DBP Commander Revamp brainstorming

(OKW) Luftwaffe Ground Forces Doctrine
Heavy fortification:
AA gun can not be sniped, can gain veterancy, has a ability similar to Centaur "strafing ability". Has to be turned into AA only mode to fire on planes.

Trenches now cost manpower and are locket to owner only or can be dismantled.

Raketen in trench gains 180+180 fire angle, +5-10 vision, +5-10 range. Response time before firing from trench reduced.

Tank trap now build slower (for all factions and take have more HP)

Fallj now can be built from HQ for normal price (no premium, for all infiltration units)). Bundle grenade now replaced by an incendiary or WP grenade (for all cloaked or infiltration units) or Blendkörper become available at vet 0 work as WP grenade and affect on vehicle remain even if vehicles moves out of smoke.

Airborne assault/reconnaissance overflight replaced by Luftwaffe officer. Officer has a recon plane similar to major and can call in stuka strafes similar to CAS commander. Also has a aura reducing Target size by 95% -3-3-4(with veterancy)

For recon Support

Give rifleman a "recon kit", 1 of the rifleman will be given a scoped springfield that do the same thing as the Pathfinder one. (and maybe can call artillery, but i think its too much)

Give riflemans Flares (Match the "lore" of recon)

Give the m8 greyhound his REAL role (in real life). A light AntiTank vehicle like Puma. M8 greyhound will have the same gun (or better) as stuart with better range.

Remove recon swipe (major already have it) and give them an late game off map ability that cost ammo, maybe a p47 bombrun.

But all of these things I said, the only thing that I really want is the M8 greyhound role changed to AntiTank or Antivehicle. It won't overlap stuart, sinse it will have a better range, and worst AI abilities, and more vulnerable.

Jaeger Infantry doctrine:
camo now offer is x95-90% target size is also available for pioneers and cost reduction to 20.

"Jaeger light infantry upgrade" at CP2 or 3, now replaces all weapons with g43 with a profile similar to m1 moving optimum range to mid. Maybe even available to pios for a lesser version of g43.

Allows a 5 member for PGs or even for grenadiers also.

"Tactical movement" replaced by Puma or from JLR unit similar to OKW or Stug E.

Hmm. Once under the change hit Tanks Hunting Tactics, I propose to replace the PTRS on Bazooka / Schreck, too many PTRS (conscrits, guards, penal)

Osttruppen Doctrine
Osttruppen target size to 1 cost to 180 bonus, accuracy bonues reduce to x2-2,5 does not apply in picked up weapons, unit can now merge, unit can no longer be reinforced. Increase CD for ability.

At vet 2 can be upgrade to "Freiwillige" can be refitted (unit withdraws and a new unit appears) a 5 men grenadier squad (no lmg available).

Artillery field officer replaced by an infantry officer, Infantry officer provide a x105% accuracy aura +3+3+4 with veterancy and active ability giving an additional 20% cool-down.
Gets a smoke grenade or a "Kurt Mayer grenade" (from the Klissura Pass incident) ability reducing suppression of troops.
Unit had 2 g43 1 St44 1 luger. Can upgrade lugger with a ST44 with BP2 upgrade.

Trenches now now also provide tank traps. Trenches now cost manpower and are available only to player or can be dismantled.

Gustav does extra damage to emplacements.

Give the M8 Greyhound his old shrapnel shot back BabyRage
Alternative: buff its armor and give access to a .50cal top gunner upgrade

Another bad ability of that doc is this 900mp reinforcement drop with 1 AT gun and 2 paras, because you never know what u get (para weaponry being random). I suggest to always drop them with 2x M1919 only (or Thompsons only) and remove the RNG from this ability.

Can you buff the shocks too or their are meant to be shocking awful ?

(OKW) Feuersturm

Recoup Loses cost to 60 munny, now all units give the right MP value back (volks - 25, sturms 30, obers 40, ...)

Thorough Salvaged removed, its more of a nerf than buff ability. Replaced by lieght incendiary round - similar to OST mortar HT incing round.

Hetzer damage buffed to KV8 level, hetzer vet requirements lowered, dies to 4 AT gun shots (not 3)

Stuka Barrage - can always kill static howitzer, not 8 out of 10 times.

