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December Balance Preview

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Mr.Smith
31 Oct 2017, 09:49 AM
#81
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2017, 09:46 AMEsxile
But isn't it going to make flamthrower too good vs garrisoned units? Same question for any type of bundle grenade that can wipe wooden houses in one stroke.


Hopefully Relic will revert anti-building grenade damage to original levels, so that you can't use grenades to level them. Flamethrowers we'll see.

You can still survive a building collapse btw. The first few guys will still come out instantly, so your entire squad won't get wiped. It's mostly larger squads that will have part of their squad die with the building.
You have a great idea that improves the QoL aspects of the game? Please, drop your idea here:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/57860/some-qol-suggestions

Check out Cruzz's DPS calculator:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7gwy65JLbSRMEJ3M2ZPandMMW8/view?usp=sharing
(Download the file, open it with your browser)
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Osinyagov
31 Oct 2017, 09:54 AM
#82
avatar of Osinyagov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 1389 | Subs: 1

Dear Balance team!

I have one small question - under proper unit icon for KV-8 you mean icon from gamefiles or from QoL thread? Icon from gamefiles looks to similar with KV-1, and icon from QoL thread helps to standardize flamethrower call-ins in general (they should have fire icon on them like flamepanzer 38t)

From gamefiles


From QoL thread

alliesalliesNumeral Veterancy Descriptions - Russian Localization Modaxisaxis

alliesalliesThread with UI suggestions for live version of the gameaxisaxis

sovietssovietsThread with adjusted commander portraitsostheerostheer
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zarok47
31 Oct 2017, 09:56 AM
#83
avatar of zarok47

Posts: 587

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2017, 09:09 AMMr.Smith

The Panther, at its core, is a low micro generalist unit with high durability and good range and fast speed that can threaten all tank types and infantry. If you can't see why also having pinpoint accuracy on top of that will be an issue, I can't help you.


Have you ever compared the panthers AI capabilities to the following units: EZ8, Pershing, Tiger, comet, cromwel, and heck even a p4?

On what basis do you judge the panther to belong in that list?

Is the su-76 a generalist aswell, seeing as it has AI capabilties with barrage and crush?
Same for the Stug and the Brumbar?

I'm trying very hard to be polite here, but this claim seems ludicrous to me, same as the claim the panther is " more or less good in the first place".

Gonne love the maxim changes tho.
jump backJump back to quoted post20 May 2018, 15:21 PMFelixTHM

Being bad at the game isn't something balance patches can fix.
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__deleted__
31 Oct 2017, 10:00 AM
#84
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7

Guys focus more on QoL changes and both on panther vet2 decrease. There are many great changes naming:
-USF officers no longer cost arm and leg to reinforce
-demos no longer deal double damage when detonated by another explosion
-allied AT guns no longer move like slowpoke through cover
- now you can attack dushka and USF hmg with attack move command
- bofors is no longer abusable, unit must stay in in order to perform whole suppressive barrage
- Toggle fire options now work properly
- Lieutenant + Riflemen combo now can throw names even if you have selected both of these squads
- ...
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Cardboard Tank
31 Oct 2017, 10:02 AM
#85
avatar of Cardboard Tank

Posts: 978

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2017, 09:56 AMzarok47


Have you ever compared the panthers AI capabilities to the following units: EZ8, Pershing, Tiger, comet, cromwel, and heck even a p4?

On what basis do you judge the panther to belong in that list?

Is the su-76 a generalist aswell, seeing as it has AI capabilties with barrage and crush?
Same for the Stug and the Brumbar?

I'm trying very hard to be polite here, but this claim seems ludicrous to me, same as the claim the panther is " more or less good in the first place".

Gonne love the maxim changes tho.
As others have stated. Mr. Smith has no clue and can not accept good Wehr lategame.
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Mr.Smith
31 Oct 2017, 10:08 AM
#86
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2017, 09:56 AMzarok47


Have you ever compared the panthers AI capabilities to the following units: EZ8, Pershing, Tiger, comet, cromwel, and heck even a p4?

