Some concerns with Panzerfuseliers.

But grenadiers are currently balance with Tommies/Riflemen/Cons

I would say vanilla tommies slightly overperform vs. vanilla grens in a vacuum when reinforce cost is taken into account, but then again ostheeer has snipers and turbo mortars (in annoy vacuum) so it's pretty much fine (especially since both are effective against brits). Another thing to note is that tommies lack a snare or usable grenade and are garbage on the move. Kinda ended up contradicting my original point at the end but whatever.

Actually one can if one keeps in mind the other aspect as well.

Mainline infantry should be comparable not equal.

For instance Riflemen where designed as infantry that is OP because their support weapons where UP. Since the latest patches tented to improve the cost efficiency of USF support weapons Riflemen need to become a bit less OP.

For instance by moving smoke to officers or elite infantry and/or removing the lasting disabling affect on vehicle weapons.

Lol Thompson paras and rangers with smoke would be batshit op. IMO officers with smoke would be too little smoke (especially because you usually only have 2). I think if officers and REs had smoke it'd probably be fine. I don't think it disables vehicle weapons though, only slows their move speed (only being somewhat of a misnomer)

Lol Thompson paras and rangers with smoke would be batshit op. IMO officers with smoke would be too little smoke (especially because you usually only have 2). I think if officers and REs had smoke it'd probably be fine. I don't think it disables vehicle weapons though, only slows their move speed (only being somewhat of a misnomer)

If Thompson units get smoke one could easily lower their mid DPS which is very high for smgs units and bring them more inline with the shock's PPsh curve.

Too "little smoke" is still more than most other factions since the get smoke from their mortar, their infantry and tanks.

Second of all, They certainly do not overlap the role of volksgrenadiers but rather replace their role as a damage disher and receiver.

I mean, that really IS what I said. That pfusis role is essentially the same as that of volksgrenadiers (read: that in their current capacity, theyre used to replace volksgrenadiers). As for what their role actually should be, I unfortunately have nothing to add.

If Thompson units get smoke one could easily lower their mid DPS which is very high for smgs units and bring them more inline with the shock's PPsh curve.

Too "little smoke" is still more than most other factions since the get smoke from their mortar, their infantry and tanks.

True but tons of smoke is supposed to be a defining characteristic of usf, like 5 vet levels for okw. I could get behind decreasing the mid dps of Thompsons if they got smoke, but their insane close dps coupled with smoke on the unit might still be a problem IMO, especially against ostheer.

Basically what I'm saying is I think it's good that elite infantry has to work in tandem with rifles in combined arms situations (due to lack of smoke, snares, and numbers), not just supplant them, which giving gem smoke would help them do, and given their role would be sort of op.

I mean, that really IS what I said. That pfusis role is essentially the same as that of volksgrenadiers (read: that in their current capacity, theyre used to replace volksgrenadiers). As for what their role actually should be, I unfortunately have nothing to add.

I can see that you mentioned it before, but i do think i can't stress it enough. Wether it is against AI or human opponents, PF are just very powerfull if you get 2- 3 of them. Let's not start about being lucky and grabbing the occasional BAR or Bren...

What role they should fullfill? I'd personally like to see them partially like Obersoldaten: an unit effective at long range, capable of providing excellent fire from long range to which to support VG or armored vehicles with. They come in much earlier than Obers so they transition from a early- game support unit(since that is what they are doing: supporting infantry/armor with their decent firepower) to a late- game scout unit, with G43's and flares, since Obers can take the role of providing support(they're arguably better at it).

All of this is just theory from my perspective though, so it certainly has flaws i don't see yet.

I can see that you mentioned it before, but i do think i can't stress it enough. Wether it is against AI or human opponents, PF are just very powerfull if you get 2- 3 of them. Let's not start about being lucky and grabbing the occasional BAR or Bren...

What role they should fullfill? I'd personally like to see them partially like Obersoldaten: an unit effective at long range, capable of providing excellent fire from long range to which to support VG or armored vehicles with. They come in much earlier than Obers so they transition from a early- game support unit(since that is what they are doing: supporting infantry/armor with their decent firepower) to a late- game scout unit, with G43's and flares, since Obers can take the role of providing support(they're arguably better at it).

All of this is just theory from my perspective though, so it certainly has flaws i don't see yet.

Imo (again, my take on this, its all good if you feel differently, not that thats been an issue here ) units are effective in blobs if they have either:
1. Great moving dps
2. Great long range dps
Pfusis currently have great moving dps (among other insane things), so i dont think giving them long range dps will fix the blobbing issue, especially if they have the sight range to avoid hmgs.

