I thought I would quickly add this discussion here since this unit is getting the most talk in a thread meant for more general feedback. I will add a poll shortly after as I'm typing this in a hurry. Also here's a preview on what we had in-mind for the next changes due to feedback.
Total Changes
-Cost from 350/125 to 400/145.
-Accuracy from 0.06/0.05/0.03 to 0.055/0.04/0.03.
-HVAP accuracy from 0.06/0.05/0.04 to 0.055/0.04/0.03.
-Penetration from 230/210/200.
-Health from 480 to 640.
-Penetration from 240/220/200 to 280/230/200.
FBP: M36 Jackson Discussion
31 Jul 2017, 17:45 PM
#1
31 Jul 2017, 19:32 PM
#2
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Accuracy change seems in the right direction but the vet 2 accuracy buff negates most of its impact.
Either lower accuracy a bit more or replace accuracy bonus with a penetration bonus.
In addition since the unit become more durable one should consider lowering mobility since only the Panther can keep up with it.
Either lower accuracy a bit more or replace accuracy bonus with a penetration bonus.
In addition since the unit become more durable one should consider lowering mobility since only the Panther can keep up with it.
31 Jul 2017, 21:54 PM
#3
Posts: 3145 | Subs: 2
In my experience USF needs to put some meat in front of the Jackson to take the hits.
In the few times where me and my teammates were coordinated and they had some beefy tanks in front of my Jacksons we did some splendid gameplay together.
That's also the reason why I gave out the idea for an upgrade for the Jackson to the M36B1 that uses the Sherman hull, or for the M4A2 Jumbo to be added to provide the USF with a meatshield for their Jacksons because if we're honest, that's the only thing the USF lacks, vehicles that can take a hit, except for the Pershing of course, but it's a singular heavy tank that's more akin to the Panther and it can't be everywhere at once to provide cover for your Jacksons.
In the few times where me and my teammates were coordinated and they had some beefy tanks in front of my Jacksons we did some splendid gameplay together.
That's also the reason why I gave out the idea for an upgrade for the Jackson to the M36B1 that uses the Sherman hull, or for the M4A2 Jumbo to be added to provide the USF with a meatshield for their Jacksons because if we're honest, that's the only thing the USF lacks, vehicles that can take a hit, except for the Pershing of course, but it's a singular heavy tank that's more akin to the Panther and it can't be everywhere at once to provide cover for your Jacksons.
31 Jul 2017, 22:10 PM
#4
Posts: 1273
Changes are great, but I never managed to get a proper 4on4 slugfest in the FBP. I got a fine 2on2 and USF felt like having some kind of endgame with the new Jacksons.
31 Jul 2017, 22:35 PM
#5
Posts: 851 | Subs: 1
I thought I would quickly add this discussion
Upcoming Changes for 1.2:
-Cost from 380/135 to 400/145
-Accuracy for standard and HVAP from 0.06/0.05/0.03 to 0.055/0.04/0.03
-Far penetration from 180 to 200.
Thats more like it!
Doesnt feel too OP if the cost is high
That's also the reason why I gave out the idea for an upgrade for the Jackson to the M36B1 that uses the Sherman hull, or for the M4A2 Jumbo to be added to provide the USF with a meatshield for their Jacksons because if we're honest, that's the only thing the USF lacks
Thats what infrantry section is for
31 Jul 2017, 23:33 PM
#6
Posts: 1002 | Subs: 2
Just curious, how do the pen changes affect HVAP? Doesn't HVAP use an entirely different "weapon?"
31 Jul 2017, 23:34 PM
#7
Posts: 611
I would like to know,
1. What is the range of p4 and stugs, if jackson range is going to be 60.
2. How often will jackson hit at max range.
3. On a map like Kholodny Ferma where tanks are engaging around centre vp, what range is that roughly. No
point obsessing about max range if all meaningful combat is closer to medium range.
4. What is Ostheer's counter to the jackson in the eyes of the mod team.
All in all I would like to see improvements to p4 and panther accuracy on the move in parallel to jackson changes.
