Conscript's DPS in the new patch.

Ok, can someone please explain the issue in one sentence like you would like to explain to an idiot, asking for a friend.

(Cons are now OP???)

The first issue comes from changing "weapon profile" of the mosin only and moving range 0 to 10 making bolt action rifle performance inconstant across the faction.

That is regardless is cons are OP or not.

The second issue is that changes have more impact in the early game than they have at mid to late as it was the intended goal and affecting grenadier vs conscript balance more than VG vs conscript balance.

"Conscript
To make Conscript squads scale better into the mid to late game, as well as, be able to trade better vs comparable Axis squads such as Volksgrenadiers, the following changes have been made:"

Well, what would YOU have changed then instead of looking at schematics at what is written in a pathnotes' description?

Won't the reinforcement costs being too cheap be a problem for such squad now ?

Possibly. I am rather worried about the doctrines that allow you to get manpower free con squads.

Well, what would YOU have changed then instead of looking at schematics at what is written in a pathnotes' description?

I have made suggestion many time including in this thread. You simply make me repeat them.

Show Spoiler

But this thread is about the actual changes in MOD and not my suggestion in design.

I have made suggestion many time including in this thread. You simply make me repeat them.

If one want to increase the performance of conscript in late game one should offer global upgrades in all building giving the player choice either to invest on conscripts or redirect resources elsewhere.

Another approach would be to redesign both Penals and conscripts into an cheap offensive squad and defensive one, leaving room for both to operate.

Yet another would be to have conscript work as stop gap and a utility unity until Soviet get access to more powerful later (by moving stock elite units to T3 Guards?) or doctrinal units.

In addition any changes to "weapon profiles" should apply to all weapons of the same, type bolt action near range should be 0 or 10 or 15 for all them.

Please do repeat them, as myself and others seem to fail to understand what you exactly want. You merely seem to repeat that "conscripts OP!! ZOMG" with simply more obfuscate wording. What about we play a game together and post a few replays here? I've sent you my steam over PM!

Idea that conscripts should be able to deal with late game axis infantry without tech/weapon upgrades or somethings else is flawed in its origin. Late game axis infantry are infantry with a tech cost and should be able to win vs T0 units.

I don't see an issue with the fact that if someone chooses to go from 20 to 10 with their lmg grens to engage cons, actually loses instead of winning at all ranges. Anyone moving in with grens is already making a mistake. Moving in with grens is always a bad choice, the fact that they could get away with it and still win due to the lmg, does not validate it.

If I wanted to fix conscript's late performance I would offer global upgrades for them one in each building.

I am all for upgrades to add choice and diversity to the game. We can agree on this. But this might be out of scope while this adjustment might make an underperforming unit more valid which for me is an overall improvement.

To tell you the truth I don't really feel that grenadier are allot better in late game and I rarely replaced them if lose a squad to an explosion and go for pioneers.

They are The problem is not their performance it's the fact that they get wiped by demos and due to clumping other things. This should also hopefully get better with the new patch (even though demos remain the same for now). The reason why you and also I (most likely others as well) often opt to go for pioneers is because we just need something to cap and repair tanks because the tanks do more of the fighting and having them repaired quicker seems more beneficial in terms of damage dealt than replacing a lost gren.

Cruzz was right about the DPS at far (there was typo in accuracy) but he is not taking into account the near range change so his numbers in range 10 are off.

What numbers are off? Conscripts have a standard downward sloping dps curve, so the near change will not reduce DPS at any range either.

The jury is still out, and its not as simple as cons being OP but also how a stronger conscript squad can amplify the faction as a whole into being too strong.

I get what you're saying, I just wanna know what do numbers say exactly. Do they inflict more damage/snipe models now?

grens lose even vs medics...wtf

https://youtu.be/BzKNXUoTZs0?t=2043

That was just shit play...

I get what you're saying, I just wanna know what do numbers say exactly. Do they inflict more damage/snipe models now?

I'm not your numbers guy, there has been plenty of analysis from others so i would suggest using those as a base. After that it become about actual testing, in a competitive match and in test conditions.

I'm not your numbers guy, there has been plenty of analysis from others so i would suggest using those as a base. After that it become about actual testing, in a competitive match and in test conditions.

True. Im gonna have to wait and see how this plays out. Thanks mate

True. Im gonna have to wait and see how this plays out. Thanks mate

Np buddy

What numbers are off? Conscripts have a standard downward sloping dps curve, so the near change will not reduce DPS at any range either.

But the accuracy has not been adjusted conscripts in range 10 now do the damage they did in range 0 which is a serous buff and an anomaly.

I get what you're saying, I just wanna know what do numbers say exactly. Do they inflict more damage/snipe models now?

there are number in OP

I get what you're saying, I just wanna know what do numbers say exactly. Do they inflict more damage/snipe models now?

What the numbers are saying is, that in a perfect vacuum, where we ignore that units actually have to close in to get to a certain distance and we only consider vet0 cons and grens:

- cons will beat grens at range 0 to somewhere past 27 (again, completely ignoring that they'd have to close in without taking any damage). This is currently also the case. What mainly changed is that cons will trade very well at range 10 because their weapons do not drop off until that distance compared to the gren Kar.

- cons will now beat lmg grens up until range 10 (they lose at 20 again). This is not the case pre patch where cons would lose at basically any distance except something around 0 (again ignoring that they'd have to actually get there first without taking losses).

The changes basically give cons a range at which they can compete. We'll have to wait and see how that plays out overall.

(there is always the possibility that I made a mistake in some calculation and I am sure that the community members creating the mod would be better suited to make statements )

Please refer to Cruzz's post here for a graphic representation of the dps changes:

Lower blue line is old and upper one is new, and red dotted line is likewise while moving.

But the accuracy has not been adjusted conscripts in range 10 now do the damage they did in range 0 which is a serous buff and an anomaly.

Yes it has been adjusted, and no it's not an anomaly. The reason near range has been moved to 10 was to lower conscript DPS at ranges 0 and 10, so as to not make G43 a completely useless upgrade.

But the accuracy has not been adjusted conscripts in range 10 now do the damage they did in range 0 which is a serous buff and an anomaly.

I don't see how this contradicts anything I've said.

Yes it has been adjusted, and no it's not an anomaly. The reason near range has been moved to 10 was to lower conscript DPS at ranges 0 and 10, so as to not make G43 a completely useless upgrade.

This on the other hand is just silly, you've massively buffed conscripts at 10 and below, yet you say you've done the opposite. Which is it?

EDIT: Here's a 10 hours in mspaint graph of what the conscript dps change actual does (with nagants). Lower blue line is old and upper one is new, and red dotted line is likewise while moving.

Yes it has been adjusted, and no it's not an anomaly. The reason near range has been moved to 10 was to lower conscript DPS at ranges 0 and 10, so as to not make G43 a completely useless upgrade.

It has not, patch conscript have a DPS 3.44 from 10 to 0 which is the same with DPS conscripts did at range 0.

I know what the affect from this change are and I have actually suggested it nearly a year and half ago, but for all bolt action weapons.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/52782/suggested-improvements-to-small-arms-weapons

As long as this change does not apply to ALL bolt action rifles it will be an "anomaly".

In addition the new curve as demonstrate from cruzz (thanks man) is more linear (similar to SVTs) and thus diminishes the affects of relative positioning, and the original intention of Relic of making conscript trade well at range 25.