December Balance Preview

I miss the improved dps, you reduced moving accuracy and increased scatter, and less than a second of reload difference should mean improved dps ?
Nah you just straight up nerfed it.
Further add that okw one will still cost 25 more fuel apparently...and only got nerfs because is "the best nondoc vehicle" (you know how much people laughed at this ?)

My misunderstanding then. I thought you were referring to the OST Panther.

OKW Panther has better accuracy than OST Panther. It always had and it will still have better accuracy than the OST Panther; it fact it has the best accuracy in live game, if you know how to use it. It also has better MGs than the OST Panther. The OKW Panther is straight up the best generalist tank in the game in live with no reservations.

Ideally OKW Panther fuel price should drop (to ~185-ish, like the Comet). However, OKW repairs, OKW Combat Blitz and Panther Vet4 should also be further reduced, as we're not even halfway towards what should be considered mainline.

OKW Panther has never had any real downsides that people usually associate with the OST Panther. They are two completely different vehicles.

A good start would be: choose an intended role.

To stay construcitve. This statement should be noticed.

The current and the patched Panther lack a true role.

1) It is supposed to chase tanks but also needs to stop to hit things,

2) it's supposed to be quite survivable but not be survivable against most anti tank and tds (thus the armor vet nerf),

3) it's suppsoed to counter heavies with the penetration but now also be able to fire faster.

This doesn't make sense. Those are all contradictions.

Either make it 60 range, expensive with the survivability of a medium or make it a generalist tank with survivability and the ability to tackle infantry. What we have currently and what we are getting in the patch notes is a vehicle that fulfills no task and thus isn't worth the teching.

My misunderstanding then. I thought you were referring to the OST Panther.

OKW Panther has better accuracy than OST Panther. It always had and it will still have better accuracy than the OST Panther. It also has better MGs than the OST Panther. The OKW Panther is straight up the best generalist tank in the game in live.

Ideally OKW Panther fuel price should drop. However, OKW repairs and OKW Combat Blitz should also be further reduced, as we're not even halfway towards what should be considered mainline.

OKW Panther has never had any real downsides that people usually associate with the OST Panther. They are two completely different vehicles.

I was talking of both at different parts of my post, sorry for not being clear.

Ost panther: It will miss a lot, miss terribly like it does now.
Dps improved but merely changed at all anyway, while the overarmored brick is a little less armored.

Okw panther: I was aware of it (accuracy, mg...), I wasn't aware of price decrease.
It will still miss terribly, especially with scatter and accuracy.
In live is still far from being reliable, with terrible rof, while being ultra expensive.
Now it has even lost its better accuracy, which will make okw panther just as unreliable as ost panther.
The mg may drop models but that doesn't mean that is a generalist honestly.
1) you ACTUALLY PAY for that anri infantry dps, I don't get how it should lose some at reliability because of a single upgrade totally unrelated to the initial cost.
A non upgraded panther can't do anything to infantry
2) it is far from killing infantry reliably, it has a lower dps against infantry compared even to the cheapest generalist and most light vehicles anyway..

Okw panther: I was aware of it (accuracy, mg...), I wasn't aware of price decrease.
It will still miss terribly,

I don't know what mode you play and what level you are in that mode. However I have a feeling you are not "microing" your OKW Panthers properly.

The proper way to micro the Panther is to activate Combat Blitz and make sure you keep moving. It will never miss that way.

I'm not being sarcastic here. I'm actually serious. OKW Panther is 30% more accurate when moving than when it's not moving. That's on top of SU-85+ baseline level accuracy.

Similar such magick feats also occur with all OKW vehicles that have Combat Blitz, except for the Ostwind.

The accuracy nerfs on the Panther mainly aim to address the ridiculouslness of that issue.

OST Panther and Comet are a low-micro units. OKW Panther is a no-micro unit.

Post-patch, OST Panther main focus will be firing more frequently, whereas OKW Panther will hit more accurately and have better MGs while being more expensive.

FRP changes are poorly implemented with all these cooldowns and nerfs. One of the things i like about FRP is on big maps without it, games just become long and dull thought it is unfair only some factions have FRP so cant FRP be an option for all factions? Also out of all the factions it seems OKW FRP has been specifically targeted

There's no other way to implement this without cooldowns. Otherwise serious resource-cheating abuse can occur.

OKW did lose their early FRP, but they did gain smoke on their LeIGs. That should be more than even.