People are suggesting a merge for some abilities, another a replacement ability. I am not sure what you are allowed but adding or changing into more unique abilities could be good.

USF: Recon Support

-I would like to see a merge/replace with Forward Observers and with Rifle Company: Riflemen Flares. Both abilities are meant for scouting. The riflemen flare ability is also much stronger of the two.

-I and R Pathfinders: In the Current State, no one wants a weak three man squad with a high reinforcement cost. I am personally leaning towards a Soviet Sniper Clone with the same abilities.

-The M8 in live is just weak. A simple damage of the main gun from 60 to 80 is quite reasonable. The veterancy 1 could be changed to recon ability to help fill in the role of Recon Support.

-Recon Sweep: The Major has already a weaker variant of this ability. Replacing it with the Recon Loiter from Tactical Support could be a good option.

-Para Drop Combat group
This ability needs a rework for we all know it is too expensive and comes too late

Idea 1:
Regular Paratrooper Drop
This squad could be a bit different such as four men but equipped with Thompsons


Idea 2:
Maybe make it a good counterpart to Luftwaffe Ground Assault. A munitions ability that drops one paratrooper with a P47 Machine Gun Loiter to support its landing?


Mechanized Company

-WC 51 is a strong vehicle but with vet 0 cloaking Raketenwerfer and panzerfausts do give it a hard time.
My simple solution is to reduce the fuel cost to 10 but make it start on cool down and increase the cool down to 1 minute. Additionally instead of step on it for a vet 1 ability, a passive capture may be a good alternative in order have more usage as a capper as the game progresses.

-A Unique Alternative is to make the WC 51 already garrisoned with a unit such as Assault Engines. This can help free up the M3 Slot.


-M3 right now has too little health to be effective. Also, it is not a very good ability when an ambulance is a cheaper alternative to an investment. Again with the recon sweep already available to the major, creating another dead ability. Changing both of theses may be necessary.

Possible replacments:
-Buildable Sherman (76)
While not as strong or durable as an E8 it is slight upgrade to fight armor over an standard M4A3 Sherman

-M8 Greyhound
With Recon Support getting buffed, this could be a good call in with withdraw and refit.

-M21 Mortar Halftrack
An underrated unit with a high fuel cost. Withdraw and Refine can help alleviate this.

-M5
I am actually against this since the M15 is much better in AA and Infantry Support.

-Sherman (105) Dozer
With the Jackson Buffs, a doctrinal Anti Infantry asset could be quite good.

-Combine Arms
Why is this not already in the doctrine?

-Cavalierly Riflemen?
An elite infantry call in unit?
Able to use abilities while garrison in a WC51


Guard Rifle Combined Arms

-Guards
I never liked how all range effective Guards are. I would make their PTRS and DP-28s separate and independent upgrades. Making them not come with PTRS's is actually a large buff to their anti infantry damage. With the squad not having PTRS and Button together, this could make a much needed price decrease for Button. This could make Combined Arms Army's AT gun ambush plus button a powerful combo. Additionally to improve vehicle damage a third PTRS for their upgrade could make it into more of a AT role. However a slight nerf of moving accuracy from .75 to .5 would be warranted as well.

-ML-20
Manpower cost should be reduced to add fuel. With this done the Lefh 18 should get the same treatment.


Tank Hunters

-PMD 6M Light AT mines
Instead of having a tiny little mine stun an entire tank why not make it into a CoH1 style mine that can be queued into a line. (This could be applied to the Rear Echelon mine.)

Units laid mines in a line that does a small amount of damage. Say at 75% health remaining the engine would be damaged. At 25% Heavy Engine Damage is sustained. Of course, do not let them chain react.

-Engineer Salvage Kits
100 munitions for an ability you may not even use...
It would not be over the top if it were to become a free passive.


Jaeger Infanty


-Ambush Camouflage
This ability for what it does seems reasonably cost for the units it effects but I would like it effect more units. It could receive a buff by allowing other units to make use of it as well. Pioneers could make use of this for helping ambushing units. They are equipped with SMGs, though I would increase their First Strike Capability seeing they very weak. Mortar with camouflage could be interesting. Let them to hold fire to hide away from flanking squads. A Camouflage PaK 40 maybe a bit overpowered but maybe not.

