December Balance Preview

"Better spacing for 4 man squads

Brit repair speed nerfed, rifles lose smoke, penals worse on the move and less sticky satchels, nerfed firefly, nerfed garrisons, nerfed FRP."


I disagree that these are minor nerfs

The threat of sticky satchels severely hamper the shock value of a 222 or a fast P4 and the luchs (less so). Currently Soviets have their cake and eat it in this regard.

In small game modes rifle smoke negates Osts backbone.

US FRP allows US to maintain relentless pressure on ostheer which needs breathing room to flourish.

The firefly counters all ost armour.

4 man Squad wipes cost you the precious vet whilst 6 man allies squad survive

Garrisons changes help mortars (and ost have a particularly good one)


Meanwhile Ost loses what? 10% armour on a vet 2 panther. I won't comment on OKW as while they clearly have been nerfed a fair bit I have little experience

happy that someone see the whole picture here. people think the only way to improve a unit is by buffing it while sometimes u need to nerf the op stuff of other army.

and the panther loose is vet 2 armor buff yes but it get better reload speed.

Could you provide me with reasonable arguments as to why you think why the proposed Panther changes will cause the Panther to underperform. Also in what way do you think that the changes reduce the performance of the OST Panther, rather than enhance it?

My argumentation is as follows

Live-version vet2 OST Panther is a great unit. It just takes so long to get there, and it's too big of an investment until then.

In the live version, if you've managed to get your OST Panther to Vet2, it's a great unit. It's more than great; Now you're also one breath away from Vet3, where you get a nifty reload bonus. You are probably going to get it now because the Vet2 bonus significantly increases the survivability of the Panther.

The reason is because Vet2 boosts the following stats:
- +10% Armor; that's a relatively minor bonus
- +20% Hitpoints; that's a major bonus, as it now requires 6 penetrating hits to kill your Panther

The HP bonus is always valid and can never be bypassed; regardless of the penetration of enemy weapons, deflection damage, or even if your Panther is facing the wrong way.

Sidenote:
The DBP doesn't remove the major +20% HP bonus. It only removes the minor +10% armor bonus from Vet2

The only problem with OST Panther Vet2 is that it takes some time to get there. That's because:
- The Panther has low DPS (thus, low potential to accumulate veterancy)
- If T3 is not skipped, the Panther comes very late into the game, and has little time to accumulate veterancy
- Worse yet, there is not much time left to use your Vet2 bonuses before the time ends

Thus, in the live game, your Panther will spend most of the time being a meh unit, and very little time being a good unit until the game ends.

To address this, DBP changes the Panther to make it:
- A good unit from the moment it hits the field (upgraded from meh unit)
- Make it remain a good (but not OP) unit from Vet2 onwards

Now, why is the OST Panther meh at Vet0? The most important reason for the Panther being meh is that it comes out too late, if you cannot afford to skip T3. Everything else has gained more vet at this point, and the Panther has a lot to do to catch up.

Secondly, the OST Panther is meh at Vet0 because it has low DPS. The gun has very high penetration, but it fires too slow. Even if you flank a heavy-armoured target with the Panther, there's no pay-off; you're probably now showing your rear armour too, so now you lost your advantage.

How does DBP achieve that? From Vet0 onwards, the Panther now benefits from:
- Faster reload. This improves Panthers DPS vs all targets, from the difficult-to-hit light vehicles, to the trivial-to-hit heavy vehicles
- More consistent reload. This will allow people to use glide-shot micro to improve their chances of hitting.

The latter is crucial since previously, Panther shots could drift up to one second. Even if your micro is on par, you'd have to, sometimes, spend 1 second stationary, seeing your target run away and your momentum diminished.

With tigher reload times, the OST Panther can finally benefit from glide-shots, just like every other tank in the game

Finally, since both buffs take effect from Vet0:

Your OST Panther is now a much better unit during the miserable timeframe between Vet0 and Vet2, where your Panther used to suck.

Moreover, since your Panther hits much more frequently, and more consistently, the veterancy gain speed will improve.

