalance.

Every additional change lowers the chance of (proper) implementation. Every change makes it harder to gauge, measure, and track impacts on gameplay and balance.

IMO this is more of an innocuous change, but it's something to keep in mind.

If so, then tell me how is nerfing stuka healhbar going to:

a) make the unit useless
b) imbalance the game

I am listening

I don't see why you are so whinny just because someone nerfed your stuka health.

Welcome to COH and assymetric balance. Allies have long range rockets that fire in salvos, OKW has a few destructive short range rockets and OST somewhere in between.

Nobody asked for reducing the Stuka's health.

For example I am happy with the change because every rocket artillery piece should have a counter - brave tank push. If you catch it offguard it should be dead.

100 fuel units should be allowed to be one shotted, because its quite simply retarded design, period. Nobody asked for reducing the Stuka's health. Because its quite simply retarded.

After all you have mines an millions AT sources to protect it.

And you million ways to counter it already. Stukas die in the dozen to competent Allied players. The keyword is competent.

Heck, the UKF has a ONE CLICK off map ability to counter it, the SOV have counter arty in a dozen doctrine and ALL have rocket arty with superior range to counter it.

Its just some Allied players misunderstand counter as 'one click A-move with a tank and OKW lost 100 fuel". Perhaps its time to broaden the tactical repertoire.

Or would you rather wanted to see katty health bar buffed to 320 (current stuka) ?

Sure if the Katy gets HALF the range at the same time.

As it is, the Katy is far worse for OKW than the Stuka is to the Allies, as it faces smaller squads, factions that are built on static weapons, and can unload at regural interval at OKW forward bases from ranges it is COMPLETELY SAFE.

/quote]Because either sure ability of the one is weak or the surviability of the other is over the top. There can't be in between because these 2 units share completely the same role so the must have same common counters.

Funny it works the exact other way around when it comes the Jackson changes...

If so, then tell me how is nerfing stuka healhbar going to:

a) make the unit useless
b) imbalance the game

I am listening

It may imperil the focus and quality of DBP even further.

Like I said, I don't have a problem with the change itself. But I do fear that this potential patch is starting to move aimlessly, which doesn't bode well for community support as Relic determines what to implement and/or when and where to pull the plug.

It may imperil the focus and quality of DBP even further.

Like I said, I don't have a problem with the change itself. But I do fear that this potential patch is starting to move aimlessly, which doesn't bode well for community support as Relic determines what to implement and/or when and where to pull the plug.

I am more concerned that the early patch notes and versions were just bait to once again shove down on the community's throat changes that nobody but a few modders want. The patch is loosing focus and random changes are beginning to appear. It does not bode well.

If the community's balance concern are continued to be ignored and the DBP, once again, becomes a loose cannon, then the 'plug' must be, and will be pulled, which would be unfortunate.

Welcome to COH and assymetric balance. Allies have long range rockets that fire in salvos, OKW has a few destructive short range rockets and OST somewhere in between.

Nobody asked for reducing the Stuka's health.

Some did. it was unkillable in 2v2+ sitting behind a KT and JT.

So according to Assymetrical balance OKW can be a special snowflake that can have better stock infantry, stock tanks, HQ trucks, better rocket artillery, fancy vet 5 and cloaking AT guns ?

Because it is a 1944 Hitler dream faction - ze Wunderwaffe ?

Look at it from this point. In current patch OKW has everyone better than OST except cache (and mg). Hence OST was rarely picked in teamgames compared to OKW.

OST should be good at something and OKW at something else so these 2 factions complete each other in a different way.

OKW - strong infantry, tanks and early game pressure.
OST - strong support team weapons, strong Specialised assault guns (like stug or Brumbaar) and strong artillery.

Currently OKW has much better Rocket artillery (stuka) and also better static howitzer (has 5 vet, is protected by pak43 in same doctrine, can be reinforced by medic HQ, is covered by flak HQ and you can also call in tiger II when you pick defensive commie).

100 fuel units should be allowed to be one shotted, because its quite simply retarded design, period. Nobody asked for reducing the Stuka's health. Because its quite simply retarded.

Why it shouldnt be ? Katty costs 85 fuel and is one shotted, Pwerfer the same. Why Stuka can survive double the beating ? For 15 fuel ?

Buff my werfer and katty by increasing their fuel cost to 100 and allowing them to be 2 shotted.

