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CoH2 and AoE4

22 Sep 2017, 17:29 PM
#1
avatar of Leo251

Posts: 311

It is a fact that Relic totally failed at balancing this game through this 5 years.
Do you imagine them balancing AoE4 with at least 10 or 12 factions?? lol

22 Sep 2017, 18:52 PM
#2
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Sep 2017, 17:29 PMLeo251
It is a fact that Relic totally failed at balancing this game through this 5 years.
Do you imagine them balancing AoE4 with at least 10 or 12 factions?? lol



With most factions basically sharing the same units. That's not the problem, cause you can even play mirror matches which even further reduces unit balance issues.
The uncertainty comes from a basic design point. Age of empires is a game which focuses on simple "micro" game mechanics but with HEAVY macro/economic/teching decisions playstyle.

Just compare any AoE with any of RTS relic franchises (CoH, DoW and HW).
22 Sep 2017, 18:53 PM
#3
avatar of Tiger Baron

Posts: 3145 | Subs: 2

Dawn of War 3 is the testament to Relic's new approach towards trying to be competitive and go play with the big boys (namely LoL, Dota 2 and StarCraft 2) at ESL, and as far as I know some of the people playing the Age series are competitive so don't really expect a really fun and not DLC filled experience.

It will just be another quick cash grab wanna be e-sports title.

Or just a wanna be e-sports title, I am not sure.

They haven't tried to milk Dawn of War 3 yet because of the low player numbers since they know if they try to do what they did with CoH 2 they'd be shooting themselves in the head, not the foot.

But yeah, CoH 2 is in a bad shape balance wise if you ask me, DoW 3 ain't doing too good and it's still in it's first year of being out, AoE 4 ain't looking too hot for me and many others who have dealt with Relic.

The AoE fanboys can keep their hype but that's probably because they haven't played a recent Relic game.

The original Dawn of War and Company of Heroes is where Relic's legacy dies.
23 Sep 2017, 03:13 AM
#4
avatar of Tobis
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2307 | Subs: 4

Dawn of War 3 is the testament to Relic's new approach towards trying to be competitive and go play with the big boys (namely LoL, Dota 2 and StarCraft 2) at ESL, and as far as I know some of the people playing the Age series are competitive so don't really expect a really fun and not DLC filled experience.

It will just be another quick cash grab wanna be e-sports title.

Or just a wanna be e-sports title, I am not sure.

They haven't tried to milk Dawn of War 3 yet because of the low player numbers since they know if they try to do what they did with CoH 2 they'd be shooting themselves in the head, not the foot.

But yeah, CoH 2 is in a bad shape balance wise if you ask me, DoW 3 ain't doing too good and it's still in it's first year of being out, AoE 4 ain't looking too hot for me and many others who have dealt with Relic.

The AoE fanboys can keep their hype but that's probably because they haven't played a recent Relic game.

The original Dawn of War and Company of Heroes is where Relic's legacy dies.

I believe Relic has two teams at this point, and this isn't the DoW3 team working on it, or if it is, they are supplementing a smaller team that has already been doing the backwork. The lead game designer is different, atleast.
23 Sep 2017, 08:25 AM
#5
23 Sep 2017, 13:05 PM
#6
avatar of RedT3rror

Posts: 747 | Subs: 2



With most factions basically sharing the same units. That's not the problem, cause you can even play mirror matches which even further reduces unit balance issues.
The uncertainty comes from a basic design point. Age of empires is a game which focuses on simple "micro" game mechanics but with HEAVY macro/economic/teching decisions playstyle.


Isn't it the other way around where meta is even more static by dictated build orders while the best microed armies win the game in one final battle/several engagements of attrition?
23 Sep 2017, 15:14 PM
#7
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2272 | Subs: 1

23 Sep 2017, 15:19 PM
#8
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

Macro and economic RTS are boring

Depends on the player....and game.
23 Sep 2017, 15:34 PM
#9
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7

Macro and economic RTS are boring


If you have 20+ units with a good counter and synergy system they aren't boring at all.