This means that the OST Panther will spend even less time at lower veterancy levels, where it used to suck

The Vet0 buffs do not go away with veterancy. The new Vet2 Panther will still fire faster than the old Vet2 Panther. The Vet0 reload buffs will also stack with the Vet3 bonus.

Finally, no. We don't know if the reload speed bonus will be enough without testing it extensively first. If the reload speed buff is too small, we'll increase it; if it's too big of a buff, we'll decrease it.

So, stay tight and give us feedback based on your in-game experiences with the new Panther

Now, repeat after me:
- The big #1 reason why Panther sucks in 1v1 is almost exclusively because of teching cost, and teching synergy in OST
- It is completely absurd to expect the Panther to be fixed without fixing teching costs. Otherwise we're just breaking the late-game

At vet 2 do we still get the cool visual armoured plate skirts?
I guess these changes could work but regarding the OKW panther it didn't get the reload buff? it got a straight nerf and no price decrease to compensate? it still costs 200 fuel that's ridiculous. Combat blitz was also nerfed and no price decrease?

Absolutely hate the patch! No BUFFS as USUAL for OKW and OST. Soviets get ISU 152 buffs but at the same time Jagdtiger gets nerfed out of existence. Without engine upgrade it will take 1-1.5 mins. on big maps to get to the front. No idea why Jackson is being buffed, it was already rather OP, particularly with bulletins. The main weapon for protecting JP4 and Jagtiger the panther is totally dead.
Ranting a bit about german nerfs but relic SUCKS!
Still like the changes to Leig, penals (mines, conscript AT package and Penal changes.
Wandering as USUAL why no new maps??????
Relic have bad habit of nerfing something OP to UP and buffing its counter.
Still hope this isn't final patch

How ISU buff change that fact, that ele and JT counter it ? How JT nerf make ISU more better ?

Since brit was patched in this game all allie faction get a enourmous buffes to their TDs

Since this ost has not single compareable nondoc TD or compareable heavy.

ost feels like stand still vanilla patches with their tanks...but wait...their elefant and tiger was nerfed...so they weaker than before...expacilly in endgame. 2 fireflys / 2 su85 destroys stugs with no problems...

I believe I know why Lelic chose to nerf the Panthers. Because of team games, because more people play team games, and therefore more people weighed in on the balance patch with feedback.

Panthers are insanely good in team games. By minute 25-30 a decent-strength tank company of Panthers is able to roam the field and quickly respond to threats, can easily back away for repairs, dive on demand to get arty kills, and harrass the map self-sufficiently.

People forget there is no way to counter a Panther 1 on 1 for Allies. Cost for cost, there shouldn't be a way anyway; but this does have some implications.

Jacksons and Fireflies cannot kite without supporting units (or a TD + meatshield combo). Either way you either depend on slow infantry units / AT guns, or resource superiority. And if you have a TD and a meatshield, the Axis player will have two Panthers soon, etc.

Whether this means they should be nerfed or not - that's not for me to say, and depends on how much priority you put on team games.

But then again, these same games also had the Elefant / Jagdtiger dominance so maybe we are not getting the full picture. Not gonna lie, I worry about the 640HP Jackson.

we feel the OST Panther is more or less in a good spot.

So, I guess by this logic, that the Panzer IV is now slightly OP, as it is quite similar in cost to the other medium tanks, and only decently outmatched by them. That sounds fishy to me, let's increase its cost a bit...

P.S.:

The Jackson has received a slight buff to its health.

from 480 to 640

Wow, I don't even have a shitty picture for that anymore. What's gonna happen next? Some more range? "Urgh blurb we feel that the Jackson doesn't quite fulfil its role as a tank hunter, so we raised its damage output a wee bit. Damage from x to 348792347891234678934256789234."

Try posting something constructive.

I am not a pro and i am not for or against buff or nerf the panther ( i do believe it needs something, just a small adjustment of some kind).
But lying is not constructive at all and people (some of them) are lying, there are many Panthers in 1s and 2s. So tell that to this people to be constructive and to not lie.

happy that someone see the whole picture here.