On what basis do you judge the panther to belong in that list?


The Panther has much better AT than the forementioned units, but worse AI. Panther MGs are no joke and can cause a lot of bleed. Depending on the terrain, and also given that Panther AI doesn't care about elevation, Panther can deal more AI output than the Comet.

That's also taking into account that the Panther can offer engage units that don't have AT capabilities (e.g., Penals, Tommies and doctrinal USF infantry).

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2017, 09:56 AMzarok47

I'm trying very hard to be polite here, but this claim seems ludicrous to me, same as the claim the panther is " more or less good in the first place".


"More or less in a good place" is Relic-speak for "We don't consider OST Panther to be too OP".

The context comes from the secondary focus statement that "Adjustments to select heavy tanks that are currently over performing in team games". Therefore the "good place" refers to the fact that the OST Panther doesn't belong to late-game overperforming armour.

You have a great idea that improves the QoL aspects of the game? Please, drop your idea here:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/57860/some-qol-suggestions

Check out Cruzz's DPS calculator:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7gwy65JLbSRMEJ3M2ZPandMMW8/view?usp=sharing
(Download the file, open it with your browser)
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Esxile
31 Oct 2017, 10:10 AM
#87
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2017, 08:56 AMjagd wölfe
...


jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2017, 09:45 AMButcher
...


Panther's problem is the meta. The panther will never be the best counter to Jackson, FF or SU-85 (because they are supposed to counter the panther) but Cromwell, Shermans and T34/85 + Pershing, IS-2, Comet, ISU and all Churchill variante. If you see a Firefly and decide to build a panther, you're wrong from the start.

So why it is a meta problem, simply because in teamgame nobody build in number what the panther is supposed to counter but stuff to counter the panther because they know the panther is coming. IMO, the panther is simply too good and at the same time too bad because it forces your opponent to safely invest in counters even before it hits the field. This is also why you don't see it on 1vs1, there is not enough tanks to make it relevant, you do not build a Panther to counter one sherman.

There is also the possibility to call a KT or ST from your OKW mate that force Allied player to over-invest in tank destroyer and thus make the panther irrelevant.

Finally Ostheer have a lot overlaping units. Stug + Tiger + Panthers are completing some of the same functions, add a dual pak wall and the panther is not really required.


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Beinhard
31 Oct 2017, 10:16 AM
#88
avatar of Beinhard

Posts: 161

Good changes for the OKW and Wehr Panther, better git guud now axis fanbois.

Will there be any preview for the mod?












Playercard of Beinhard

4v4: Pstreak: + 3with Zansibar, Crashh, & Validuz
3v3: Pstreak: + 1with Crashh, & Validuz
3v3: Pstreak: + 2with Crashh, & Validuz


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zarok47
31 Oct 2017, 10:19 AM
#89
avatar of zarok47

Posts: 587

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2017, 10:08 AMMr.Smith


The Panther has much better AT than the forementioned units, but worse AI. Panther MGs are no joke and can cause a lot of bleed. Depending on the terrain, and also given that Panther AI doesn't care about elevation, Panther can deal more AI output than the Comet.

That's also taking into account that the Panther can offer engage units that don't have AT capabilities (e.g., Penals, Tommies and doctrinal USF infantry).



"More or less in a good place" is Relic-speak for "We don't consider OST Panther to be too OP".

The context comes from the secondary focus statement that "Adjustments to select heavy tanks that are currently over performing in team games". Therefore the "good place" refers to the fact that the OST Panther doesn't belong to late-game overperforming armour.


To repeat myself here:
Is the su-76 a generalist aswell, seeing as it has AI capabilties with barrage and crush?
Same for the Stug and the Brumbar?

Secondly, the panther can have more AI capabilities than the comet?