To stay construcitve. This statement should be noticed.

The current and the patched Panther lack a true role.

1) It is supposed to chase tanks but also needs to stop to hit things,

2) it's supposed to be quite survivable but not be survivable against most anti tank and tds (thus the armor vet nerf),

3) it's suppsoed to counter heavies with the penetration but now also be able to fire faster.

This doesn't make sense. Those are all contradictions.

Either make it 60 range, expensive with the survivability of a medium or make it a generalist tank with survivability and the ability to tackle infantry. What we have currently and what we are getting in the patch notes is a vehicle that fulfills no task and thus isn't worth the teching.

To @Mr.Smith too

Please note that generalist = AOE for main gun
Also IMHO
0) axis doesn't need another AI vehicle
1) axis have enough defensive TD
2) axis lack offensive TD
3) the panther turretted deisign is perfect for an offensive vehicle
4) if panther has to stay somewhat armored (which doesn't imply 320 USS enterprise armor + vet 2 force shield bonus) 50 and 60 range will ALWAYS be broken, as either panther will be OP or UP and won't hit shit so it can't counter is supposed counter unit (FF, JACK, SU)
5) if it can't counter TD (would broke a lot of things indeed) the best role is medium counter, aka fast firing and accurate (even on the move), but will lose some armor, range, and penetration.

The advantage of making panther an anti mediums are
1) It opens a WORLD of strategies based on mobility and flanking
2) jackson and FF and Su will be able to target panther with 15-20 range of distance from panther maximum range
3) because of point 2 panther gunner doesn't need to be blind
4) stug/jadgpanzer 4 loses rof for penetration and damage, no more stug spam as most effective units, those casamate TD will get 60 range to counter allies TD and heavies, like FF, Jackson and su.

..............

"1) It is supposed to chase tanks but also needs to stop to hit things,

2) it's supposed to be quite survivable but not be survivable against most anti tank and tds (thus the armor vet nerf),

3) it's suppsoed to counter heavies with the penetration but now also be able to fire faster.

This doesn't make sense. Those are all contradictions."
Exactly

To @Mr.Smith too

Please note that generalist = AOE for main gun

No.

Generalist = can mess up infantry really badly.

Specialist = Jackson, SU85, Stug

If you replace Panther MGs with Firefly-level DPS, then yes; Panther would become a specialist.

By buying a Panther you get the DPS of an entire Vet3 LMG-grenadier squad on top of a high-armour unit. Are you implying that this DPS counts for nothing?

No.

Generalist = can mess up infantry really badly.

Specialist = Jackson, SU85, Stug

Yet panther needs 60 muni to do it, otherwise is helpless against infantry.
Is FF helpless against tanks without tulips ?

Well I don't mind at all, believe me.

Could you AT LEAST, take a look at the rest of the post ?..next patch may even make mg's disappear for what I care..

The advantage of making panther an anti mediums are
1) It opens a WORLD of strategies based on mobility and flanking
2) jackson and FF and Su will be able to target panther with 15-20 range of distance from panther maximum range
3) because of point 2 panther gunner doesn't need to be blind
4) stug/jadgpanzer 4 loses rof for penetration and damage, no more stug spam as most effective units, those casamate TD will get 60 range to counter allies TD and heavies, like FF, Jackson and su.

It might eventually work. However I don't think that the end result will be interesting.

If you're making the Panther into some kind of a medium tank hardcounter allies will just go "fuck it" and never invest in medium tanks. That means there's never going to be absolutely anybody interested in doing flanks vs axis heavy armour, which has been a mainstay of the CoH franchise.

Instead, what you're going to get is TD spam vs Panthers, which will be the inverse of Heavy TDs vs allied mediums that you see in teamgames; only that you're going to see the same tired shit in every game and every mode, and in every faction match-up. It won't even matter whether you're playing Brits or USF or Soviets; you've have to get that TD to counter the OKW/OST Panther.

OKW Panther is better suited for hunting mediums; but then again JP4 is also pretty good vs mediums. OST already has Stug for that job, and the new Panther will make it a bit better vs heavies too.

If you doubt this, I'd recommend that you queue up for 4v4 Redball Express immediately. That should give you a good insight as to how boring the game can get if it devolves into a specialist-vs-specialist type of warfare.