Also stuka has better armor than both pwerfer and katty, these 2 things dies to a breeze.

And you million ways to counter it already. Stukas die in the dozen to competent Allied players. The keyword is competent.

Heck, the UKF has a ONE CLICK off map ability to counter it, the SOV have counter arty in a dozen doctrine and ALL have rocket arty with superior range to counter it.

Its just some Allied players misunderstand counter as 'one click A-move with a tank and OKW lost 100 fuel". Perhaps its time to broaden the tactical repertoire.

Enlight me please. What are million ways of countering stuka when there is a Jagtiger, Kingtiger, countless rakettens, Panthers, mines and fausting squads in front of it ?

Also its not like Stuka is immobile or slow, once you see tanks ramming through your frontline, you can freely retreat it to your base (which is mined) or hide it somewhere behind a garrison/in a woods

Sure if the Katy gets HALF the range at the same time.

As it is, the Katy is far worse for OKW than the Stuka is to the Allies, as it faces smaller squads, factions that are built on static weapons, and can unload at regural interval at OKW forward bases from ranges it is COMPLETELY SAFE.

Katty needs to get ALWAYS closer than Stuka because it cant hit anything at long range. You need to go to minumal range with it in order to hit something. Stuka on the other hand can sit on its "short" 120 range in order to wipe squads.

Until you prove to me that katty minimal range > stuka max range you arent going to change my mind.

Funny it works the exact other way around when it comes the Jackson changes...

Jackson was 2 shotted by heavy tanks. It has now low RoF and it still dies to JP4, panther and paks. No problem here. Also it cost much more now

Yeah, unfortunately the balance team, in practice, keeps creating this scenario where they appear to be at odds with the community and relic simultaneously.

It may imperil the focus and quality of DBP even further.

Like I said, I don't have a problem with the change itself. But I do fear that this potential patch is starting to move aimlessly, which doesn't bode well for community support as Relic determines what to implement and/or when and where to pull the plug.

I have told the balance team that they should halt another big changes and only focus on small fixes to already made changes in 1.0-1.3 + Commander Revamp. Otherwise it might be tad too much for out beloved community and it will be scrapped once again like FBP was

"Until you prove to me that katty minimal range > stuka max range you arent going to change my mind."

It's ok because it still need to close in to be accurate, and even if it doesn't YOU need to prove or misprove my point. cit.Hector

Nothing among rocket artillery need to fire as close as stuka, not even katy or cop trying to reduce spread need to...
The difference between stuka max range and katy/OP is higher than elephant range..

"So according to Assymetrical balance OKW can be a special snowflake that can have better stock infantry, stock tanks, HQ trucks, better rocket artillery, fancy vet 5 and cloaking AT guns ?"

You talk like:
1) better stock infantry didn't cost 400mp
2) cloacking at gun weren't 50 range complete trash atg (but we can swap those with pounder anytime bro)
3) tanks aren't actually the most cost inefficient version of panzer 4 (150 fuel compared to easy 8 140, for some reason trashier than t34 against infantry anyway), the only heavy requiring a complete teching and the most expensive at vehicle in game
4) lol stuka zu trash (btw. I'm SURE people in teamgames can tell you it is worth it..)
5) if vet 5 wasn't given because if the inability to build caches and consequentially spam armor like a "pro"
6) if vet 4-5 was something every unit reach..not something you will rarely see except on infantry and isg..

"Enlight me please. What are million ways of countering stuka when there is a Jagtiger, Kingtiger, countless rakettens, Panthers, mines and fausting squads in front of it"

The same way you can counter calliOP with m20 mines, atg, double bar terminators, with fireflies, vickers and demo...
Oh wait, even calliop has high durability, so they decided to balance it out by giving less than a slight delay on rockets...

Because taking out calliOP with medium durability (4 shots, given that all of those penetrate) and 200 range isn't an issue...

So much BS and bias...

Find me a single 1vs1 top match where a guy used stuka...I can find you 2 matches with crap halftrack (one is vonivan playing it), but you won't find a stuka...

Absolutely.

However, we don't have the luxury of changing everything at the same time. This is why we need to prioritize changes.

First we fix Brits, then we fix USF and. Finally, if relic still gives us the option to make a 2nd pass over OKW we continue with changing the Stuka and nerfing King Tiger.

