Fall Balance Preview: Scope Additions

I suggest you should try OKW in 1v1 a bit and you will see that they aren't as P as you think

never claimed that (I kinda never play 1v1) tho I dont see how these changes I mentioned would (negatively) affect 1v1.

In 1v1 OKW isn't really broken, but vs double OKW in 2v2 it's a whole different story (FBP wants to adress teamgames only)

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Thank you very much for that detailed response - I'll admit that I was initially skeptical of the Brace change in your revamp mod but after reading your response the change makes a lot more sense. 75% more HP would give Mortar Pits about 1200 HP which would allow them to tank more damage making up them being more vulnerable to flanks and the like. I think as long as there is a good balance with the MP being able to defend itself from counter-indirect fire then that's a good route to go - that way enemy mortars are still able to counter MPs in sufficient numbers without the god-awful "I repaired during Brace so now you have to retreat because I can outlast you at the front line" dynamic that MPs have now. Generally speaking I think indirect fire Manpower invests should yield roughly equal results for both sides. (2 OST Mortars should be able to duel with an upgraded Pit fairly reliably)

Hopefully relic would consider at least testing this in the preview patch since the MP appears to be in scope (though I'm not sure if Brace itself is since this would also affect the Bofors and 17 Pounder).

i agree with everything smith says. but i dont agree with inf killing it within a few secs. they should be more effective but not crazy effective to where they die to fast. cuz ppl wont go support weapons at all they will just blob to ur emplacements making them useless.if a unit does damage to the pit like it would a fuel cache then maybe cuz it take a little while to hurt it

Thank you very much for that detailed response - I'll admit that I was initially skeptical of the Brace change in your revamp mod but after reading your response the change makes a lot more sense. 75% more HP would give Mortar Pits about 1200 HP which would allow them to tank more damage making up them being more vulnerable to flanks and the like. I think as long as there is a good balance with the MP being able to defend itself from counter-indirect fire then that's a good route to go - that way enemy mortars are still able to counter MPs in sufficient numbers without the god-awful "I repaired during Brace so now you have to retreat because I can outlast you at the front line" dynamic that MPs have now. Generally speaking I think indirect fire Manpower invests should yield roughly equal results for both sides. (2 OST Mortars should be able to duel with an upgraded Pit fairly reliably)

Hopefully relic would consider at least testing this in the preview patch since the MP appears to be in scope (though I'm not sure if Brace itself is since this would also affect the Bofors and 17 Pounder).

Bofors doesn't really need brace either. It's a generalist defensive structure that allows

The single #1 reason Bofors requires brace is super-range ISGs in the live version. In both mods (revamp and FBP), ISGs will have to move close enough to the Bofors to fire. This gives the

This allows the British player to screen enemy indirect fire with their bofors, and hammer the mortars/etc with mortar pits that are further behind (though, with barrage and smoke only).

Of course, the goal of Bofors is not to be immortal; it is to eventually die, after having delayed the enemy enough. In the meantime, the Bofors can still afford to be annoying by fending off light vehicles and supporting frontline troops with suppressive barrages.

17 pounder is already beyond useless and will require a massive overhaul (see revamp mod), to get at least one niche. For the time being the 17 pounder is an annoying punchbag to kill and nothing more. Thus, nerfing brace from 17-pounder will at least serve as a benevolent warning for people to stop throwing their resources on such a useless unit.

i agree with everything smith says. but i dont agree with inf killing it within a few secs. they should be more effective but not crazy effective to where they die to fast. cuz ppl wont go support weapons at all they will just blob to ur emplacements making them useless.if a unit does damage to the pit like it would a fuel cache then maybe cuz it take a little while to hurt it

If your emplacements/indirect fire already managed to draw the enemy infantry to your lines, emplacements have already done their job; just your your MGs/infantry to dispatch the enemy.

If you build too many emplacements and had no support troops to fight the enemy blob; well, that's your problem. You shouldn't have gone Sim-City.

The single #1 failure of live-version emplacements is that they keep infantry away, which means that there's no synergy with defensive-oriented Tommies.

New brace bug, for more info visit this replay

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  VS

  Hector

  Zaney

  The new cancer is even better

  by: __deleted__ map: Faymonville Approach

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Its fine if the mortar pit can reach things, its fine if it can survive arty... the problem is that atm the opposing player cannot afford to allow the mortar pit to survive because it is so incredibly deadly! The mortar pits ability (with a little RNG on its side) to two or three shot entire weapon teams or squads is the problem. Lower its lethality and all the associated problems of the mortar pit are immediately mitigated to some degree.

Its fine if the mortar pit can reach things, its fine if it can survive arty... the problem is that atm the opposing player cannot afford to allow the mortar pit to survive because it is so incredibly deadly! The mortar pits ability (with a little RNG on its side) to two or three shot entire weapon teams or squads is the problem. Lower its lethality and all the associated problems of the mortar pit are immediately mitigated to some degree.

Lowering lethality won't solve anything

If you lower lethality, the pit is just going to get wrecked by mortars/ISGs. The moment you hit brace, the pit is dead.

Unless you have a 2nd mortar pit.

Hello sim city.

Unless you transfer the mortar pit to the USF faction, tommies won't cut it to attack enemy indirect fires.

Unless you transfer the mortar pit to the USF faction, tommies won't cut it to attack enemy indirect fires.

...?

This patch is clearly meant for spamfest aka 3v3+ LoL even bofors can be bringed back to life now. I would rather see isg back to 320 and smoke, not this version.

I have one fckin solution, just give brits mobile mortar, and make emplacement as a mort trench with bonus range etc. without brace posibility.

