December Balance Preview

Can people please stop with the myth that you don't see Panthers in 1s and 2s?

For being a tier 4 and what smith is attempting to put out here as a “generalist” tank that is in a good spot. No, in fact you don’t see it. What you see is AT guns>stugs>tiger/elephant

What you see is a specialist Tank destroyer that is being out performed by cheaper tanks in tier 3.
What you see is a specialist tank destroyer that has 3 MGs that must be pointed in the same direction to put out a respectable steady damage over time, and that is being used as a main argument of the panthers lethality.

Iv said many times in many “buff ost panther/buff ost armour” post that’s come up over the year,
Panther simply needs a decrease in reload timing OR (specialist)
A moving accuracy buff OR (specialist)
Better AI capability’s. (Generalist) Givin the current brumbar state, I see the AI option to be the last option)

As been said many times, the fear of panthers being spammed like Coments, do we forget the Coments was an anti everything tank that was carried by a cheaper anti everything tank in mid game aka Cromwell. That could even smoke out AT guns, and especially wipe Grens with ease with its main cannon. To compare the two is atrocious. I would accept a pop increase if the AI capabilities of its main cannon is increased/turret lethality. But if it’s simply the other two, then nothing else needs to be changed IMO.

What you see is a specialist Tank destroyer that is being out performed by cheaper tanks in tier 3.

So maybe it is in the good spot today but not the stug. The stug is overperforming, there is nothing new here. At the beginning it wasn't that good so the panther had is utility, now 2 stugs do better job than a panther.
The problem is not only located with the Ostheer, the SU-72 also does a better job in pack than the SU-85.

In synthesis, having units overlaping doesn't necessarily mean the most expensive one is crap, no, here the stug is overperforming.

So maybe it is in the good spot today but not the stug. The stug is overperforming, there is nothing new here. At the beginning it wasn't that good so the panther had is utility, now 2 stugs do better job than a panther.
The problem is not only located with the Ostheer, the SU-72 also does a better job in pack than the SU-85.

In synthesis, having units overlaping doesn't necessarily mean the most expensive one is crap, no, here the stug is overperforming.

Yeah, let's nerf Wehrmacht even further. The Panther doesn't perform, gets nerfed and thus the only efficient AT vehicle of the Wehrmacht also needs to get nerfed. What a logic. With the next patch Wehrmacht is not going to be able to compete. Elefants that have no use at all and Panthers that can't perform. tell me how that is going to work out versus superior Allied TDs and Comets. It won't.

Why are people so sad about the OST Panther changes? Yes now it's even more overpriced and useless, but why even go for Panther when you have Brummbar in the same tier.

Brummbar is THE BEST squad wiping machine in the game since months if used correctly (--> ground attack), period.

And StuG spam has proven many times already that it's way more efficient, both cost- and lethality- wise, in any situation compared to Panther, so just back-tech and spam StuGs Show Spoiler

Okey, so if you guys so write about panther, i think you agree taht stug need nerf , same with brumbar ?
All this changes for t4 scary me for one reason, brumbars into 2 pacs or shrek will be very bad, compared to units that can answer for this.l]

Try posting something contructive.

Why are people so sad about the OST Panther changes? Yes now it's even more overpriced and useless, but why even go for Panther when you have Brummbar in the same tier.

Brummbar is THE BEST squad wiping machine in the game since months if used correctly (--> ground attack), period.

And StuG spam has proven many times already that it's way more efficient, both cost- and lethality- wise, in any situation compared to Panther, so just back-tech and spam StuGs Show Spoiler

Underperforming unit is nerfed -> why cry when something else is working as intended?

Let's nerf sov sniper since the penals are fine right?
Let's nerf airborne since riflemen are fine right?
Let's nerf 6 pounder since firefly is fine right?

If you can't figure out why people freak out when a underperforming unit is nerfed, go look at the werfer.

Show Spoiler

Try posting something contructive.



Underperforming unit is nerfed -> why cry when something else is working as intended?

Let's nerf sov sniper since the penals are fine right?
Let's nerf airborne since riflemen are fine right?
Let's nerf 6 pounder since firefly is fine right?