The whole picture is that the Jackson is getting a buff and the Panther a nerf. The Elefant becomes essentialy useless with low speed and a damage so low that the Allied player needs to absolutely forget his unit for the Elefant to score a kill. This adds up and you have Ostheer which can't compete lategame although thir initial design was to be strong at lategame.

Now OKW is also getting nerfed so you can't even rely on your teammates to carry the Ostheer faction through the lategame.

This means nothing about the Ostheer Tier 3 meta changes. In fact Ostheer players will be even more hard pressed to play Tier 3 now.

I'm just waiting for the StuG nerf to see Ostheer being nerfed out of this game for good. Because some clowns already mentioned their ideas to push people into the underpowered Panther by making the StuG underpowered as well. Anyway, glorious times are upon us.

The whole picture is that the Jackson is getting a buff and the Panther a nerf. The Elefant becomes essentialy useless with low speed and a damage so low that the Allied player needs to absolutely forget his unit for the Elefant to score a kill. This adds up and you have Ostheer which can't compete lategame although thir initial design was to be strong at lategame.

Now OKW is also getting nerfed so you can't even rely on your teammates to carry the Ostheer faction through the lategame.

This means nothing about the Ostheer Tier 3 meta changes. In fact Ostheer players will be even more hard pressed to play Tier 3 now.

I'm just waiting for the StuG nerf to see Ostheer being nerfed out of this game for good. Because some clowns already mentioned their ideas to push people into the underpowered Panther by making the StuG underpowered as well. Anyway, glorious times are upon us.

and the jackson cost more to. wait to play the damn mod first please and there will be more changes coming.

elefant or jagds two shoting medium was stupid.

So, I guess by this logic, that the Panzer IV is now slightly OP, as it is quite similar in cost to the other medium tanks, and only decently outmatched by them. That sounds fishy to me, let's increase its cost a bit...

P.S.:



Wow, I don't even have a shitty picture for that anymore. What's gonna happen next? Some more range? "Urgh blurb we feel that the Jackson doesn't quite fulfil its role as a tank hunter, so we raised its damage output a wee bit. Damage from x to 348792347891234678934256789234."

I'd rather see a penetration buff for the Jackson next, end all of it's memes, you know?

hmm, most of the general changes (garrisons, AA rebalancing,..) seem good, but as a player who loves 2v2AT the most, it seems that the balance team has completely forgotten this mode

1v1 balance is most important and directly after that seems to be 4v4, which seems odd to me because 2v2AT is and always was the most competetive Teammode, while 4v4 was always a shitfest and not in need of balance changes as most of the "balance problems" there are L2P problems because of bad players

The whole picture is that the Jackson is getting a buff and the Panther a nerf. The Elefant becomes essentialy useless with low speed and a damage so low that the Allied player needs to absolutely forget his unit for the Elefant to score a kill. This adds up and you have Ostheer which can't compete lategame although thir initial design was to be strong at lategame.

Now OKW is also getting nerfed so you can't even rely on your teammates to carry the Ostheer faction through the lategame.

This means nothing about the Ostheer Tier 3 meta changes. In fact Ostheer players will be even more hard pressed to play Tier 3 now.

I'm just waiting for the StuG nerf to see Ostheer being nerfed out of this game for good. Because some clowns already mentioned their ideas to push people into the underpowered Panther by making the StuG underpowered as well. Anyway, glorious times are upon us.

Wow, waht about soviet meta ? Penals for live or maxims adn cons for dead ? Isnt its bad that only 1 tier work fine ?

I'd rather see a penetration buff for the Jackson next, end all of it's memes, you know?

Why not combine it into a complete "miniature tiny change" patch? Buff its armour, damage, range, penetration and speed a tiny wee bit (I suggest 300% for each). Just this very minor amount should be enough, to make the Jackson a valuable tool in the USF toolbox - if you go overboard with it, it might end up being OP, but this way you can't do anything wrong.

Warning a wall text coming, my apologies.