1. What is the range of p4 and stugs, if jackson range is going to be 60.
2. How often will jackson hit at max range.
3. On a map like Kholodny Ferma where tanks are engaging around centre vp, what range is that roughly. No
point obsessing about max range if all meaningful combat is closer to medium range.
4. What is Ostheer's counter to the jackson in the eyes of the mod team.
All in all I would like to see improvements to p4 and panther accuracy on the move in parallel to jackson changes.
1 Aug 2017, 00:07 AM
#8
Posts: 712
The only thing i was worried about is its health, i dont really care about the other things, if it doesnt die with 3 atg shots i will be happy
1 Aug 2017, 00:10 AM
#9
Posts: 2742
The Jackson changes are a direct result of other changes (Elefant and JT damage reductions). This is the explicit reasoning for the changes to the Jackson: that they must survive two rounds from Elefant and JT. (It has all but been decided that no other combination of units or AT are valid for consideration in FBP. It must be 2 shots from these units that Jacksons must survive.)
But that said, these changes necessitate other changes, including ones to Ostheer teching costs, and specifically concerning the Panther.
Essentially I see a change that require changes that are contingent on other changes that aren't in the scope of the mod.
If that's a strong enough basis for implementing changes then I don't know wtf I'm doing trying to contribute to attempts to balance this game.
But that said, these changes necessitate other changes, including ones to Ostheer teching costs, and specifically concerning the Panther.
Essentially I see a change that require changes that are contingent on other changes that aren't in the scope of the mod.
If that's a strong enough basis for implementing changes then I don't know wtf I'm doing trying to contribute to attempts to balance this game.
Strategic Territory Points Mod:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=604491510
Classic resource points!
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=604491510
Classic resource points!
1 Aug 2017, 00:53 AM
#10
Posts: 245
Just trust the balance team. They've never made things worse. Sometimes a different bad, but not overall worse and a least different is interesting.
1 Aug 2017, 02:04 AM
#11
Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1
The only thing i was worried about is its health, i dont really care about the other things, if it doesnt die with 3 atg shots i will be happy
THIS.
1 Aug 2017, 02:23 AM
#12
Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13
I would like to know,
1. What is the range of p4 and stugs, if jackson range is going to be 60.
2. How often will jackson hit at max range.
3. On a map like Kholodny Ferma where tanks are engaging around centre vp, what range is that roughly. No
point obsessing about max range if all meaningful combat is closer to medium range.
4. What is Ostheer's counter to the jackson in the eyes of the mod team.
All in all I would like to see improvements to p4 and panther accuracy on the move in parallel to jackson changes.
1. 40 and 50 respectively.
2. Will hit the StuG G 60% of the time at maximum if it is stationary. 69% vs the Panzer IV.
4. Infantry-based AT such as ATGs or Shrecks are its hardest counters. Panthers and StuG Gs end up in the soft counter role since both units combat each other, though they also hardcounter the other two units in the USF Major tier. In a slugfest a StuG G should still win vs the Jackson due to its rate of fire should you close at an odd angle or catch it by surprise. I guess mass mediums could also work depending if the Jackson gets any pricer where it's not cost effective to mass Jacksons against medium tank groups.
Of course the issue is distance, but our main thing will likely be adjust the Jackson's accuracy at this point so it's less viable against medium tanks.
My personal thing is that I want to improve Panther and PIV but the usual scope locks us out. I tried to get the Panther in as a TD/TH to no avail.
1 Aug 2017, 05:53 AM
#13
Posts: 3145 | Subs: 2
Thats more like it!
Doesnt feel too OP if the cost is high
Thats what infrantry section is for
I think you're confusing them for the Soviets.
1 Aug 2017, 07:42 AM
#14
Posts: 935
Jackson need accuracy comapre to live.
ABout m36 cost.If you lose first jackson what is easy. Axis may snow ball their armor in team game very hard. Even in live its problematic already.
ABout m36 cost.If you lose first jackson what is easy. Axis may snow ball their armor in team game very hard. Even in live its problematic already.