23 Sep 2017, 16:00 PM
#10
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066

Most unique RTS games work because they do their own thing. Although most games use the same principles, they take it in different directions. When a unique RTS game tries to do things that don´t belong to its genre, like DOW3, we see it fail.

People need to realize the rough times Relic went through during the creation, release and post release period of CoH2. The fact that we have a CoH2 with multiple factions and dlc is a miracle on its own.

DOW3 however, that was a pure representation of the current Relic at its fullest potential. AOE4 will be interesting indeed.
23 Sep 2017, 16:47 PM
#11
avatar of le_saucisson_masque

Posts: 485 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Sep 2017, 17:29 PMLeo251
It is a fact that Relic totally failed at balancing this game through this 5 years.
Do you imagine them balancing AoE4 with at least 10 or 12 factions?? lol



look at other game companies, the first one i can think about is blizzard that managed to balance a game like overwatch with almost 20 COMPLETELY different heroes (per exemple, one got 150hp and another 600 hp, the first is hitscan, the second is shooting projectiles, and still both heroes are EQUAL and got almost same win ratio at high level).
Then you go back on coh2 and realize how much easier it is to balance this game compared to overwatch and laugh at relic :lolol:

let's be realistic, RELIC can't make a game balanced, even when it require very little work like at the release of coh2 when there was only soviet & osther, so don't except Age Of Empire to be balanced.

Because even if the factions in Age of empire share some similar units, there are still a lot of difference between these factions that require knowledge and work to make them work together and overall make the game fun to play.
Can't believe microsoft was dumb enough to tell relic to make the next game of one of the most loved game series..
23 Sep 2017, 18:10 PM
#12
avatar of miragefla
Developer Relic Badge

Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13



look at other game companies, the first one i can think about is blizzard that managed to balance a game like overwatch with almost 20 COMPLETELY different heroes (per exemple, one got 150hp and another 600 hp, the first is hitscan, the second is shooting projectiles, and still both heroes are EQUAL and got almost same win ratio at high level).


You do realize things like RTS have far more interactions between various factors than in Overwatch.

On AoE, balance likely won't be as hard to achieve, however, as the factions will not be as diverse if we're talking about units. It'll likely come more down to economic factors and anything regarding macro.
24 Sep 2017, 01:40 AM
#13
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



Isn't it the other way around where meta is even more static by dictated build orders while the best microed armies win the game in one final battle/several engagements of attrition?


Besides the first minutes of the game, i think there's too many variables to be talking about "static" build orders. Besides which type of focus strat one might go (turtle (def), boom (eco) or rush (agro)), there's a point on which someone just adapts accordingly what you scout or what the maps has to offer.

There is a lot of micro going on, i might have to clarify it.
But there is no such thing as spellcasters (unit with active abilities) on AoE (monks or demos can barely be classified as such) so most of the fights is about general positioning and kitting in the case of ranged units. The game has a lot of back n forth and the engagements may seem slow. That's why i say more simple if we compare it to other much faster/complex RTS. That doesn't mean easier, because the game has a heavy reliance on the economic aspect. If you can't focus on macroing while attacking, it's almost falls flat as you are not pushing any advantage.


...


Sigh, because comparing a team based MOBA-esque FPS with a mostly 1v1 oriented strategy game has so much in common...o_O

I guess you are comparing Tracer with Roadhog which can be further away from each other. You have to also take into account W/L with PICK RATE, because if that would be the case, Symmetra would be OP. If we talk about competitive, the hero pool is quite small. Something like 4 heroes above 75% pick rate, other 4 above 50% and 2 or 3 niche picks. The rest are under 5-10% and some never use. Which basically is half the roster.