Panther needs to be stationary, shooting at infantry out of cover and quite close to the panther.
The comet needs to shoot once at a 4 man squad at max range with a change of a lovely instagib.
And to top that off, it has a lovely vet 1 AI capabilities to hurt infantry even more.
How is this even in the same ballpark?

jump backJump back to quoted post20 May 2018, 15:21 PMFelixTHM

Being bad at the game isn't something balance patches can fix.
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Mr.Smith
31 Oct 2017, 10:29 AM
#90
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2017, 10:19 AMzarok47

Panther needs to be stationary, shooting at infantry out of cover and quite close to the panther.
The comet needs to shoot once at a 4 man squad at max range with a change of a lovely instagib.


Squad formations have been reworked, and you would be amazed at how well those 4-men squads can spread out, or how fast they can exit garrisons.

The Panther is more durable than the Comet and has better AT. The patch doesn't change that. The Comet has to nagivate around 18-range panzerfaust. Panther has to worry about 15-range AT nades only from certain select squads.

Nobody reasonable ever complained why Conscript DPS doesn't equal Grenadier DPS (because grenadiers are squishier), so I don't get why people get so hung up with the Panther.
You have a great idea that improves the QoL aspects of the game? Please, drop your idea here:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/57860/some-qol-suggestions

Check out Cruzz's DPS calculator:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7gwy65JLbSRMEJ3M2ZPandMMW8/view?usp=sharing
(Download the file, open it with your browser)
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The amazing Chandler
31 Oct 2017, 10:37 AM
#91
avatar of The amazing Chandler

Posts: 1355

People saying that they don't see Panthers in 1vs1.
Just watch some casts from Imperial Dane, he has lots of them (videos and videos with Panthers, OST and OKW)...
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Intelligence209
31 Oct 2017, 10:53 AM
#92
avatar of Intelligence209

Posts: 1124

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2017, 10:08 AMMr.Smith


The Panther has much better AT than the forementioned units, but worse AI. Panther MGs are no joke and can cause a lot of bleed. Depending on the terrain, and also given that Panther AI doesn't care about elevation, Panther can deal more AI output than the Comet.

That's also taking into account that the Panther can offer engage units that don't have AT capabilities (e.g., Penals, Tommies and doctrinal USF infantry).



"More or less in a good place" is Relic-speak for "We don't consider OST Panther to be too OP".

The context comes from the secondary focus statement that "Adjustments to select heavy tanks that are currently over performing in team games". Therefore the "good place" refers to the fact that the OST Panther doesn't belong to late-game overperforming armour.



You do realize there is such thing as a 2v2 right? Quit jumping from 1s to 4s. Your statements are in a vaccume/perfect world. You and the balance team/relic is making a fool of yourself with the panther changes and yet you guys seem to think that because your the ones with the key that you guys are correct.

With the threat of snares that lingers in 2v2s, there is no such thing as panthers chasing down heavy TDs and finishing the job unless the player is serverly outplayed. Go ahead an name all the units that don’t have snares, this isn’t a vaccume type of game.

You forget the amount of allied infantry there is late game with yellow cover? You know damn well that’s a 4v4 change that is going to effect 2s. Not asking for a comet spam type tank, we was simply asking for a damn accuracy buff. So that atrocious reload time at least lands a damn shot when we are supossibly “hunting down tanks” you know the tanks that generally outrange or can self spot the panther.

Iv said it before, simplicity is key here, you guys are changing the whole game again, and now your opening up a rabbit hole with the commander changes. Haven’t we learned anything from all the previous patches?
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jagd wölfe
31 Oct 2017, 10:56 AM
#93
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2017, 09:09 AMMr.Smith


That's because we had something called Comet spam that was ruining the game for 1.5 years, and we're not going to add Panther spam to replace Comet spam.

The Panther, at its core, is a low micro generalist unit with high durability and good range and fast speed that can threaten all tank types and infantry. If you can't see why also having pinpoint accuracy on top of that will be an issue, I can't help you.

Comet spam was addressed just fine with moving accuracy changes and popcap changes (neither OP nor UP), and it will remain the same for the Panther, given the buffs it has received.

The main issue remaining for OST Panther, imo, is T4 teching cost.



