Conscript's DPS in the new patch.

DPS at range 0-10-20-30

mosin_nagant_rifle_conscript_mp--3.44--2.52--1.96--1.22
Patch
mosin_nagant_rifle_conscript_mp--3.43--3.43--2.12--1.35


conscript_ppsh-41_sub_machine_gun_mp--10.82--10.82--1.09--0.20
Patch
conscript_ppsh-41_sub_machine_gun_mp--9.84--9.84--0.99--0.18

PPSh squad DPS--42.78--40.02--9.14--4.26
Patch
PPSh squad DPS--39.79--39.79--9.31--3.84

Soviet infantry changes, my analysis:
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The tl:dr is cons now op need more nerfs and penal still op. Viper doesn't want soviets to have any viable infantry it would seem.

I think Vipper needs nerf for his love to OKW. And he should recieve some buff to Soviet love.

I actually have pointed out numerous times that half the problem conscripts have come from the VG ST44 upgrade...

If one want to get personal one should better learn more about that person before making comments...

If one actually read my post one will see that did propose any nerf to conscripts but I do think than an almost x140% buff to DPS even if at only 1 range will cause issues.

I also don't see why a units equipped with a bolt action rifle should "ourah" to range 10 to be effective.

VG is OK.


Penals beat them
Rifle beat them
InfSection beat them
If stay in cover
or depends on who attacks

Problem that VG have incediary nade.

Luvnest Quote: Oh my god enemy stay in green cover What i am gonna do about it (throwing incediary nade at them)

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Problem that VG have incediary nade.
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And if you actually read my post you would see that I have pointed out numerous times that mainline infantry should not have incendiary grenades. (Which by the way conscripts also have and are getting buffed).

(At the same time cloaked units should have DOT weapon and not demolition nukes)

If one remove Inc. Grenades from VG (as one should), one has to give other tools to them for dealing with garrison.

But this thread is about small arm fire and DPS, not grenades.

I think you should recieve some buff to Soviet love then

I think you should recieve some buff to Soviet love then

Not sure what you mean, but imo Penals are an OP unit, until they lose some of their initial punch and some power from their vet bonuses (or even better have an overhaul) its hard and meta shifts it hard to identify balance issues with the Soviets faction.

What you are missing is that Conscripts now have to overkill targets as they went from doing 16x5 damage to 12x7 damage to effectively kill a model.

Same reasons 2% HP bulletins were OP.

What you are missing is that Conscripts now have to overkill targets as they went from doing 16x5 damage to 12x7 damage to effectively kill a model.

Same reasons 2% HP bulletins were OP.

12 Same as the VGs K98...

If you want to remove the affect of overkill multiply DPS by around 95%.

The overkill will mean much less for the PPsh conscripts.

The issue here is, why should a units with bolt action rifles have to move to range 10 for optimum results vs enemy mainline infantry?

HP bulletins actually made entity to survive a extra shot (but where countered by extra damage bulletins)

12 Same as the VGs K98...

If you want to remove the affect of overkill multiply DPS by 95%.

The overkill will mean much less for the PPsh conscripts.

The issue here is why should a units with bolt action rifles have to move to range 10 for optimum results?

But current Volks are OP cause they scale with STG44 and they are fighting in tandem with Kubel/Sturmpios. Both units which IIRC have focus fire false and have low damage high rof which spreads out damage. Volks work because they scale, that's not the case for Conscripts which fall flat as the game progress.

It seems you don't get the importance of early engagements and exact kill damage. Current Conscripts win engagements cause they can snap models by having RNG on your side, specially if they are defending.
For the PPSH comparison, you also miss that as the conscript squad loses models, their DPS will lower even more prior to pre patch which is fine (PPSH vet 3 cons are pretty good).

It seems you are more concerned about DPS curves rather than how they will behave ingame. I found it weird that Conscripts are gonna get a damage model more akin to a SMG/Carbine but at the same time i found it weird that conscripts optimal range was 20/25 instead of CQC against other main line infantry.

I say wait till we have the patch to see how current Conscripts feel out.

PD: i found it also misleading that you mention Pios as a comparison on the 10/15 range, when they have a meaningful DPS till range 8 which then has a BIG drop off.

But current Volks are OP cause they scale with STG44 and they are fighting in tandem with Kubel/Sturmpios. Both units which IIRC have focus fire false and have low damage high rof which spreads out damage. Volks work because they scale, that's not the case for Conscripts which fall flat as the game progress.

I have pointed out STG44 several times
I have pointed out the the scatter hit also and suggest to fix that especially to kubel instead on nerfing the EHP.
And I have pointed out that the majority of issues with conscripts come rather from VG and not from Grenadiers.