-Fast March
To make it more unique from other doctrines why not make it into a 0CP Encirclement Sprint? This will help prevent overlap with Storm Doctrine and Lightening War


I would not mind if either/both of the late game munitions sinks into an earlier/aggressive ability.

-Elite Infantry unit Call in?
Stormtroopers in this doctrine would not be half bad but an upgrade would be too similar however, there are speech codes for a Jaeger Light Infantry. Jaegers would be like the OKW, with their utility allowing more uniqueness. Also, allow the stormtrooper bulletins to affect them to allow a hat trick of the bulletin.

-Model 24 Stun Grenades
A perfect ability for an ambushing unit. (this may allow for a much needed damage nerf seeing it is over preforming for its cost.)


Osttruppen
Osttruppen themselves are fine but the other abilities are lack luster.

-Artillery Officer
If there was one more body guard, then this unit will be reasonable in combat. Additionally if the Officer itself had lower priority then the guard would do their job.
Cost would be needed to increase to about 270-280 however

-Trench
I would merge this ability with the Defensive Doctrine: Tank Traps which will free up the slot this idea.
The Trench Ability could be replaced with a callin/build-able Short Barreled P4s. This will fit in with the style of Reserve Units. One the other side of Defensive Doctrine. The Short Barreled P4s have good Synergy with Hull Down and with the Pak 43. Hull Down would increase their effectiveness and the Pak 43 would be the AT Asset.
The speech code can the Armor Reserves Call in. If it is a buildable I would make be built in the HQ but requires Battlephase Two. It would come out earlier that other medium tanks and be independent from a T3 base build so the player can go straight to T4

-The Supply drop is too map dependent. Why not an Opel Blitz call in?

-Railway does provide amble warning so does it really need the flare call in? Additionally I would like it to be more consistent vs emplacements since brace can actuality make it live through it

I don't understand how people think ostruppen doctrine is bad and need revamped. It just scales bad into late game, but the doctrine dominates so hard early to mid game. There are so many other commanders needing revamped (encirclement doctrine, defensive doctrine, infantry doctrine, Luftwaffe supply doctrine, close air support doctrine.)

It would be nice to see them add the pershing to another US commander. US players had to wait so very long to finally get one heavy tank, and there is only one commander that has access to it.
If they had another pershing commander, they might be less inclined to rely on zook blobs to deal with late game armour.

If I remember correctly there was a butterly mines style ability in Ardennes Assault. Adding that to a commander would be very welcome. I certainly miss that ability from the PE in COH1.

Also, how about finally buffing the OKW commander specific 2-cm Flak emplacements. Maybe set a limit of one, and give it a huge buff to armour and HP, as well as rate of fire. So it acts more like the one from COH1.

USF: Recon Support

American sniper would make this the CoH1-throwback doctrine (US Sniper, greyhound etc). While this would be very fun to try, I fear that given that snipers are extremely powerful, there would be too little time to evaluate long-term consequences.

Mechanized Company

MortarHT is extremely thematic for the doctrine. Hopefully, as you point out, with withdraw and refit the doctrine will finally find some synergy.

-Guards
I never liked how all range effective Guards are. I would make their PTRS and DP-28s separate and independent upgrades. Making them not come with PTRS's is actually a large buff to their anti infantry damage. With the squad not having PTRS and Button together, this could make a much needed price decrease for Button. This could make Combined Arms Army's AT gun ambush plus button a powerful combo. Additionally to improve vehicle damage a third PTRS for their upgrade could make it into more of a AT role. However a slight nerf of moving accuracy from .75 to .5 would be warranted as well.

We kind of tried specialist guards in Revamp. While they did the job, they felt boring. Specialized infantry works for WFA, since you can get your baseline infantry from minute 0. Guards are forced to be generalist units, given that you already have your backbone out by 2CP.

I think Ostheer's Jaeger Infantry Doctrine is too packed with munitions-dependent abilities, which makes some of them impossible to use in matches as you never have that many resources.

I would prefer either seeing one ability replaced by non-MN one (arty officer maybe?) to relieve the MN reliance, or making that even more efficient by replacing one ability with the Opel Blitz truck to help players with the MN situation.

I would pick the Stuka Close Air Support ability for this replacement, as it fits less well into the commander's elite infantry theme than the other abilities it has.