By buying a Panther you get the DPS of an entire LMG-grenadier squad on top of a high-armour unit. Are you implying that this DPS counts for nothing?

I guess nobody ever teched up to tier4 and build a Panther just to get the "DPS of a LMG Gren squad." Its nonsense.
Just look at all of the other tanks in the game. They can wipe squads with their main gun in a matter of shots. Cromwells, Comets, T34 (both versions), Shermans (all versions), P4s, etc.

I guess nobody ever teched up to tier4 and build a Panther just to get the "DPS of a LMG Gren squad."

Just make OST T4 cheaper and the problem you mentioned is gone. No?

It might eventually work. However I don't think that the end result will be interesting.

If you're making the Panther into some kind of a medium tank hardcounter allies will just go "fuck it" and never invest in medium tanks. That means there's never going to be absolutely anybody interested in doing flanks vs axis heavy armour, which has been a mainstay of the CoH franchise.

Instead, what you're going to get is TD spam vs Panthers, which will be the inverse of Heavy TDs vs allied mediums that you see in teamgames; only that you're going to see the same tired shit in every game and every mode, and in every faction match-up. It won't even matter whether you're playing Brits or USF or Soviets; you've have to get that TD to counter the OKW/OST Panther.

OKW Panther is better suited for hunting mediums; but then again JP4 is also pretty good vs mediums. OST already has Stug for that job, and the new Panther will make it a bit better vs heavies too.

If you doubt this, I'd recommend that you queue up for 4v4 Redball Express immediately. That should give you a good insight as to how boring the game can get if it devolves into a specialist-vs-specialist type of warfare.

OBVIOUSLY that should go live with other changes (mainly a simple TSize set of changes). And you should consider that:
1) casamate TD softcounter allies TD, so spamming those will be risky (it isn't as one sided as stug/jadg vs allies TD).
2) panther is now a good flanker nontheless, isn't THAT helpless against TD at all
3) but panther isn't that strong against mediums at the same time, because nerfed armor will make sure mediums can return fire reliably, so in an average allies flank with more than 2 armor (ez8, t34-85) or numerous t34, sherman, that can easily outdps panther if this can't keep range and get mine/at/faust support.
4) I would nerf stug to jadgpanzer 4 mobility as incentive to flanking nontheless

Just make OST T4 cheaper and the problem you mentioned is gone. No?

OK Mr smith i generally concord with your changes but here we are arguing about facts and what we see, do you see a price reduction to tier 4 in the DBP ? If not that means that no one will use the panther
you could reduce the range and buff the accuracy both standing and moving so it's more like a close and personal tank hunter and not the drunk sniper that is now
edit : or even more make it that it has 50 range while immobile and 45 while moving so you can juggle with stats of the weapons

I’m dumbfounded on how the OST panther presents more of a problem in this game than the British sim city, and demo charges. How those are not being addressed. Especially sim city that is the cancer of the game. But no, a tank that requires to be foward facing with all 3 MGs firing at infantry up close to be semi effective, is the real problem here.

That puts out the DPS of an LMG gren squad,(something tells me we are not putting into consideration the vet infantry has by the time a panther comes out/yellow cover that plagues the battlefield) tho it’s not wiping with its main cannon like we see with various other tanks, it’s stilll a problem that needs to be fixed. Because the fellas in 4v4 can spam it. so we will make it even more rare in 2s, comparable to Waldo/Walt Disney in 1s. But thank god we fixed 4s.

Let’s not address alien technology that makes a sandbag pit virtually indestructible, meanwhile can self repair with a simple push of a button (alone with half the other commander abilities the British have)

Let’s not address the fact that on some maps emplacements are virtually untouchable and can cover 75% of the field. But nope. Personally I hardly built panthers because they are shit compared to stugs who out gun them, and brumbars are the only thing to punish murderous infantry blobbs that currently plague this game.

Hate to say it, if the balance team knew what they were doing OR if relic let them do what they need to do, we wouldn’t need a December patch. We would have been done by now patching the game

The Panther has always performed as a generalist tank vs Brits, and will perform even better in that role now that Tulip stun is gone

That's not in the notes. It only regards to "Tulips no longer cancels move commands upon stun when hit" and that just sounds like once you get stunned your move commands you've qued are no longer canceled. Maybe I'm wrong though.