If you can't figure out why people freak out when a underperforming unit is nerfed, go look at the werfer.

Show Spoiler

Yes I know why people are upset, my post wasnt meant to be 100% serious. Besides that I realized long time ago that arguing on these balance forums is close to useless (wont go in detail about the reasons).

Pls allow me that 1 troll post(even tho what I said was true lol), therefore I will now stop arguing on this thread

Yes I know why people are upset, my post wasnt meant to be 100% serious. Besides that I realized long time ago that arguing on these balance forums is close to useless (wont go in detail about the reasons).

Pls allow me that 1 troll post(even tho what I said was true lol), therefore I will now stop arguing on this thread

Fair enough, you got me.

Sadly, with the "intellect" of certain posters here, one can no longer tell if someothing is genuine or troll.
But it's useless to argue either way, that much we agree on.

Absolutely hate the patch! No BUFFS as USUAL for OKW and OST. Soviets get ISU 152 buffs but at the same time Jagdtiger gets nerfed out of existence. Without engine upgrade it will take 1-1.5 mins. on big maps to get to the front. No idea why Jackson is being buffed, it was already rather OP, particularly with bulletins. The main weapon for protecting JP4 and Jagtiger the panther is totally dead.
Ranting a bit about german nerfs but relic SUCKS!
Still like the changes to Leig, penals (mines, conscript AT package and Penal changes.
Wandering as USUAL why no new maps??????
Relic have bad habit of nerfing something OP to UP and buffing its counter.
Still hope this isn't final patch

Absolutely hate the patch! No BUFFS as USUAL for OKW and OST.

Better spacing for 4 man squads

Brit repair speed nerfed, rifles lose smoke, penals worse on the move and less sticky satchels, nerfed firefly, nerfed garrisons, nerfed FRP.


This all helps ost?

how is the panther spam getting compared to the pre nerf comet spam? they are NO WHERE NEAR the same level, Comet had really good AI Good AT, fast, good armour, fire accurately on the move and superior range allowing them to snipe tanks.

Are the people responsible for the patch suppose to make their own decisions or make decisions that the majority of the community agrees on? because it seems to me someone is pushing ther L2P issues into game. Panther spam lol cmon

Better spacing for 4 man squads

Brit repair speed nerfed, rifles lose smoke, penals worse on the move and less sticky satchels, nerfed firefly, nerfed garrisons, nerfed FRP.


This all helps ost?

What the hell has this got to do with what i wrote about?
Anyway this are very minor Allied nerfs in comparison to german ones

how is the panther spam getting compared to the pre nerf comet spam? they are NO WHERE NEAR the same level, Comet had really good AI Good AT, fast, good armour, fire accurately on the move and superior range allowing them to snipe tanks.

Are the people responsible for the patch suppose to make their own decisions or make decisions that the majority of the community agrees on? because it seems to me someone is pushing ther L2P issues into game. Panther spam lol cmon

Why are people so sad about the OST Panther changes? Yes now it's even more overpriced and useless, but why even go for Panther when you have Brummbar in the same tier.

Could you provide me with reasonable arguments as to why you think why the proposed Panther changes will cause the Panther to underperform. Also in what way do you think that the changes reduce the performance of the OST Panther, rather than enhance it?

My argumentation is as follows

Live-version vet2 OST Panther is a great unit. It just takes so long to get there, and it's too big of an investment until then.

In the live version, if you've managed to get your OST Panther to Vet2, it's a great unit. It's more than great; Now you're also one breath away from Vet3, where you get a nifty reload bonus. You are probably going to get it now because the Vet2 bonus significantly increases the survivability of the Panther.

The reason is because Vet2 boosts the following stats:
- +10% Armor; that's a relatively minor bonus
- +20% Hitpoints; that's a major bonus, as it now requires 6 penetrating hits to kill your Panther

The HP bonus is always valid and can never be bypassed; regardless of the penetration of enemy weapons, deflection damage, or even if your Panther is facing the wrong way.