Balance wise: Beyblade meta? Triple tank? Dive meta? McGod and pre nerf Widow? Almost a whole year of Ana? Stacking heroes on first seasons (Winston/Tracer stacks)

I found it curious how you mention blizzard and you don't talk about SC2. The competitive playerbase was not quite happy with them for several years and the lack of "support" to keep the game alive even if it's one or the most popular RTS. They had similar issues balance wise with the mentality of releasing a patch and waiting 3 months till "people figure it out". This sounds quite familiar.


Balance is not what Blizzard shines at. Product quality and in the case of OW, community interaction (Hi this is Jeff from the OW team...) and constant patches and support for their games. Note: having a 30million best seller game helps quite a lot.

Not everything is greener on the other side. Relic did quite a lot for this game but fall flat WAY too much on certain aspects which at this point is beating a dead horse. Check other RTS developers. They haven't done much better. Reality is: people who grew up and play during the golden era of RTS are too old, and the new generation just prefer MOBAs for their taste of "strategic play".

I don't feel the game is gonna be a game breaking success for a simple reason. W10 + W store exclusivity. GLHF Bill.

24 Sep 2017, 16:20 PM
#14
avatar of Tiger Baron

Posts: 3145 | Subs: 2

Here you can find more info about AoE4


That site has no other info on AoE4 besides the game trailer.
28 Sep 2017, 05:00 AM
#15
avatar of SturmtigerCobra
Patrion 310

Posts: 964 | Subs: 11


I don't feel the game is gonna be a game breaking success for a simple reason. W10 + W store exclusivity. GLHF Bill.


Sorry to correct you but only W10 exclusivity has been confirmed. AoE4 windows store exclusive is just a fan assumption that is not supported by any reliable source. Contrary to popular belief the opposite seems to be happening with MS testing Windows store/steam crossplay.

I posted this in AoE4 thread;
https://www.coh2.org/topic/62922/relic-working-on-age-of-empires-4/page/4#post_id630270

Recent news is Killer Instinct is coming to Steam (owned by MS). Killer Instinct is win10/xbox. The studio (Rare) and IP are owned by Microsoft.
https://news.xbox.com/2017/09/27/killer-instinct-now-available-on-steam/

More "news" related to this important ms/sega partnership is coming but here are a bit more to "connect the dots";
Confirmed; Win10 + Steam crossplay are coming
Check below links MS are testing Cross-network Play; Win10 store (xbox live using Universal Windows Platform) + Steam using steamworks/win32

Rise of Nations: Extended Edition Comes to Windows Store with Cross-network Play on Sept. 14 (posted August 18, 2017)
*SNIP*
At Xbox, we support creating moments that connect gamers with their friends in new and innovative ways. In support of this, today, I am proud to announce that the historic RTS hit Rise of Nations: Extended Edition is coming to Windows Store on September 14th, with the unique cross-network play feature that enables fans to challenge up to eight players online with Windows 10, across Xbox Live and Steam. We want gamers to enjoy this classic Game of the Year-winning RTS through sharing multiplayer experiences with their friends, and it’s now a reality for Windows 10 gamers to join over two million Rise of Nations fans on Steam in mastering 6,000 years of history, from the Ancient Age to the Information Age.

For a limited time, Rise of Nations: Extended Edition will be available in Windows Store for only $4.99 USD. The regular price will be $19.99.
Read more at https://news.xbox.com/2017/08/18/rise-of-nations-extended-edition-windows-store/#uj4Fo83oPCK0SLV1.99

Microsoft acquires classic civilization game Rise of Nations, future games hinted by Xbox head (Sunday, Jun 1, 2014)
https://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft-acquires-rise-nations-ip-future-games-hinted-xbox-head

Phil Spencer also just got a big promotion (Executive vice president of gaming) and now in total control of MS gaming division reporting directly to MS CEO.
Microsoft executives and Board of Directors members
https://news.microsoft.com/leadership/
https://news.microsoft.com/exec/phil-spencer-2/
Xbox chief Phil Spencer gets a promotion and a seat at Microsoft's exec table
https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/306062/Xbox_chief_Phil_Spencer_gets_a_promotion_and_a_seat_at_Microsofts_exec_table.php
https://www.destructoid.com/phil-spencer-is-movin-on-up-at-microsoft-462099.phtml

For those that do not understand what this means. Phil Spencer is now considered to be the top gaming executive in MS and all the other executives will listen to him including the CEO (not the other way around). The CEO is just a business executive that is taking advice from each division leaders.
That the MS CEO want Phil Spencer as his personal gaming adviser is a huge vote of confidence is Spencer's leadership abilities and vision for MS gaming.
Phil Spencer's Xbox promotion! What does it mean?