It seems you don't get the importance of early engagements and exact kill damage. Current Conscripts win engagements cause they can snap models by having RNG on your side, specially if they are defending.

I think I get pretty well. What will happen with these changes is that anyone that want to use conscripts will ourah them to range 10, where "point blank" mechanism kicks in and the whole cover mechanism goes out the window. The result? fight from tactical will become a bloody mess of having to counter wave after wave of screaming conscripts.

For the PPSH comparison, you also miss that as the conscript squad loses models, their DPS will lower even more prior to pre patch which is fine (PPSH vet 3 cons are pretty good).

Their DPS might drop by their effective EHP will be up from vet 1, their molotovs become more effective from vet 2 and in the end of the day they will still be able to beat lmg grenadier easily.

It seems you are more concerned about DPS curves rather than how they will behave ingame. I found it weird that Conscripts are gonna get a damage model more akin to a SMG/Carbine but at the same time i found it weird that conscripts optimal range was 20/25 instead of CQC against other main line infantry.

Changes in the patch and behavior is directly related to the DPS curves.

Having conscripts with an optimal range of 20-25 makes sense since the relative positioning would be optimal in ranges similar to riflemen.

If one want to make Conscript a CQC unit one should change the weapon type and not ignore weapon profiles. Or use ability so that it makes more sense, for instance ourah could improve close DPS.

I also have to point out that in the current meta and probably in the patch conscripts are not the Soviet "mainline infantry" Penals are, and conscript are support units, providing heavy cover, cheap reinforcement and AT snares.

I say wait till we have the patch to see how current Conscripts feel out.

PD: i found it also misleading that you mention Pios as a comparison on the 10/15 range, when they have a meaningful DPS till range 8 which then has a BIG drop off.

It is not misleading, conscript will eat pios for breakfast in all ranges above 5. And actually Pio are one of the few equipped with smgs with curve that actually make sense having near range at 0.

If one actually read my post one will see that did propose any nerf to conscripts but I do think than an almost x140% buff to DPS even if at only 1 range will cause issues.

Maybe I'm missing something but where is that 140% buff? If you are looking at your numbers for 0-10 ranges than the increase of the patch over what you stated pre patch is less than 3 dps and thereby not even 10% higher than the original dps.

DPS at range 0-10-20-30
PPSh squad DPS--42.78--40.02--9.14--4.26
Patch
PPSh squad DPS--39.79--39.79--9.31--3.84

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1- Then why bring Volks Kar into the discussion when they have already been like that since rework and have a completely different early game unit interaction. From what i can remember cons openings have fallen in disgrace against OKW since either Maxim spam and now Penals have been meta and against OH, it was basically an RNG duel or whoever screwed cover play. Either Cons snap a gren model (either through target prioritisation or luck) or Grens killed models faster. This is why i say that even if they have practically the same DPS other than 10 range exactly, the dinamic is gonna be different.

2- People spammed hoorah when it was 5muni and you could rush buildings in the game. Try to keep spamming hoorah at every single engagement and you are gonna be dry of it. You also lose your 50% dps while running.

3- Doctrinal weapon upgrade + hoorah + molotov. This is what you are telling me will defeat easily Grens? They are still gonna have the most obvious wind up throw animation. If there's an issue is in vet 3 with PPSH vs Grens late game. But then again same concept could be said about G43.

4- Makes sense for you. Conscript match up against Grens was always like: Cons close = win. Mid = RNG. Far = Lose. Against pre rework i think it was unless you screw cover play you win.
Just in case, we are talking about Optimal engagement range when fighting against Kar98.

5- Conscripts are support units just like they were when maxims reign. You are not telling me anything new. We will see if the Penal nerf and change to satchel will make people go back into 3/5 con strats or try to mix 2 cons/penals.

6- Near range is at 8 (using Cruzz chart). If current Pio can win at point blank, they will still win at 8 range.

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He is talking about 10 range DPS from Mosin. 3.43 vs 2.52 Roughly ±36%.If you account for the slight overkill it's barely 30%.

@Vipper just in case cause i re-read what i wrote. I agree on keeping basically the same DPS values which means reducing the 10 range DPS and increasing the long range UNLESS that's the whole point of the new Conscripts of been more effective at close range.
What i don't agree, at least at the moment, that this is a problematic situation BEFORE WE CAN EVEN SEE the changes been implemented.

Maybe I'm missing something but where is that 140% buff?

You are looking at PPshs that are actually nerfed. Check the Mosin at range 10.

mosin_nagant_rifle_conscript_mp--3.44--2.52--1.96--1.22
Patch
mosin_nagant_rifle_conscript_mp--3.43--3.43--2.12--1.10

1- Then why bring Volks Kar into the discussion when they have already been like that since rework and have a completely different early game unit interaction.