Panther as generalist unit is BS..., the main damage dealer is paid pintle mg, that BARELY manage to drop some models.
Comet was a generalist because it had AOE that can actually kill infantry.
Panther is much less than a generalist than anything else including su76m, except jackson, we can say it is as much of a generalist as firefly...
Comet spam was because it actually had better mobility, firepower..and was a true generalist with free blitz and no brainer upgrade commander.
There are several ways to balance it, from reducing base armor to a complete overhaul

"Problem with OST panther is teching"
Of course, ignore feedback.
The panther HAS NO ROLE EVER, it's just an overarmored brick...
https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198119448887

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2021, 07:47 AMKatitof

They certainly hide from me.
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Mr.Smith
31 Oct 2017, 10:56 AM
#94
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2017, 10:53 AMIntelligence209

With the threat of snares that lingers in 2v2s


That's where you're wrong.

The Panther has always performed as a generalist tank vs Brits, and will perform even better in that role now that Tulip stun is gone, and Brits will no longer have pre-dug rabbit holes everywhere.

Secondly, Riflemen lost their smoke, so Riflemen is no longer the 1-unit army the Panther has to content with. USF will have to divest in other units, and there will be fewer riflemen with snares running amokk.

Thirdly, Penals lost their snare and Conscripts become squishier with the patch; their main boon is that they hit a lot more reliably. Both units will simply bleed more when a Panther is threatening them.

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2017, 10:56 AMjagd wölfe

The panther HAS NO ROLE EVER, it's just an overarmored brick...


If I get this right is that you're complaining that the Panther has low DPS, yet has too much HP.

Now you get a patch that reduces some of the durability (with Vet), but not the important bits (the health bonus at Vet2 is still there), and increases the DPS.

Yet, without taking the time to even trial the changes you start complaining? If you know precisely which values we should fix, why not spit them out so that we can see them.

Otherwise, I think it's better we go with the testing-and-feedback approach. Don't you think so too?
You have a great idea that improves the QoL aspects of the game? Please, drop your idea here:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/57860/some-qol-suggestions

Check out Cruzz's DPS calculator:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7gwy65JLbSRMEJ3M2ZPandMMW8/view?usp=sharing
(Download the file, open it with your browser)
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Leo251
31 Oct 2017, 11:44 AM
#95
avatar of Leo251

Posts: 311

I´m happy to read notes about an upcoming new patch. But this is probably the worst patch ever.
Ost were bad, now they will be even worst.
Why nerfing an already bad tank as a Panther, and not nerfing other spamable/good tanks: T34/85, Comets, E8s, Regular Shermans, P4s, Cromwells, M4C.
Still 4men squads on Grens.
Brits still with cancer pits. simcity.
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vasa1719
31 Oct 2017, 11:58 AM
#96
avatar of vasa1719

Posts: 2635 | Subs: 4

Permanently Banned
I cannot undestand this buthurt around panther, its not final version, arguments like panther suck vs 2 su-85, jackson, FF are bad, coz this units must countered panther. I like pop cap nerf, coz not first time in 2v2 i see panther spam that counter all, from infatry to tanks. I awlays think that panther must be like support tank wehre you can play around pacs and ifnatry adn vs heavy tanks and middle spam tanks. But not A move spammed unit.
Back to topic, i undesantd right, taht get inside house and leave it units will be need 3 sec ? Garrisoning
* Load time for buildings increased to 1 (per model)
* Max load time increased to 3.25 (entire squad)
* Unload time for buildings increased to 0.5 (per model)

So how its will be work vs heavy nades from PG, obers, commandos ? And vs flamers in m3 or HT ?