Sidenote:
The DBP doesn't remove the major +20% HP bonus. It only removes the minor +10% armor bonus from Vet2

The only problem with OST Panther Vet2 is that it takes some time to get there. That's because:
- The Panther has low DPS (thus, low potential to accumulate veterancy)
- If T3 is not skipped, the Panther comes very late into the game, and has little time to accumulate veterancy
- Worse yet, there is not much time left to use your Vet2 bonuses before the time ends

Thus, in the live game, your Panther will spend most of the time being a meh unit, and very little time being a good unit until the game ends.

To address this, DBP changes the Panther to make it:
- A good unit from the moment it hits the field (upgraded from meh unit)
- Make it remain a good (but not OP) unit from Vet2 onwards

Now, why is the OST Panther meh at Vet0? The most important reason for the Panther being meh is that it comes out too late, if you cannot afford to skip T3. Everything else has gained more vet at this point, and the Panther has a lot to do to catch up.

Secondly, the OST Panther is meh at Vet0 because it has low DPS. The gun has very high penetration, but it fires too slow. Even if you flank a heavy-armoured target with the Panther, there's no pay-off; you're probably now showing your rear armour too, so now you lost your advantage.

How does DBP achieve that? From Vet0 onwards, the Panther now benefits from:
- Faster reload. This improves Panthers DPS vs all targets, from the difficult-to-hit light vehicles, to the trivial-to-hit heavy vehicles
- More consistent reload. This will allow people to use glide-shot micro to improve their chances of hitting.

The latter is crucial since previously, Panther shots could drift up to one second. Even if your micro is on par, you'd have to, sometimes, spend 1 second stationary, seeing your target run away and your momentum diminished.

With tigher reload times, the OST Panther can finally benefit from glide-shots, just like every other tank in the game

Finally, since both buffs take effect from Vet0:

Your OST Panther is now a much better unit during the miserable timeframe between Vet0 and Vet2, where your Panther used to suck.

Moreover, since your Panther hits much more frequently, and more consistently, the veterancy gain speed will improve.

This means that the OST Panther will spend even less time at lower veterancy levels, where it used to suck

The Vet0 buffs do not go away with veterancy. The new Vet2 Panther will still fire faster than the old Vet2 Panther. The Vet0 reload buffs will also stack with the Vet3 bonus.

Finally, no. We don't know if the reload speed bonus will be enough without testing it extensively first. If the reload speed buff is too small, we'll increase it; if it's too big of a buff, we'll decrease it.

So, stay tight and give us feedback based on your in-game experiences with the new Panther

Now, repeat after me:
- The big #1 reason why Panther sucks in 1v1 is almost exclusively because of teching cost, and teching synergy in OST
- It is completely absurd to expect the Panther to be fixed without fixing teching costs. Otherwise we're just breaking the late-game

Could you provide me with reasonable arguments as to why you think why the proposed Panther changes will cause the Panther to underperform. Also in what way do you think that the changes reduce the performance of the OST Panther, rather than enhance it?

My argumentation is as follows

Live-version vet2 OST Panther is a great unit. It just takes so long to get there, and it's too big of an investment until then.

In the live version, if you've managed to get your OST Panther to Vet2, it's a great unit. It's more than great; Now you're also one breath away from Vet3, where you get a nifty reload bonus. You are probably going to get it now because the Vet2 bonus significantly increases the survivability of the Panther.

The reason is that Vet2 boosts the following stats:
- +10% Armor; that's a relatively minor bonus
- +20% Hitpoints; that's a major bonus, as it now requires 6 penetrating hits to kill your Panther

The HP bonus is always valid and can never be bypassed; regardless of the penetration of enemy weapons, deflection damage, or even if your Panther is facing the wrong way.

Sidenote:
The DBP doesn't remove the major +20% HP bonus. It only removes the minor +10% armor bonus from Vet2

The only problem with OST Panther Vet2 is that it takes some time to get there. That's because:
- The Panther has low DPS (thus, low potential to accumulate veterancy)
- If T3 is not skipped, the Panther comes very late into the game, and has little time to accumulate veterancy
- Worse yet, there is not much time left to use your Vet2 bonuses before the time ends

Thus, in the live game, your Panther will spend most of the time being a meh unit, and very little time being a good unit until the game ends.