Top gaming revenue;


https://www.microsoft.com/investor/reports/ar16/index.html
Our gaming roadmap over the next 18 months is anchored by two significant console releases – Xbox One S and Project Scorpio – and investments in growth areas such as virtual reality, video, and eSports.

Quantum computing, theorized for decades by some of the world’s greatest minds as a way to harness the very building blocks of matter and energy for unimaginable computing capabilities and intelligence, is emerging today as a feasible technology. Its realization will bring new power to cure disease and address global challenges like climate change. Our people and partners right now are solving the hard problems of experimental and theoretical physics, mathematics, and computer science that will accelerate quantum computing’s becoming a reality.


On a personal note;

I'm not posting here to win a popularity contest but to foster open-minded and informed discussions.
I do hate/dislike echo chambers a lot more than I hate flame wars. For those community leaders that is not paying attention. Echo chambers and safe space/social justice warriors are rapidly destroying free speech on the internet that lead to polarisation of society. Unless anyone got plans to fight civil uprising/collapse of society, you better start taking free speech/open-minded discussion a lot more seriously. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Complacency won't keep anyone safe, that's for sure.
The west right now got a lot of problems (socially, cultural, economics etc.) and if we don't defend free speech we are pretty much screwed. Especially psychological warfare and financial warfare are very evil and if both women and men do not come together to fight this evil, have fun watching your country die. Society needs BOTH strong women and men. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I'm not joking when I say, please inform yourself because many more men will get into trouble in the years to come. Staying safe, include staying informed.

The great overlords of automated censorship include social media. This guy from TED predicted this years ago how social media would destroy free speech.
Beware online "filter bubbles" | Eli Pariser

https://www.ted.com/talks/eli_pariser_beware_online_filter_bubbles#t-38380

Relic safe space/echo chamber vs Reality:

28 Sep 2017, 17:01 PM
#16
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2


Sorry to correct you but only W10 exclusivity has been confirmed. AoE4 windows store exclusive is just a fan assumption that is not supported by any reliable source.

snip information...


Well, at least there's that. Still W10 :(

Thx for the info.
I've also heard rumours that they flight some pros (Vipper/Daut) to Vancouver. It might be for AoE 2 HD DLC (Skybox Labs) but it might not hurt visiting Relic right?
4 Oct 2017, 13:54 PM
#17
avatar of Bravus

Posts: 503

Permanently Banned
Yeah, age 4 will be like this:

10x cannon fires on foot of a tshirt soldier to kill.

You make a #%$$$ tower that are killed by 4 tshirt guys ez.

They will create some "mortar" that have GPS and radar with perfect shots.

They will create some "sniper" in that no range game to bee op.

Rip age4.
4 Oct 2017, 16:29 PM
#18
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7



Well, at least there's that. Still W10 :(

Thx for the info.
I've also heard rumours that they flight some pros (Vipper/Daut) to Vancouver. It might be for AoE 2 HD DLC (Skybox Labs) but it might not hurt visiting Relic right?