I was responding to your argument that overkill factor is important and pointed out that exactly the same applies to VGs (with out ST44).

From what i can remember cons openings have fallen in disgrace against OKW since either Maxim spam and now Penals have been meta and against OH, it was basically an RNG duel or whoever screwed cover play. Either Cons snap a gren model (either through target prioritisation or luck) or Grens killed models faster. This is why i say that even if they have practically the same DPS other than 10 range exactly, the dinamic is gonna be different.

Casualties become more RNG the sorter the fight so generally when cover is not involved and range are close. In the live version they become RNG because people tend to ourah conscript and fight at close range, something that will do even more at the patch.

If the patch kept mosins DPS curve exactly the same but lowered damage and increased accuracy the dynamic would probably be different.

And I feel the need to point out that I have suggested several times in turning the conscripts into a defensive infantry better suited for fighting in cover and Penal into an aggressive infantry better suited for charging the enemy.

2- People spammed hoorah when it was 5muni and you could rush buildings in the game. Try to keep spamming hoorah at every single engagement and you are gonna be dry of it. You also lose your 50% dps while running.

And now they will more reason to do so since the optimum range for fight will be 10. And that will force Ostheer either in HMG spam or the 3 g43 doctrines.

Using ourah make lose 100% DPS because units do not fire actually.

3- Doctrinal weapon upgrade + hoorah + molotov. This is what you are telling me will defeat easily Grens? They are still gonna have the most obvious wind up throw animation. If there's an issue is in vet 3 with PPSH vs Grens late game. But then again same concept could be said about G43.

Actually it going to attrition that will beat grenadiers since they around x150% more.

4- Makes sense for you. Conscript match up against Grens was always like: Cons close = win. Mid = RNG. Far = Lose. Against pre rework i think it was unless you screw cover play you win.
Just in case, we are talking about Optimal engagement range when fighting against Kar98.

Conscript do not have to "win" engagement due to the bleed factor. Delaying Ostheer teching is a "win" on its own for Soviets.

6- Near range is at 8 (using Cruzz chart). If current Pio can win at point blank, they will still win at 8 range.

True

@Vipper just in case cause i re-read what i wrote. I agree on keeping basically the same DPS values which means reducing the 10 range DPS and increasing the long range UNLESS that's the whole point of the new Conscripts of been more effective at close range.

That is part of the problem with patches, they do not explain what actually goal of each change is and how they aim to achieve it.

What i don't agree, at least at the moment, that this is a problematic situation BEFORE WE CAN EVEN SEE the changes been implemented.

I think we both have enough ingame experience to spot incoming problems before they appear. I also think that this issues should raised ASP since Relic seemed to have ignore many many warning about incoming problems. The fact that ver 1.1 has been already released is promising sing, the fact that it they have moved to ver 1.1 even before testing is an indication that there is nothing wrong with finding problems (like the panther) before actually testing the mod.

I am posted pages and pages of warnings about the redesign of Penals, the USF mortar, the VG ST44, the ability to decrew USF artillery pieces yet we had to go thru months and years of broken things before they could be fixed. I would not insist so much if patch where coming every month or 2 but if the game become broken for another 8 months it will probably die.

In the end of day the I have provided the number for what this changes mean and separately give "my" analysis as many others have done. People who don't like my analysis can simply not read.

Wait Vipper, how you can explaine this (Conscript do not have to "win" engagement due to the bleed factor. Delaying Ostheer teching is a "win" on its own for Soviets. )
So 2 untis that cost same but one have this shit argument, waht about another ? why same price untis have differents numbers of kills ?

I have strong believe that Vipper should recieve some love to SOv buff

Wait Vipper, how you can explaine this (Conscript do not have to "win" engagement due to the bleed factor. Delaying Ostheer teching is a "win" on its own for Soviets. )
So 2 untis that cost same but one have this shit argument, waht about another ? why same price untis have differents numbers of kills ?

Because soviet have a much wider variety and far more cost effective doctrinal options.

Teching is essential to Ostheer and there very few low tech options for Ostheer.

Soviet have plethora of low tech option (like "lend lease" to be replaced by KV-1 after this patch)

And because grenadier have to kill 3 conscript models for every 2 they lose just to keep even.

Soo...than conscript are cheaper...but better??

so now all allie factions gets better standart infantery than on axis side?

yeah....why not? Since allie get all the nice TDs, axis armor was nerfed, Anti tank was nerfed on axis side...not really good anti infantery blob tools...axis seems a little bit weak now