To address this, DBP changes the Panther to make it:
- A good unit from the moment it hits the field (upgraded from meh unit)
- Make it remain a good (but not OP) unit from Vet2 onwards

Now, why is the OST Panther meh at Vet0? The most important reason for the Panther being meh is that it comes out too late, if you cannot afford to skip T3. Everything else has gained more vet at this point, and the Panther has a lot to do to catch up.

Secondly, the OST Panther is meh at Vet0 because it has low DPS. The gun has very high penetration, but it fires too slow. Even if you flank a heavy-armoured target with the Panther, there's no pay-off; you're probably now showing your rear armour too, so now you lost your advantage.

How does DBP achieve that? From Vet0 onwards, the Panther now benefits from:
- Faster reload. This improves Panthers DPS vs all targets, from the difficult-to-hit light vehicles, to the trivial-to-hit heavy vehicles
- More consistent reload. This will allow people to use glide-shot micro to improve their chances of hitting.

The latter is crucial since previously, Panther shots could drift up to one second. Even if your micro is on par, you'd have to, sometimes, spend 1 second stationary, seeing your target run away and your momentum diminished.

With tiger reload times, the OST Panther can finally benefit from glide-shots, just like every other tank in the game

Finally, since both buffs take effect from Vet0:

Your OST Panther is now a much better unit during the miserable timeframe between Vet0 and Vet2, where your Panther used to suck.

Moreover, since your Panther hits much more frequently, and more consistently, the veterancy gain speed will improve.

This means that the OST Panther will spend even less time at lower veterancy levels, where it used to suck

The Vet0 buffs do not go away with veterancy. The new Vet2 Panther will still fire faster than the old Vet2 Panther. The Vet0 reload buffs will also stack with the Vet3 bonus.

Finally, no. We don't know if the reload speed bonus will be enough without testing it extensively first. If the reload speed buff is too small, we'll increase it; if it's too big of a buff, we'll decrease it.

So, stay tight and give us feedback based on your in-game experiences with the new Panther

Now, repeat after me:
- The big #1 reason why Panther sucks in 1v1 is almost exclusively because of teching cost, and teching synergy in OST
- It is completely absurd to expect the Panther to be fixed without fixing teching costs. Otherwise we're just breaking the late-game

ok, what do you propose to change for the tier cost ?

What the hell has this got to do with what i wrote about?
Anyway this are very minor Allied nerfs in comparison to german ones

"Better spacing for 4 man squads

Brit repair speed nerfed, rifles lose smoke, penals worse on the move and less sticky satchels, nerfed firefly, nerfed garrisons, nerfed FRP."


I disagree that these are minor nerfs

The threat of sticky satchels severely hamper the shock value of a 222 or a fast P4 and the luchs (less so). Currently Soviets have their cake and eat it in this regard.

In small game modes rifle smoke negates Osts backbone.

US FRP allows US to maintain relentless pressure on ostheer which needs breathing room to flourish.

The firefly counters all ost armour.

4 man Squad wipes cost you the precious vet whilst 6 man allies squad survive

Garrisons changes help mortars (and ost have a particularly good one)


Meanwhile Ost loses what? 10% armour on a vet 2 panther. I won't comment on OKW as while they clearly have been nerfed a fair bit I have little experience

"Better spacing for 4 man squads

Brit repair speed nerfed, rifles lose smoke, penals worse on the move and less sticky satchels, nerfed firefly, nerfed garrisons, nerfed FRP."


I disagree that these are minor nerfs

The threat of sticky satchels severely hamper the shock value of a 222 or a fast P4 and the luchs (less so). Currently Soviets have their cake and eat it in this regard.

In small game modes rifle smoke negates Osts backbone.

US FRP allows US to maintain relentless pressure on ostheer which needs breathing room to flourish.

The firefly counters all ost armour.

4 man Squad wipes cost you the precious vet whilst 6 man allies squad survive

Garrisons changes help mortars (and ost have a particularly good one)


Meanwhile Ost loses what? 10% armour on a vet 2 panther. I won't comment on OKW as while they clearly have been nerfed a fair bit I have little experience

You have a point

You have a point

+1 to happy constructive discussion

+1 to happy constructive discussion

Could you provide me with reasonable arguments as to why you think why the proposed Panther changes will cause the Panther to underperform. Also in what way do you think that the changes reduce the performance of the OST Panther, rather than enhance it?