Isnt DSHK nerf is to hard ? i whanna repeat how some community members test maxims and what we get after that.
Relic killing our game, lets save COH2 from Relic :snfQuinn::snfPeter::brad::hansREKT::hansGG:
If you're not a ахіs lover when you're 20, you have no heart. If you're not a soviet fanboy by the time you're 30, you have no brain.
Relic delenda est
If Dane will be have son, he will be call him (Sturmgeschütz) :snfBarton:
Brotheres, what we do in coh2, ehoes in eternity
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0ld_Shatterhand
31 Oct 2017, 11:59 AM
#97
avatar of 0ld_Shatterhand
Donator 22

Posts: 194

It all looks great, but to stay realistic, what guarantees do you have, what it doesn't say next week "due to unforeseen circumstances ... has been put on hold indefinitely"?
So what changed in comparison to the Fall Balance Preview on Relics side?
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Jae For Jett
31 Oct 2017, 12:14 PM
#98
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1002 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2017, 10:00 AM__deleted__
Guys focus more on QoL changes and both on panther vet2 decrease. There are many great changes naming:
-USF officers no longer cost arm and leg to reinforce
-demos no longer deal double damage when detonated by another explosion
-allied AT guns no longer move like slowpoke through cover
- now you can attack dushka and USF hmg with attack move command
- bofors is no longer abusable, unit must stay in in order to perform whole suppressive barrage
- Toggle fire options now work properly
- Lieutenant + Riflemen combo now can throw names even if you have selected both of these squads
- ...

But thats fine. The community is giving feedback on changes that they disagree with, and letting the great QOL changes be. The community will continue to discuss the panther changes until they are either altered or until the community is convinced the changes are good and have proper reasoning, which is how it should work.
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Alphrum
31 Oct 2017, 13:14 PM
#99
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 808

Smith just listen please, for now just revert the panther changes, dont nerf it, dont buff it and see how it performs vs the new FF's and jacksons then go from ther.

FRP changes are poorly implemented with all these cooldowns and nerfs. One of the things i like about FRP is on big maps without it, games just become long and dull thought it is unfair only some factions have FRP so cant FRP be an option for all factions? Also out of all the factions it seems OKW FRP has been specifically targeted
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jagd wölfe
31 Oct 2017, 13:32 PM
#100
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2017, 10:56 AMMr.Smith


That's where you're wrong.

The Panther has always performed as a generalist tank vs Brits, and will perform even better in that role now that Tulip stun is gone, and Brits will no longer have pre-dug rabbit holes everywhere.

Secondly, Riflemen lost their smoke, so Riflemen is no longer the 1-unit army the Panther has to content with. USF will have to divest in other units, and there will be fewer riflemen with snares running amokk.

Thirdly, Penals lost their snare and Conscripts become squishier with the patch; their main boon is that they hit a lot more reliably. Both units will simply bleed more when a Panther is threatening them.



If I get this right is that you're complaining that the Panther has low DPS, yet has too much HP.

Now you get a patch that reduces some of the durability (with Vet), but not the important bits (the health bonus at Vet2 is still there), and increases the DPS.

Yet, without taking the time to even trial the changes you start complaining? If you know precisely which values we should fix, why not spit them out so that we can see them.

Otherwise, I think it's better we go with the testing-and-feedback approach. Don't you think so too?

I need to clarify a few things
1) I always tested any mod, including FBP, and DBP will follow
2) I have my idea of an indea rework that could fix a lot of issues related to axis AT armor department BUT I WILL judge changes as I see and test them, evaluate them and eventually give a positive feedback on those as they actually improve balance

"Now you get a patch that reduces some of the durability (with Vet), but not the important bits (the health bonus at Vet2 is still there), and increases the DPS."

I miss the improved dps, you reduced moving accuracy and increased scatter, and less than a second of reload difference should mean improved dps ?
Nah you just straight up nerfed it.
Further add that okw one will still cost 25 more fuel apparently...and only got nerfs because is "the best nondoc vehicle" (you know how much people laughed at this ?)

Regardless of testing, which won't lack, nobody see anything good coming from this change.

A good start would be: choose an intended role.
It would be great if panther gained much more dps, in both high accuracy (and moving accuracy) and rof, but gave up range, penetration and armor, for an anti medium and flanker/tank hunter role, while heavies could be countered by su86-like stug/jpn4..but that's one of the options.

https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198119448887

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2021, 07:47 AMKatitof

They certainly hide from me.
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