DBP Goals
Tune select underused / undervalued commanders to increase and diversify the number of viable strategies available in automatch (More info to come - to be included in V2 of the DBP Mod)"

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Repair Speeds
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Forward Retreat Points
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Fuel and Munition Caches
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OKW
Kubelwagon
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Jagdtiger
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"Panther V
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Sturmtiger
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Panther V
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Stuka Dive Bomb
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M4C Sherman
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Penal
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Dshka
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Maxim Suppression Intel Bulletin
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Conscript
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ISU-152
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USF
Calliope
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Priest
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Rear- Echelons / Riflemen
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BRITISH
British Trench
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Firefly
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BUG FIXES & Quality of Life Changes
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Could you provide me with reasonable arguments as to why you think why the proposed Panther changes will cause the Panther to underperform. Also in what way do you think that the changes reduce the performance of the OST Panther, rather than enhance it?

My argumentation is as follows

Live-version vet2 OST Panther is a great unit. It just takes so long to get there, and it's too big of an investment until then.

In the live version, if you've managed to get your OST Panther to Vet2, it's a great unit. It's more than great; Now you're also one breath away from Vet3, where you get a nifty reload bonus. You are probably going to get it now because the Vet2 bonus significantly increases the survivability of the Panther.

The reason is because Vet2 boosts the following stats:
- +10% Armor; that's a relatively minor bonus
- +20% Hitpoints; that's a major bonus, as it now requires 6 penetrating hits to kill your Panther

The HP bonus is always valid and can never be bypassed; regardless of the penetration of enemy weapons, deflection damage, or even if your Panther is facing the wrong way.

Sidenote:
The DBP doesn't remove the major +20% HP bonus. It only removes the minor +10% armor bonus from Vet2

The only problem with OST Panther Vet2 is that it takes some time to get there. That's because:
- The Panther has low DPS (thus, low potential to accumulate veterancy)
- If T3 is not skipped, the Panther comes very late into the game, and has little time to accumulate veterancy
- Worse yet, there is not much time left to use your Vet2 bonuses before the time ends

Thus, in the live game, your Panther will spend most of the time being a meh unit, and very little time being a good unit until the game ends.

To address this, DBP changes the Panther to make it:
- A good unit from the moment it hits the field (upgraded from meh unit)
- Make it remain a good (but not OP) unit from Vet2 onwards

Now, why is the OST Panther meh at Vet0? The most important reason for the Panther being meh is that it comes out too late, if you cannot afford to skip T3. Everything else has gained more vet at this point, and the Panther has a lot to do to catch up.

Secondly, the OST Panther is meh at Vet0 because it has low DPS. The gun has very high penetration, but it fires too slow. Even if you flank a heavy-armoured target with the Panther, there's no pay-off; you're probably now showing your rear armour too, so now you lost your advantage.

How does DBP achieve that? From Vet0 onwards, the Panther now benefits from:
- Faster reload. This improves Panthers DPS vs all targets, from the difficult-to-hit light vehicles, to the trivial-to-hit heavy vehicles
- More consistent reload. This will allow people to use glide-shot micro to improve their chances of hitting.

The latter is crucial since previously, Panther shots could drift up to one second. Even if your micro is on par, you'd have to, sometimes, spend 1 second stationary, seeing your target run away and your momentum diminished.

With tigher reload times, the OST Panther can finally benefit from glide-shots, just like every other tank in the game

Finally, since both buffs take effect from Vet0:

Your OST Panther is now a much better unit during the miserable timeframe between Vet0 and Vet2, where your Panther used to suck.

Moreover, since your Panther hits much more frequently, and more consistently, the veterancy gain speed will improve.

This means that the OST Panther will spend even less time at lower veterancy levels, where it used to suck

The Vet0 buffs do not go away with veterancy. The new Vet2 Panther will still fire faster than the old Vet2 Panther. The Vet0 reload buffs will also stack with the Vet3 bonus.

Finally, no. We don't know if the reload speed bonus will be enough without testing it extensively first. If the reload speed buff is too small, we'll increase it; if it's too big of a buff, we'll decrease it.