P.S. Thank you for asking the community for their ideas on this.

USF
Mechnized:
Jeep- Make it a real jeep, no garrision(or the garrison can't shoot), and cheaper, capping at vet 1 and a 1 min cool down to start also sound like good ideas.

Halftrack- replace with mortar HT sounds good to me

Recon sweep- Remove this, it's very good in combination with the offmap (for precisely timed barrages) but i agree it can go b/c the major has one.

Sherman- Replace recon sweep with the soviet sherman M4C built from the major. Its already in game, would be nice for the USF to have access to the tank that they produced. I think it would be a fun addition to the late game for usf.

Recon support:
Greyhound- Unlock with tech not cps. Remove the question of timing, increase cost and performance.

I&R pathfinders-make them able to fight stuff, give them recon planes and remove recon plane from commander to free up for another ability

Recon

- Give Riflemen Flares in addition to Forward Observers "Recon "Kit"
- Give I&R Pathfinders additional utility beyond Artillery Call-in
- OKW Officer-esqe "Target Them" munition ability vs. infantry
- Mark Vehicle-lite against vehicles
- Infantry awareness like 222 ability
- Buff greyhound damage so it can actually threaten 222/Luches + fix Canister Shot or replace
- Spotting scopes for tanks or a munition ability to temporarily increase vehicle sight
- Obviously fix the Combat Group somehow
- Allow Paratrooper manned Support Weapons to reinforce at beacons?
- Eliminate Random Equipment aspect and standardize or allow upgrades
Mechanized

- Obviously Fix Dodge Truck and Halftrack Assault Group
- Change to M5-ish levels of health
- Halftrack has Combined Arms-esqe ability that boosts infantry when nearby
- Command Sherman - Some kind of aura- tank in the vein of OST and Brit versions.

Royal Engineer

Sapper Utility Kits - Sappers get (or can upgrade) to improved kits to get access to a Tellers Mine Clone, Heavy Barbed Wire, Salvage Kits etc (you get the idea)

Heavy Engineer Combat Group - Call-in Of 1 or 2 Heavy Engineer(s) (Anvil Version) maybe give them ability to booby trap garrisons/points and/or ability to upgrade to Vickers or PIATs?

Replace Flame-Building Off-Map with Incendiary Barrage or ANY off-map that's worth a damn.

Commando

Hard to say - it's mostly a good commander but overshadowed - I agree Mortar Cover is very underrated (I've always thought the whole no-vision aspect was OP AF but ya know...)

Raid- Change the smoke, I find it obscures my vision just as much and makes life difficult. Targeted smoke barrage on front-line strategic points like OKW Assault Arty?

Commando- Either make it a cheaper one-time call-in or make Commandos buildable for 350 if you land it defensively. For the love of God give commandos real smoke grenades at Vet 1. OR give them Vet/an Ability to quickly decap or cap points.

The idea of a glider-tank like Valentine would be cool too in lieu of Bombing run (if it gives you an excuse to buff Valentine lolol)

about Recon Support Company i think if we able to bring Greyhound from revamp to use that would be great. for IR Pathfinder is it reasonable if this unit can upgrade 1 M1grand scope with ability that snipe 1 model and cause victim's squad to move in caution (propaganda effect) then cost it with long cooldown and for 900mp paradrop is it reasonable if we change this ability to sector ability that require you to cut enemy sector and secure it within .... second and if we able to do so a upgraded paratrooper will paradrop to that sector

Recon Support

Replace Forward Observers with a scoped rifle upgrade, similar to what Panzerfusiliers get.

IR Pathfinders - please fix pop cap, 6 is absurd for a 3 model squishy squad. Give them the ability to plant the 30 muni mines and let them cloak like snipers

Greyhound - at minimum, include armor skirts free when called in, maybe fix main gun to make it somewhat useful, canister shot is currently a joke

Recon Sweep- replace with m1919 upgrade, why does a recon company only have short range weapon upgrades?

Airdropped Combat group - break it up into something less expensive and give more control over the weapons that the paratroopers get. If you can float 900 mp, you can probably win the game without any abilities.

Mechanized

WC51 - This unit goes between OP and garbage every time it is changed. It would be nice if you could buff it but not to the point that I see three of them every time I play OKW in a 1v1.