Forgotten Expansions tends to publish another AoE2 expansion set in autumm/winter (like the did Rise of Rajas last year in November/December ;))
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Lady Xenarra: Ah, the gren faust-replacing-rifles bug/exploit. :ph34r:
Today, 18:24 PM
aerafield: CoH3 high elo is truly the dumbest CoH experience that ever existed
Today, 17:25 PM
aerafield: @OKSpitfire tbh I find it quite challenging to get the Pershing in time, having to suffer through the CoH3 tickrate and this endless bullshit meta of massive blobs going back and forth to the forward heal truck
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OKSpitfire: Well... going to be seeing the Pershing a lot for a little while, that thing is a monster.
Today, 11:44 AM
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Willy Pete: Pershing is absurd, but ive still only gotten to use it against AI
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Lady Xenarra: WTB Pershing for Axis, that is all :lolol:
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donofsandiego: :clap:
Last Thursday, 02:34 AM
donofsandiego: Return of the chatGPT writing prompt. Lets see how shinasukac responds to these questions utilizing the Socratic Method. Maybe he will give us an interesting look into his opinions
Last Thursday, 02:34 AM
Willy Pete: I havent even seen a pershing yet. Coh3 games still move too fast for it lol
Last Thursday, 00:30 AM
shinasukac: kingtiger=kingjoker
Last Wednesday, 16:27 PM
Lady Xenarra: Has anyone actually used the KT much? My experience is that the match is usually over long before I get the CPs for it
Last Wednesday, 14:35 PM
Rosbone: Can someone message me the day you can look at Coh3 and not face palm yourself in disbelief that actual humans worked on it? Much appreciated.
Last Wednesday, 06:40 AM
Rosbone: The only way to feel good about Coh3 is to never look at Coh3. Once you see it, you cant unsee it.
Last Wednesday, 06:37 AM
Rosbone: Observer mode sucks, player stats pages are scatter brained mess, etc etc etc
Last Wednesday, 06:35 AM
Rosbone: It is really hard to tell people to buy the DLC with feeling like they are throwing their money down the toilet for a nearly dead game. But Big Tonks!!! Oh well, not my problem.
Last Tuesday, 18:12 PM
Rosbone: No 4v4 maps, busted menus 2 years after release, still have not fixed janky sounds people have complained about for over 2 years, etc etc.
Last Tuesday, 18:10 PM
Rosbone: And the skirmish menus are still at a BETA level. Just the largest game play mode completely ignored... again.
Last Tuesday, 18:09 PM
Willy Pete: Oh wtf. Yeah the crossing remake was in the 2v2 demo. No more 3s and 4s is a bummer tho
Last Tuesday, 16:42 PM
aerafield: What? No, he means that all the new maps are for 1v1. Though Im pretty sure they will be playable in 2v2 as well
Last Tuesday, 15:50 PM
Willy Pete: Are the maps really locked behind dlc? Surely they must be in the regular update
Last Tuesday, 15:22 PM
Rosbone: I would like to join in celebration with the 9% of Coh3 MP players who are getting ALL of the new maps. Woohoo! #3Tards
21 Feb 2025, 19:22 PM
OKSpitfire: I hope that at least one of heavies is a like-for-like reskin of the coh 2 ISU-152. I miss that thing.
21 Feb 2025, 10:23 AM
Rosbone: Buy our cool new large tanks that will never get played on the 4 new 1v1 maps added. Perfect synergy! :facepalm:
20 Feb 2025, 19:23 PM
Rosbone: Everyone ready for some deep penetration :snfPeter:
20 Feb 2025, 17:13 PM
Lady Xenarra: I'm sure the ppl who defended it as balanced for Allies will be screaming like they got scaled with boiling water, in COH3. How the tables turn.
20 Feb 2025, 11:33 AM
Willy Pete: I think it was nuts with any engine damage. Especially on superheavies
20 Feb 2025, 07:03 AM
aerafield: Personally I think without the ram ability, it's worse than loiters for example