So, stay tight and give us feedback based on your in-game experiences with the new Panther

Now, repeat after me:
- The big #1 reason why Panther sucks in 1v1 is almost exclusively because of teching cost, and teching synergy in OST
- It is completely absurd to expect the Panther to be fixed without fixing teching costs. Otherwise we're just breaking the late-game

While this does sound like a more promising unit when you place your arguments and why things are this way, Ostheer will have no reliable TD against allied TDs in teamgames. 1v1 is just out of question due to teching costs/callins. The firefly, which I understand is a tank destroyer and therefore considered a counter to the panther, is cheaper and can easily deal with panthers at range. If the counter argument to being killed at range is to dive with a 175F/200F panther that is WAY too expensive. I understand the idea behind trying to quell panther spam, but dives from panther spam can be halted with mines and they become easy kills for 60 range TDs.

On that point, can a similar style of thinking be applied to heavy TDs? Heavy TDs cannot do a thing if they get outflanked. So how do you stop from being flanked? Mines! how do you counter mines? sweepers! Instead with 3 shots to kill a simple 80F T34 (which should definatly have that fuel cost up'd to 90) can now just charge in, tank 2 hits and then ram a heavy TD for stun and possible engine damage. Any kind of follow up where the allies win the engagement is instantly dead TD. I personally don't see heavy TDs as a problem as a unit. I think certain maps give them to large of an advantage due to narrow lane like paths. Port to hamburg for example.

Why does the Jackson need an HP buff? In personal experience where I've used jacksons 95% of the time I lose the jackson due to being swarmed from lack of mines (now fixed), pathing, or double tap abuse (now fixed potentially whichever double tap abilities you guys have managed to solve). Other than that the jackson is perfectly fine aside from the HVAP aim time. If the jackson doesn't receive some form of tradeoff for its buff it will slaughter all tanks from the axis except heavy TDs. Ostheer more so for panther reasons stated above^.

Is it possible to get a defined scope yet? I don't understand why certain things were not included in this patch. Examples are captain "On me!", Raid officer Heroic charge, demos.

Until panthers get to vet 2 they're still dead in 4 shots from jacksons. 640 health jacksons will likewise take 4 shots from panthers to kill.

But Jacksons having 640 health has nothing to do with panthers.

The team wants jacksons to be able to take 2 elefant/jagdtiger shells and survive. This is why elefants and jagdtiger damage is reduced to 300.

This was the only reason back in FBP, and it's the only reason now. The panther stuff seems more like a smoke and mirrors attempt to shunt through that significant change.

While this does sound like a more promising unit when you place your arguments and why things are this way, Ostheer will have no reliable TD against allied TDs in teamgames. 1v1 is just out of question due to teching costs/callins. The firefly, which I understand is a tank destroyer and therefore considered a counter to the panther, is cheaper and can easily deal with panthers at range. If the counter argument to being killed at range is to dive with a 175F/200F panther that is WAY too expensive. I understand the idea behind trying to quell panther spam, but dives from panther spam can be halted with mines and they become easy kills for 60 range TDs.

On that point, can a similar style of thinking be applied to heavy TDs? Heavy TDs cannot do a thing if they get outflanked. So how do you stop from being flanked? Mines! how do you counter mines? sweepers! Instead with 3 shots to kill a simple 80F T34 (which should definatly have that fuel cost up'd to 90) can now just charge in, tank 2 hits and then ram a heavy TD for stun and possible engine damage. Any kind of follow up where the allies win the engagement is instantly dead TD. I personally don't see heavy TDs as a problem as a unit. I think certain maps give them to large of an advantage due to narrow lane like paths. Port to hamburg for example.

Why does the Jackson need an HP buff? In personal experience where I've used jacksons 95% of the time I lose the jackson due to being swarmed from lack of mines (now fixed), pathing, or double tap abuse (now fixed potentially whichever double tap abilities you guys have managed to solve). Other than that the jackson is perfectly fine aside from the HVAP aim time. If the jackson doesn't receive some form of tradeoff for its buff it will slaughter all tanks from the axis except heavy TDs. Ostheer more so for panther reasons stated above^.

Is it possible to get a defined scope yet? I don't understand why certain things were not included in this patch. Examples are captain "On me!", Raid officer Heroic charge, demos.