I’m dumbfounded on how the OST panther presents more of a problem in this game than the British sim city, and demo charges. How those are not being addressed. Especially sim city that is the cancer of the game. But no, a tank that requires to be foward facing with all 3 MGs firing at infantry up close to be semi effective, is the real problem here.

That puts out the DPS of an LMG gren squad,(something tells me we are not putting into consideration the vet infantry has by the time a panther comes out/yellow cover that plagues the battlefield) tho it’s not wiping with its main cannon like we see with various other tanks, it’s stilll a problem that needs to be fixed. Because the fellas in 4v4 can spam it. so we will make it even more rare in 2s, comparable to Waldo/Walt Disney in 1s. But thank god we fixed 4s.

Let’s not address alien technology that makes a sandbag pit virtually indestructible, meanwhile can self repair with a simple push of a button (alone with half the other commander abilities the British have)

Let’s not address the fact that on some maps emplacements are virtually untouchable and can cover 75% of the field. But nope. Personally I hardly built panthers because they are shit compared to stugs who out gun them, and brumbars are the only thing to punish murderous infantry blobbs that currently plague this game.

Hate to say it, if the balance team knew what they were doing OR if relic let them do what they need to do, we wouldn’t need a December patch. We would have been done by now patching the game

You know, i dont know play you game in 2013, but i remember how "skill" ostherer players (like Butcher,Sully) spam panthers 24/7, i dont remeber post from them, that panther need fix, all i remember l2p. I guess times changes, like sides, thats why so many problems. Changes in paper its one, changes in game its another story, problem can be not win panther but with t4 or synergy. LEts look in past, players talk maxim nerf is good, now maxim are balanced adn waht we get in live ? Broken unit.

You know, i dont know play you game in 2013, but i remember how "skill" ostherer players (like Butcher,Sully) spam panthers 24/7, i dont remeber post from them, that panther need fix, all i remember l2p. I guess times changes, like sides, thats why so many problems. Changes in paper its one, changes in game its another story, problem can be not win panther but with t4 or synergy. LEts look in past, players talk maxim nerf is good, now maxim are balanced adn waht we get in live ? Broken unit.

Thanks for the history lesson here. But that legit has nothing to do with what’s happening now.

Lol, we finally get a balance patch and people are already bitching about the changes before we even have a chance to test the preview. Can't we all just enjoy the glow of a not-dead game for 5 seconds first?

On discussion, I'm kind of disheartened to see that the Call-In price premium and Anti-Air standardization hasn't made it in yet. I can't believe people down-voted those changes that hard because they make perfect sense IMO. Do people really enjoy having to slug it out against someone they have been dominating all game just because they stalled for M10 Spam, Tigers or IS2? Fixing Call-Ins also by default makes other commanders more attractive too.

"That puts out the DPS of an LMG gren squad,(something tells me we are not putting into consideration the vet infantry has by the time a panther comes out/yellow cover that plagues the battlefield) tho it’s not wiping with its main cannon like we see with various other tanks, it’s stilll a problem that needs to be fixed. Because the fellas in 4v4 can spam it. so we will make it even more rare in 2s, comparable to Waldo/Walt Disney in 1s. But thank god we fixed 4s."
This+1

1) that dps is barely consistant when low RA squads hit the field, and still paid 60 muni. Other tanks get good mg dps AS WELL AS aoe, especially t34
2) Again priority is teamgames, but when teamgames are fixed 1vs1 and 2vs2 are broken and vice versa, mod team has to aknowledge the issue given by resource inflation in big modes.

That's not in the notes. It only regards to "Tulips no longer cancels move commands upon stun when hit" and that just sounds like once you get stunned your move commands you've qued are no longer canceled. Maybe I'm wrong though.

Tulip changes are the same from FBP, just badly worded:
- Stun changed to -75% speed penalty

On discussion, I'm kind of disheartened to see that the Call-In price premium and Anti-Air standardization hasn't made it in yet. I can't believe people down-voted those changes that hard because they make perfect sense IMO. Do people really enjoy having to slug it out against someone they have been dominating all game just because they stalled for M10 Spam, Tigers or IS2? Fixing Call-Ins also by default makes other commanders more attractive too.

Anti-air is still in. Just missing in the notes.

As for call-ins, we can at least try to think of ways to make the revamped doctrines competitive with call-in doctrines. That way, there can, at least, be some variety for 1v1.

Tulip changes are the same from FBP, just badly worded:
- Stun changed to -75% speed penalty

Thank you your clarification.