Imo (again, my take on this, its all good if you feel differently, not that thats been an issue here ) is that units are effective in blobs if they have either:
1. Great moving dps
2. Great long range dps
Pfusis currently have great moving dps (among other insane things), so i dont think giving them long range dps will fix the blobbing issue, especially if they have the sight range to avoid hmgs.

Yeah I think their moving dps needs to go down for sure. They're really good at wiping retreating squads, even when not blobbed. Don't they already have very good long range dps though as a 6 man squad with g43s?

Yeah I think their moving dps needs to go down for sure. They're really good at wiping retreating squads, even when not blobbed. Don't they already have very good long range dps though as a 6 man squad with g43s?

Its not particularly good. Slightly better than most vanilla mainline infantry.


Well, the base values for long range pfusis with g43s arent that great*
Once you throw in vet, that all gets tossed out the window

To clarify, g43s are almost exclusively a close range (+moving dps +sight range) upgrade)

Its not particularly good. Slightly better than most vanilla mainline infantry.


Well, the base values for long range pfusis with g43s arent that great*
Once you throw in vet, that all gets tossed out the window

To clarify, g43s are almost exclusively a close range (+moving dps +sight range) upgrade)

Huh. I'm guessing it is mostly in the vet then. I know g43s are mainly a close range upgrade but they also give excellent moving dps without actually sacrificing long range dps right? (although I guess that applies 100% to BARs and volks stgs too)

In any case, they do have better performance than their cost should warrant.

Huh. I'm guessing it is mostly in the vet then. I know g43s are mainly a close range upgrade but they also give excellent moving dps without actually sacrificing long range dps right? (although I guess that applies 100% to BARs and volks stgs too)

In any case, they do have better performance than their cost should warrant.

Actually, if im correct (i definitely may not be), volks stgs see similar dps penalties as most rifles do when moving.

And while I can't compile and run the dps calculator, according to the website i use (which is generally acceptably accurate) theres almost no dps change at long range (negligible increase), with the close range increase we all know about, and the pretty large moving dps increase. So yes, all of your initial assumptions were correct (that is, if IM correct...) except that long range dps is mostly untouched.

As for the cost effectiveness of the upgrade, I would argue that theyre not necessarily too efficient. Maybe if you count the sight range increase (which i suppose you should... though I think it needs to go anyway) then they are. I recall that the pfusi g43s are a similar 1 g43 vs 1 k98 dps upgrade as gren g43s are. Of course, that ignores squad size, and in no way is this meant to be absolute proof for a hard argument. I just think that the cost efficiency probably isnt that far off (if at all).

The main thing I want to get across though is that I think that vet and pop are the issues so they are things that should be addressed (sight range being a definite but minor one, but this may only be because of the other two issues). I think that most other things that pfusis are doing too well or most other things that people think should be nerfed about them actually stem back from the issues of vet and pop (possibly moving dps and sight range, id prefer to be conservative though). I'd rather argue solely for these changes that I'm really confident in, then see what state that would put pfusis in, then go from there.

If one things the DPS performance of the PF is problematic one has to keep in mind that the far DPS is very similar to Penal battalions.

Their vet bonuses are also close but Penals get their DPS boost by vet 3 and not vet 4.

PF's are too good for cost. But, their reinforce cost is fine.

They give great LoS, and have a number of abilities that make them a good choice in almost all circumstances. At vet 5 they can flick away any allied infantry not in cover, and they will always fight with the advantage as they can choose engagements with their LoS. I don't think the Sturm officer matters when referring to them. Maybe in larger team games for a couple of minutes, but the officer is so expensive for what it does, always runs the risk of the force retreat, and does not gain vet so never improves.

The popcap needs to rise slightly, and their G43 upgrade may need to come down by one or two guns (I think this makes them likely to get really nasty should they pick up a weapon). OR the popcap needs to rise significantly. OR the popcap can increase slightly and their vet is looked at, with nerfs after vet 1 and especially to the vet 5.

Actually, if im correct (i definitely may not be), volks stgs see similar dps penalties as most rifles do when moving.

And while I can't compile and run the dps calculator, according to the website i use (which is generally acceptably accurate) theres almost no dps change at long range (negligible increase), with the close range increase we all know about, and the pretty large moving dps increase. So yes, all of your initial assumptions were correct (that is, if IM correct...) except that long range dps is mostly untouched.

As for the cost effectiveness of the upgrade, I would argue that theyre not necessarily too efficient. Maybe if you count the sight range increase (which i suppose you should... though I think it needs to go anyway) then they are. I recall that the pfusi g43s are a similar 1 g43 vs 1 k98 dps upgrade as gren g43s are. Of course, that ignores squad size, and in no way is this meant to be absolute proof for a hard argument. I just think that the cost efficiency probably isnt that far off (if at all).