1 Aug 2017, 10:07 AM
#15
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
2. Will hit the StuG G 60% of the time at maximum if it is stationary. 69% vs the Panzer IV.
That is the chance to score a "natural" hit. Chance is actually higher due to "collision" hits.
1 Aug 2017, 10:18 AM
#16
Posts: 1273
That is the chance to score a "natural" hit. Chance is actually higher due to "collision" hits.
You are right! But, I'd just stick to absolute values with the standard armor-hit chances calculation otherwise it may be pedantic fault-finding. It will only create genuinely confusion. If you must, do picture yourself a tilde (~) before numbers if you must be approximate with chance to hit that may occur due to other lesser gameplay effects.
1 Aug 2017, 11:04 AM
#17
Posts: 1593 | Subs: 1
1. 40 and 50 respectively.
2. Will hit the StuG G 60% of the time at maximum if it is stationary. 69% vs the Panzer IV.
4. Infantry-based AT such as ATGs or Shrecks are its hardest counters. Panthers and StuG Gs end up in the soft counter role since both units combat each other, though they also hardcounter the other two units in the USF Major tier. In a slugfest a StuG G should still win vs the Jackson due to its rate of fire should you close at an odd angle or catch it by surprise. I guess mass mediums could also work depending if the Jackson gets any pricer where it's not cost effective to mass Jacksons against medium tank groups.
Of course the issue is distance, but our main thing will likely be adjust the Jackson's accuracy at this point so it's less viable against medium tanks.
My personal thing is that I want to improve Panther and PIV but the usual scope locks us out. I tried to get the Panther in as a TD/TH to no avail.
Infantry based AT and atg, argh..
1 Aug 2017, 17:58 PM
#18
Posts: 393
Do note on the Jackson it's likely only get a slight adjustment now. No more big reworks like Penals.
What is being discussed to ease the unit in:
1. Less accuracy. Primarily meant to make the M36 worse against medium vehicles and slightly worse at firing at distance.
2. Higher cost back near to the 1.0 levels. Given it's the most mobile TD with 40 sight, good health, good firepower, it should be pricer. This also leaves more room for M4 Shermans rather than just Jacksons and Scotts.
3. Reverting far-range penetration back to normal levels. Since this unit penetrates mediums regularly, no differences there. This is mainly to allow it to keep plinking at heavies, but for best effect, you want to close.
In regards to idea 3, couldn't we just experiment with higher-than-average deflection damage instead of higher penetration as another option?
1 Aug 2017, 19:37 PM
#19
Posts: 626 | Subs: 1
That's also the reason why I gave out the idea for an upgrade for the Jackson to the M36B1 that uses the Sherman hull, or for the M4A2 Jumbo to be added to provide the USF with a meatshield for their Jacksons because if we're honest, that's the only thing the USF lacks, vehicles that can take a hit, except for the Pershing of course, but it's a singular heavy tank that's more akin to the Panther and it can't be everywhere at once to provide cover for your Jacksons.
+1
Jumbo would be nice. Unlockable after all techs for example. USF lacks of serious late game units
Stronger jakson is a step in right direction but bigger diversity would be welcome as well.
1 Aug 2017, 19:54 PM
#20
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
I thought I would quickly add this discussion here since this unit is getting the most talk in a thread meant for more general feedback. I will add a poll shortly after as I'm typing this in a hurry. Also here's a preview on what we had in-mind for the next changes due to feedback.
Current Changes:
-Cost to 380/135 from 350/125
-Health from 480 to 600
-Penetration from 240/220/200 to 280/230/180
-Accuracy for standard and HVAP from 0.06/0.05/0.04 to 0.06/0.05/0.03
Upcoming Changes for 1.2:
-Cost from 380/135 to 400/145
-Accuracy for standard and HVAP from 0.06/0.05/0.03 to 0.055/0.04/0.03
-Far penetration from 180 to 200.
I like the change but this cost will put an end to the Jackson on 1vs1. USF will be completely helpless vs medium rush.
So as an idea why not simply putting an upgrade to the Jackson, adding health and whatever. So we have a Jackson live version + 1 upgrade per Jackson so you can turn one to be more powerful late game. Something like 100munition to get your final version of the Jackson.
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