December Balance Patch means December. Ideally, we want to leave all 5 factions with some new toys to play with (and not just the commanders), so that everybody is content with the changes. This is because, as you've already witnessed, patches are far and few between. This means we have to hold back from throwing a massive revamp wrench at one particular faction.

If you have trouble realising why Stuka is OP (and will remain OP), you are probably misusing it. Look up on youtube about how to properly aim the stuka.

Personally, the three primary goals for the DBP is:
- Force all 5 factions to use a combination of units to achieve their goals at each stage in the game (e.g., no late-game Vet5 Volks spam > all)
- Make all factions require comparable micro input at all stages in the game, so that there's actual depth involved (i.e., getting to Vet5 should not mean that you no longer have to micro your infantry engagements)
- Adapt faction core/commanders properly, so that each faction has at least 3 strong and valid commanders to choose from, every game (i.e., no Armor Company every single game, just because you picked USF)

Great post +1000

"Until you prove to me that katty minimal range > stuka max range you arent going to change my mind."

It's ok because it still need to close in to be accurate, and even if it doesn't YOU need to prove or misprove my point. cit.Hector

Nothing among rocket artillery need to fire as close as stuka, not even katy or cop trying to reduce spread need to...
The difference between stuka max range and katy/OP is higher than elephant range..

"So according to Assymetrical balance OKW can be a special snowflake that can have better stock infantry, stock tanks, HQ trucks, better rocket artillery, fancy vet 5 and cloaking AT guns ?"

You talk like:
1) better stock infantry didn't cost 400mp
2) cloacking at gun weren't 50 range complete trash atg (but we can swap those with pounder anytime bro)
3) tanks aren't actually the most cost inefficient version of panzer 4 (150 fuel compared to easy 8 140, for some reason trashier than t34 against infantry anyway), the only heavy requiring a complete teching and the most expensive at vehicle in game
4) lol stuka zu trash (btw. I'm SURE people in teamgames can tell you it is worth it..)
5) if vet 5 wasn't given because if the inability to build caches and consequentially spam armor like a "pro"
6) if vet 4-5 was something every unit reach..not something you will rarely see except on infantry and isg..

"Enlight me please. What are million ways of countering stuka when there is a Jagtiger, Kingtiger, countless rakettens, Panthers, mines and fausting squads in front of it"

The same way you can counter calliOP with m20 mines, atg, double bar terminators, with fireflies, vickers and demo...
Oh wait, even calliop has high durability, so they decided to balance it out by giving less than a slight delay on rockets...

Because taking out calliOP with medium durability (4 shots, given that all of those penetrate) and 200 range isn't an issue...

So much BS and bias...

Find me a single 1vs1 top match where a guy used stuka...I can find you 2 matches with crap halftrack (one is vonivan playing it), but you won't find a stuka...

Dont you know this patch is supposed to fix team game meta? Stuka is trash in 1v1 because no one would spam support weapon ( especially maxim get nerf too much) anymore because they all know that there is op non-doctrinal stuka which can come out before 10 minutes.

You talk like:
1) there is such a stock option for ally
2) there is T0 AT gun for ally which can cloak and cheaper ( look at the [ppr doctrinal M-42)
3) there is pershing after full tech for USF
4) there is non-doctrinal mobile artillery for USF. There are non-doctrinal/doctrinal mobile artilleries which can arrive before 10 minutes.
5) caches are free and the faction can have same amount of soldiers after building a cache ( and they are more expensive in upcoming patch)
6) having vet 5 is not an advantage however it definitely is when compare to others that don't have this chance.

Although not every stock units of OKW is the best (in fact most of them is the best already), they undoubtedly are advantages that provide ultimate flexibility for OKW players.

Dont you know this patch is supposed to fix team game meta? Stuka is trash in 1v1 because no one would spam support weapon ( especially maxim get nerf too much) anymore because they all know that there is op non-doctrinal stuka which can come out before 10 minutes.

You talk like:
1) there is such a stock option for ally
2) there is T0 AT gun for ally which can cloak and cheaper ( look at the [ppr doctrinal M-42)
3) there is pershing after full tech for USF
4) there is non-doctrinal mobile artillery for USF. There are non-doctrinal/doctrinal mobile artilleries which can arrive before 10 minutes.
5) caches are free and the faction can have same amount of soldiers after building a cache ( and they are more expensive in upcoming patch)
6) having vet 5 is not an advantage however it definitely is when compare to others that don't have this chance.