My argumentation is as follows

Live-version vet2 OST Panther is a great unit. It just takes so long to get there, and it's too big of an investment until then.

In the live version, if you've managed to get your OST Panther to Vet2, it's a great unit. It's more than great; Now you're also one breath away from Vet3, where you get a nifty reload bonus. You are probably going to get it now because the Vet2 bonus significantly increases the survivability of the Panther.

The reason is because Vet2 boosts the following stats:
- +10% Armor; that's a relatively minor bonus
- +20% Hitpoints; that's a major bonus, as it now requires 6 penetrating hits to kill your Panther

The HP bonus is always valid and can never be bypassed; regardless of the penetration of enemy weapons, deflection damage, or even if your Panther is facing the wrong way.

Sidenote:
The DBP doesn't remove the major +20% HP bonus. It only removes the minor +10% armor bonus from Vet2

The only problem with OST Panther Vet2 is that it takes some time to get there. That's because:
- The Panther has low DPS (thus, low potential to accumulate veterancy)
- If T3 is not skipped, the Panther comes very late into the game, and has little time to accumulate veterancy
- Worse yet, there is not much time left to use your Vet2 bonuses before the time ends

Thus, in the live game, your Panther will spend most of the time being a meh unit, and very little time being a good unit until the game ends.

To address this, DBP changes the Panther to make it:
- A good unit from the moment it hits the field (upgraded from meh unit)
- Make it remain a good (but not OP) unit from Vet2 onwards

Now, why is the OST Panther meh at Vet0? The most important reason for the Panther being meh is that it comes out too late, if you cannot afford to skip T3. Everything else has gained more vet at this point, and the Panther has a lot to do to catch up.

Secondly, the OST Panther is meh at Vet0 because it has low DPS. The gun has very high penetration, but it fires too slow. Even if you flank a heavy-armoured target with the Panther, there's no pay-off; you're probably now showing your rear armour too, so now you lost your advantage.

How does DBP achieve that? From Vet0 onwards, the Panther now benefits from:
- Faster reload. This improves Panthers DPS vs all targets, from the difficult-to-hit light vehicles, to the trivial-to-hit heavy vehicles
- More consistent reload. This will allow people to use glide-shot micro to improve their chances of hitting.

The latter is crucial since previously, Panther shots could drift up to one second. Even if your micro is on par, you'd have to, sometimes, spend 1 second stationary, seeing your target run away and your momentum diminished.

With tigher reload times, the OST Panther can finally benefit from glide-shots, just like every other tank in the game

Finally, since both buffs take effect from Vet0:

Your OST Panther is now a much better unit during the miserable timeframe between Vet0 and Vet2, where your Panther used to suck.

Moreover, since your Panther hits much more frequently, and more consistently, the veterancy gain speed will improve.

This means that the OST Panther will spend even less time at lower veterancy levels, where it used to suck

The Vet0 buffs do not go away with veterancy. The new Vet2 Panther will still fire faster than the old Vet2 Panther. The Vet0 reload buffs will also stack with the Vet3 bonus.

Finally, no. We don't know if the reload speed bonus will be enough without testing it extensively first. If the reload speed buff is too small, we'll increase it; if it's too big of a buff, we'll decrease it.

So, stay tight and give us feedback based on your in-game experiences with the new Panther

Now, repeat after me:
- The big #1 reason why Panther sucks in 1v1 is almost exclusively because of teching cost, and teching synergy in OST
- It is completely absurd to expect the Panther to be fixed without fixing teching costs. Otherwise we're just breaking the late-game

This makes sense. But what I still dont get is why the Panther wasn´t completly overhauled. Panthers are and will only be useful after vet 2. Before vet 2 they are just not cost-effective enough. Vet 2 Panthers are imo quite OP in the live version because of their speed (vet 1 blitz) and survivability, especially against Soviets who lack elite AT options. I dont think that´s a good unit design. I would have liked the removal of the op vet 2 buff but in compensation of that accuracy and ROF buff for the vet 0 panther.