Why you think panther are good choise vs TD ? Isnt panther are vs medium spam somthing like shield and vs heavy tanks ? OStheer have stugs, that are revialble TD, coz his stats and his price make him good. Imo you canot use arguments like this (I understand the idea behind trying to quell panther spam, but dives from panther spam can be halted with mines and they become easy kills for 60 range TDs. ) for reason that this game has sweepers.

T-34 price and pop cap its another problem, you cannot use its like argument do show how heavy TD are weak, coz if heavy units dont have support its will be dead unit soon. Its rule by game. How many flanks you can do in minsk, kharkov, reils and metal and another maps ?
I see problem with heavy TD, you put JT and he win the game, coz he 2 shoots tanks and TD from 85 range, also with ability he counter AT guns adn GL to penetrate his armor.

Jackson adn JP are same category TD, but one of them can be counter, coz low HP adn bad armor. It will be glass canon if its have like 70 range, but no, 60.

While this does sound like a more promising unit when you place your arguments and why things are this way, Ostheer will have no reliable TD against allied TDs in teamgames. 1v1 is just out of question due to teching costs/callins. The firefly, which I understand is a tank destroyer and therefore considered a counter to the panther, is cheaper and can easily deal with panthers at range. If the counter argument to being killed at range is to dive with a 175F/200F panther that is WAY too expensive. I understand the idea behind trying to quell panther spam, but dives from panther spam can be halted with mines and they become easy kills for 60 range TDs.

The Stug is supposed to fill that role. It's cheap, has reliable DPS and generally trades very well. For OKW you have JP4, 'nuff said.

On that point, can a similar style of thinking be applied to heavy TDs? Heavy TDs cannot do a thing if they get outflanked. So how do you stop from being flanked? Mines! how do you counter mines? sweepers! Instead with 3 shots to kill a simple 80F T34 (which should definatly have that fuel cost up'd to 90) can now just charge in, tank 2 hits and then ram a heavy TD for stun and possible engine damage. Any kind of follow up where the allies win the engagement is instantly dead TD. I personally don't see heavy TDs as a problem as a unit. I think certain maps give them to large of an advantage due to narrow lane like paths. Port to hamburg for example.

You cover your heavyTD flanks with panzerschrecks, and you stop minesweepers with MGs. Axis infantry will no longer be a rarity after murican artillery nerfs.

As long as the enemy doesn't commit to a push, you can still inflict vehicle damage and keep the enemy repairing. But, you actually have to move your ass now and attack at somepoint to capitalize on those gains.

Why does the Jackson need an HP buff? In personal experience where I've used jacksons 95% of the time I lose the jackson due to being swarmed from lack of mines (now fixed), pathing, or double tap abuse (now fixed potentially whichever double tap abilities you guys have managed to solve). Other than that the jackson is perfectly fine aside from the HVAP aim time. If the jackson doesn't receive some form of tradeoff for its buff it will slaughter all tanks from the axis except heavy TDs. Ostheer more so for panther reasons stated above^.

The jackon is more expensive too. That's one tradeoff. Riflemen also lost their smoke. That's another tradeoff. If the jackson requires additional changes, it will get them.

The jackson is still the only unit that can threaten heavily armoured vehicles for the USF. If the jackson dies, USF have a problem. And if the jackson is so insanely fragile that makes the endgame unfair and frustrating for USF.

It's not going to be just Jacksons and Riflemen in the lategame though; you'll need some RE's too.

Is it possible to get a defined scope yet? I don't understand why certain things were not included in this patch. Examples are captain "On me!", Raid officer Heroic charge, demos.

That has never been the case so far. So why should it be any different this time?

Why not combine it into a complete "miniature tiny change" patch? Buff its armour, damage, range, penetration and speed a tiny wee bit (I suggest 300% for each). Just this very minor amount should be enough, to make the Jackson a valuable tool in the USF toolbox - if you go overboard with it, it might end up being OP, but this way you can't do anything wrong.

The thing is, the Jackson is your ultimate answer to everything, unless you went Pershing, as it's your sole Tank Destroyer and currently it can fail miserably at it's job, due to it's squishyness not allowing it to do any sort of chase to finish of enemy tanks, then there is the HVAP arounds bugging out.

British Trench
* British Trench now capturable by enemy troops


this is so funny