20 Feb 2025, 00:09 AM
Willy Pete: It combined well with most slowing abilities, not just ram stuns
19 Feb 2025, 23:36 PM
Willy Pete: Only??? I think not being able to shoot it down and the ramp up effect also had something to do with it
19 Feb 2025, 23:34 PM
Willy Pete: Really
19 Feb 2025, 23:30 PM
aerafield: AT overwatch was broken only because it came with the faction of T34 ramming
19 Feb 2025, 22:29 PM
Willy Pete: Love to see Relic really learning from their past mistakes. Let's bring back the dumbest ability in coh2, and charge money for it
19 Feb 2025, 20:34 PM
Willy Pete: New DAK commander will have AT overwatch as alternate choice to elefant
19 Feb 2025, 20:33 PM
aaa: Funy thing new players dont know that. And are trying to compete vs hacks
19 Feb 2025, 10:33 AM
aaa: Online gaming is trash in general, not just coh. On high level there are all cheats in most games
19 Feb 2025, 10:24 AM
aaa: 2 cheaters in 3 days. MH and DH
19 Feb 2025, 09:57 AM
aerafield: I am a simple man, I build Humvees with Pathfinders and Missile Launchers inside, I am happy
18 Feb 2025, 20:57 PM
Lady Xenarra: aerafield lamevee spammer confirmed :nahnah:
18 Feb 2025, 20:42 PM
aerafield: those who know, know: https://www.reddit.com/r/CompanyOfHeroes/s/fPk4yLIgmK
18 Feb 2025, 15:40 PM
adamírcz: Might be onto somethin here, combine side armour existing, maps where flanking is a viable option, and hopefully also heavies actually being less manouverable than mediums (lookin at you coh2), and it might be fun gameplay
17 Feb 2025, 13:39 PM
Willy Pete: Shouldn't coh3 heavies actually have insane front armor values? The glory days of 400+ Kt armor wouldn't be as bad when side armor is a thing. Not to say its a good idea lol
14 Feb 2025, 23:14 PM
aerafield: But then again, maybe CoH3 superheavies should actually have insane armor values because the whole game is designed for the clumsy & inept anyway :snfPeter:
14 Feb 2025, 23:04 PM
aerafield: It's like you have to coordinate an entire orchestra of abilities and the correct units, meanwhile your opponent just clicks his 1 superheavy tank occasionally...
14 Feb 2025, 23:01 PM
aerafield: the giga frontal armor also made these units too oppressive in average or low ELO games
14 Feb 2025, 22:59 PM
aerafield: Massive HP pool but reasonable amount of armor is way healthier design
14 Feb 2025, 22:57 PM
aerafield: Say what you want, but the titanium frontal armor design of coh2 superheavies was bullshit. Too many bad players not getting punished for their bad micro because penetration RNG carries them
14 Feb 2025, 22:57 PM
Willy Pete: Also the attack ground with the pak40 looked perfect, that Pershing should be dead
14 Feb 2025, 19:18 PM
Willy Pete: Ahh just saw the other one that died. Some bad rng I think but there was an AT gun at med range for a chunk of that fight
14 Feb 2025, 19:14 PM
Willy Pete: Which KT? I saw one got almost deleted but it also showed its side to a hellcat AND the m5. I think the player even admitted he got lucky
14 Feb 2025, 19:10 PM
Lady Xenarra: I understand that the devs want to sell the Allied part of the DLC, but the KT got swiss cheesed like a COH2 bunker on treads :S
14 Feb 2025, 15:16 PM
SupremeStefan: They should make dlc separataly for axis and alies
14 Feb 2025, 10:28 AM
SupremeStefan: 25$ is actually a ok price for 40 abilites = 8 commanders = 4 battlegroups. But problem is that it comes in bundle
14 Feb 2025, 10:24 AM
Willy Pete: Have they shown the actual trees yet for the new commanders? Skimmed through the deep dive today, didnt see em
13 Feb 2025, 22:29 PM
Rosbone: Big Tonk boners incoming :hansGASM:
13 Feb 2025, 17:38 PM
donofsandiego: Probably not
12 Feb 2025, 14:57 PM
Lone-Wolf: Hi guys. Error code -4. Any fixes?
08 Feb 2025, 17:09 PM
donofsandiego: Probably not
07 Feb 2025, 16:57 PM

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