The main thing I want to get across though is that I think that vet and pop are the issues so they are things that should be addressed (sight range being a definite but minor one, but this may only be because of the other two issues). I think that most other things that pfusis are doing too well or most other things that people think should be nerfed about them actually stem back from the issues of vet and pop (possibly moving dps and sight range, id prefer to be conservative though). I'd rather argue solely for these changes that I'm really confident in, then see what state that would put pfusis in, then go from there.

Good to know. Thanks for doing the research.

I actualy meant the unit as a whole's cost efficiency. I think the upgrade is priced about right in theory (as the upgrade is IMO OP because it's on pfusies in the first place).

PF's are too good for cost. But, their reinforce cost is fine.

They give great LoS, and have a number of abilities that make them a good choice in almost all circumstances. At vet 5 they can flick away any allied infantry not in cover, and they will always fight with the advantage as they can choose engagements with their LoS. I don't think the Sturm officer matters when referring to them. Maybe in larger team games for a couple of minutes, but the officer is so expensive for what it does, always runs the risk of the force retreat, and does not gain vet so never improves.

The popcap needs to rise slightly, and their G43 upgrade may need to come down by one or two guns (I think this makes them likely to get really nasty should they pick up a weapon). OR the popcap needs to rise significantly. OR the popcap can increase slightly and their vet is looked at, with nerfs after vet 1 and especially to the vet 5.

IIRC the upgrade only gives them 2 g43s just like the other g43 upgrades. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I know for a fact that the g43s don't take slots though, so they can pick up lmgs and bars and the like if they find them.

You really think that their reinforce cost is ok? Isn't it like 24 or something? (not trying to be rude, just genuinely asking).

IIRC the upgrade only gives them 2 g43s just like the other g43 upgrades. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I know for a fact that the g43s don't take slots though, so they can pick up lmgs and bars and the like if they find them.

3 G43s

3 G43s

Ah ok thanks. Thought that sounded off.

they’re supposed to be elite infantry specialized at grinding away-this is IMO a garbage concept.

make them utility elite infantry w focus on recon. Increase cost to 28 per model, nerf G43s.

The sight bonus for the G43s is probably the main reason I opt for Panzerfusiliers. To be honest, making the sight bonus match the USF riflemen's doctrinal ability would've been a better measure: it only applies when in cover.

Making it an allround passive could've been a unique vet 4 or 5 flavor, too.

Just boost their population to 7-8, removing the 15% accuracy boost from veterancy 4 and lowering the sight range increase from G43s would probably be enough.

They're good, but their guns aren't that strong and on a model-by-model basis, they are fairly squishy to small-arms.

Just boost their population to 7-8, removing the 15% accuracy boost from veterancy 4 and lowering the sight range increase from G43s would probably be enough.

They're good, but their guns aren't that strong and on a model-by-model basis, they are fairly squishy to small-arms.

Funny you should that since the Penal battalion get similar accuracy boost by vet 3. If Penals are balanced unit DPS wise, PF should considered balanced also.

Penal Battalion
Unlocks the 'To the Last Man' ability.
+30% accuracy -20% weapon cooldown
+30% accuracy, -15% received accuracy, - 10 satchel charge cost

Total accuracy bonus x169% at vet 3 (not taking into account last man bonuses)

Panzerfüsilier
Unlocks the 'Flare' ability
+40% accuracy, +25% grenade and flare range
-20% weapon cooldown, -25% grenade and flare recharge, -23% received accuracy
+20% accuracy
passive sprint

Total accuracy bonus x169% at vet 4 x168% at vet 4

"Passive sprint" always on should be removed from all units and become a timed ability.

Funny you should that since the Penal battalion get similar accuracy boost by vet 3. If Penals are balanced unit DPS wise, PF should considered balanced also.

Penal Battalion
Unlocks the 'To the Last Man' ability.
+30% accuracy -20% weapon cooldown
+30% accuracy, -15% received accuracy, - 10 satchel charge cost

Total accuracy bonus x169% at vet 3 (not taking into account last man bonuses)

Panzerfüsilier
Unlocks the 'Flare' ability
+40% accuracy, +25% grenade and flare range
-20% weapon cooldown, -25% grenade and flare recharge, -23% received accuracy
+20% accuracy
passive sprint

Total accuracy bonus x169% at vet 4 x168% at vet 4

"Passive sprint" always on should be removed from all units and become a timed ability.

Pfussies also get passive sprint and better RA than Penal Battalions, on top of everything else.