Although not every stock units of OKW is the best (in fact most of them is the best already), they undoubtedly are advantages that provide ultimate flexibility for OKW players.

Oh it will SURELY fix the game for teamgamers, so they can play their noob 1 bridge map well...
Favt is that will break 1vs1 and 2vs2, render half the rosters useless and we are talking about the main competitive mode.

1) No indeed, the most cost efficient elite is locked in airborne doctrine, their stock option is to slap double upgrade and make terminators out of their mainline, and support it with the best AI tanks in game (he sherman, t34, centaur..)
2) wow it can cloak, garrison (and fire to infantry), and it's cheap/T0...imagine how powerful it would be if it could hit something and you didn't need 3 of them to get any result.
Meanwhile allies get a viable double at on cheap squads
3) No there isn't, it comes out at 13 CP, which means you won't need tier 2 or 3...
4) no indeed, but last time I checked usf was the only to have an infantry sniper with tank destroyer range, and stock he shell. It has also the only non doc officers with ability like recon pass and arty REGARDLESS of doctrine.
Oh yeah and the NON DOC ability to pop smoke out of tanks asses, as well as having an entire roster that can deploy it, RE, captain, TD and team weapons excluded.
Oh and doctrinal demo, in a super meta doctrine nontheless...
AND non doc riegel mine with perma stun.
5) of course it isn't, yet it STILL didn't get the option to build it and secure cut off, which makes the faction even more fuel territory dependant
If you think it isn't an advantage we can try to give okw fuel caches...
6) you know what's another advantage, having self heal on vehicles, 0.75 moving accuracy and a cover bonus on any infantry unit...guess what? Nothing was taken from them for it

"Although not every stock units of OKW is the best (in fact most of them is the best already)"
LOL
Since when okw got double bar rifles, firefly, pack howie, su76m, calliOP, vickers sniper mg supersayan in buildings, doublebren is in green cover, sherman with hesl shell and still same pen as panzer 4 (110 fuel), 6pounder, mortar pit, demo, m20 mines ?

Back on the original point.

If you want fix wiping potential of a unit that results from it following different rocket spread rules than other unit by halving its hitpoints, you simply do not know what you are doing.

Equally, if as an Allied player you want to make up for your inability to counter a short ranged rocket arty by insisting that you have absolutely no other tactical option (flanking, duh!) than to go full frontal assault with by-design-punier tanks against the HEAVIEST and most expensive, yet slowest tanks and tank destroyers in the game, and expect your troubles would go away because now you'd need one shot instead of two shots, then again you simply do not know what you are doing.

Therefore, it is YOU who need to adapt not EVERYONE ELSE.

If you have trouble realising why Stuka is OP (and will remain OP), you are probably misusing it. Look up on youtube about how to properly aim the stuka.

In which gamemodes is the Stuka OP? 1v1? 2v2? 3v3? 4v4? all?

IMO for 1v1 and 2v2 purposes the only overpowered feature was to destroy buildings in one go and if anything else it might have needed a buff against emplacements

In which gamemodes is the Stuka OP? 1v1? 2v2? 3v3? 4v4? all?

IMO for 1v1 and 2v2 purposes the only overpowered feature was to destroy buildings in one go and if anything else it might have needed a buff against emplacements

2v2+

There you go:


You're welcome.

2v2+

You're welcome.

Thank you for the video, although it didn't contain anything new for me and my judgement of its performance was therefore not influenced by it.

Now, you say that the stuka is OP for 2v2+, from which follows that it is not op in 1v1. Therefore by issuing such a drastic nerf, it will then be underpowered in 1v1 after the patch hits. Wasn't 1v1 the most important gamemode for balancing?

And why don't you address the problems of 4v4 and 3v3 in a smarter way, like changing the ressource inflation in those modes by changing caches or ressource points?

Massed Panthers are not a problem in 1v1 or 2v2, same for elefant and jagdtiger!

Don't get me wrong, i really like the majority of the changes in the patch, especially the bugfixes, but in some other instances, well, ....

2v2+

There you go:


You're welcome.

Lol nerf is justified indeed. Keep at it! Any possible solutions for Axis receiving way more friendly fire compared to Allies? This is an annoying factor in teamgames as well.

is the firepower op on stuka...or its HP??

look at its cost and than look to the cost of a LM, their many rockets, their crew(wich can be easily recrewed) ...


u must be noob if u place your teamweapon in a line ...but LM destroy whole areas...