Withdraw & Refit - think it is currently okay

Halftrack assault group - either replace with plain Assault engineers or with a motar half track. The ability is too expensive and doesn't do much.

Recon Sweep - replace with Pershing

155 mm Artillery - currently okay

Feuerstorm

Commander isn't terrible, in fact decent on city maps. It doesn't get used a lot because it is situational so commanders like Spec Ops are always better to have in loadout.

Hetzer - worst ability in doctrine, needs to get close to be effective but then doesn't live long. Maybe decrease target size so that it has some chance of doing something.

LGF

Another situational commander that isn't too bad.
Flak emplacements are still a joke. Either fix or replace with something usable.
On a lot of maps, Falls are too much of a glass cannon, maybe buff reinforce cost and time.

OST
All commanders - could you make Grens survive better against indirect? The only starting infantry that I like less than Grens is the live version Cons.

Jaeger Inf - Light Artillery Barrage - maybe make it into a timed counter battery ability to cut down on Allied indirect fire abuse (clone the British one)

Ostruppen - replace Concentrated Fire with an offmap Counter Battery (like British one), replace coordinated fire with a clone of the USF major's offmap

I'll provide feedback for the brit commando doctrine, since no one has already.

Smoke raid operation:
I actually love this ability but it is a little tough to actually coordinate the push. For those unaware, what this ability does it for each infantry unit (+ support weapons too? Don't remember.) in friendly territory it drops a smoke pot on the unit. Units inside will cloak (including support weapons) and have commando like camo briefly. Points will be neutralized faster.

It might be helpful to for this ability to either dictate where the smoke is being dropped so that I can plan around it; it's simply too much to keep track of when you have lots of units moving around. I suggest something similar to the tactical support scavenge royal engineer call in, where it highlights on the minimap where the wrecks are, or something similar to that effect.

Another suggestion is to have smoke drop on the borders of a neutral territory (enemy if you find this too powerful) and a friendly connected territory, which will help the ability be more consistent.

Assault:
This ability is iffy for me. What this does is a slew of recon planes will sweep the area and infantry sections only will be on sprint and have an accuracy buff. Having sprinting infantry sections sound nice, but being unable to fire on the move can make the whole assault theme of this ability more like "find cover for the infantry sections" theme.

I'd suggest giving the ability to have infantry sections fire on the move, with the caveat of reducing the sprint just a little bit, disallowing weapons to be able to be fired on the move, and reducing the assault munitions just a tad bit.

Commando Insertion:
The main complaint of this is that one would think that the commando doctrine is less commando-y than the vanguard doctrine. To get one commando you would need 500 mp from the commando doctrine, while to get one commando from vanguard, you would need 890 mp but you get the airlanding officer + forward retreat point, which is worth the difference imo. The difference in mp shrinks if you want to build more commandos.

However, I like the aggressive aspect of the commando insertion, but it's worth while to facilitate a change to bring the commando aspect into the commando doctrine. Leave the insertion as is, but if the player decides to call in the glider defensively, within friendly territory, give a possible upgrade to the glider to allow it to build more commandos. It can only build commandos only when in friendly territory. To maintain the flavor of vanguard, the upgraded commando insertion glider should not be able to have a forward retreat point.

Mortar Cover:
Good ability. Only issue is with this ability is being sector dependent. Wildly op on some sectors, wildly up on others. Maybe area of effect circle should be used? I'm not 100% on how this should be changed.

Air Supremacy:
Pretty useless in 1s, very powerful in team games. However I think it should be changed thematically (and this is also conditioned that the schwere truck has the AA toggle mode, otherwise this ability would be useless against multiple okws). Have a recon plane enter first, then a few seconds later a strafing machine gun plane, a few seconds after that a bombing run plane (I'd recommend it to do damage equivalent to 75% HP of an OKW base truck, just to incentivize people to push in conjunction with air supremacy.). Reduce the munitions for this ability, I think anywhere from 200-250 would be a good price point.

I fully support Ost having access to Jaegers in the doctrine of the same name. It wouldn't be stuck in a position where you'd rather get Panzerfuss, and would give Ost some options for better sabotage and infiltration, granted the abilities remain.

It's already a munition heavy doctrine, a specialist call-in could spice it up.