This patch obviously is about late game and teamgames --> that's why they are not in scope. Changing cons will have to consider the whole soviet early game mechanic, which is for another patch.

Why don't you play some mod games and try cons with the new maxims. you have to understand cons are a support unit, not main battle unit


What's much WORSE IS THAT THEY COMPLETELY LEFT AOUT THE $%/&%$%%BRACE (!!!!!!!)

This patch will be in september-november, cons patch will be in next summer ?
Why support unit cost 240 like line infatry and why reinforce of support cons are more then line infatry ? :thinking:
Hope to see it from you Donnie in new patch, coz all we see from its maxim spam, penal spam. Show Spoiler

Lowering lethality won't solve anything

If you lower lethality, the pit is just going to get wrecked by mortars/ISGs. The moment you hit brace, the pit is dead.

Unless you have a 2nd mortar pit.

Hello sim city.

Unless you transfer the mortar pit to the USF faction, tommies won't cut it to attack enemy indirect fires.

If you need to increase its raw health to lower its lethality then do it. In 1v1 where you cant get 3/4 players to target the same pit, its damn near impossible to kill vs a good player. In they go sim-city then its even harder!

I cant tell you what they are like in team games, but in 1v1 i can tell you that they are far too powerful.

If you need to increase its raw health to lower its lethality then do it. In 1v1 where you cant get 3/4 players to target the same pit, its damn near impossible to kill vs a good player. In they go sim-city then its even harder!

I cant tell you what they are like in team games, but in 1v1 i can tell you that they are far too powerful.

I am referring to the precise changes in revamp mod:
- Brace effectively removed
- Durability vs indirect fire increased
- Durability vs small arms fire radically decreased

I am referring to the precise changes in revamp mod:
- Brace effectively removed
- Durability vs indirect fire increased
- Durability vs small arms fire radically decreased

Okay thats fine, but that still doesn't remove the situation where the player facing the mortar pit MUST kill it to enjoy a reasonable chance of winning. The player that build the mortar pit knows that once he builds it, the opposing plays primary target will be that mortar pit thus giving the Brit player a strategic advantage as well as the best low tier indirect fire unit in the game (that doesn't bleed).

The problem is that you cannot play around the mortar pit in 1v1, you cannot ignore it, you have to kill it, that is that needs to change.

While we are at it, may I ask why the StugE needs TWP removed?

While we are at it, may I ask why the StugE needs TWP removed?

My guess is someone won a match using it in a replay.

Better if add mini-bunker buster than pitle MG-42. It would be suit the role as "assault gun".

My guess is someone won a match using it in a replay.

In a historical way it makes sense as the StuG E was still an assault gun (assault -> storm something) while the later war StuGs (StuG IV and Stug III F/G) were used mainly as Anti Tank. Target Weak Point is AT and the StuG E wasn't meant to tackle any tanks as it even suffered against the armor of the T34/76.

But gameplay wise - Who knows.

While we are at it, may I ask why the StugE needs TWP removed?

All TWP abilities have been turned into timed abilities to prevent the issue of doubletap shooting, but to also allow them to make easier to aim. That's not possible to do with Stug-E, due to its curved projectile.

The pintle MG is there to act as a placeholder of sorts.

All TWP abilities have been turned into timed abilities to prevent the issue of doubletap shooting, but to also allow them to make easier to aim. That's not possible to do with Stug-E, due to its curved projectile.

The pintle MG is there to act as a placeholder of sorts.

So are you unwilling to change your mind about the mortar pit? What evidence do you need to possibly change your mind?

So are you unwilling to change your mind about the mortar pit? What evidence do you need to possibly change your mind?

I'm always willing to change my mind. However, imo, the point of emplacements is to force the other guy to attack at somepoint (since emplacements can't move), or to focus on a different area of the map (since emplacements have a smaller range). What emplacements shouldn't do is force players to attack with particular, slow-moving/situational units (e.g., panzerschrecks, AT guns, tanks), or reinforce an indirect-fire arms-race that will always end in a shitshow.

Low-lethality, short-range pits would be useless vs MGs.
Low lethality, long-range pits would be just as annoying as before when you go sim-city mode.

About the revamp-mod mortar pit? Any sort of evidence that proves that it is no better than live-version/FBP mortar pit mechanics in terms of gameplay/player frustration/faction synergy.

For both live-version and FBP mortar pits, you cannot build mortar pits in open ground. That's because the massive target size means that the mortar pit will get wrecked by Stugs/AT guns etc. This means you need to find a suitable shotblocker to place them behind.

For live-version mortar pits, this restriction doesn't matter, due to 120-range autoattack.

For FBP mortar pits, the restriction will matter a lot more; the mortar pit will only be able to control an area of 85 range around it; for anything beyond that, you require a 40-60 second barrage which can easily be dodged. This means the shotblocker requirement even more harsh than before.

We can't buff mortar pit target-size/hitbox, obviously, without nerfing brace, because absolutely nothing would ever be able to kill them, ever. However, without fixing target-size/hitbox we have mortar pits (and the entire Brit indirect-fire department) that is completely map-dependent.

Nevertheless, in both cases (FBP and live), if the map does have a shotblocker at the right distance, the mortar pit will remain immortal. Especially when sim city commanders are involved.

Emplacements shouldn't be immortal; they should be kinda-replaceable.

The ideal solution for the pit is one that:
- Doesn't require sim city for the pit to be useful
- Punishes players heavily for going sim city

For anyone interested I did a little test regarding volks and their damage done to a fully upgraded mortar pit. (no advanced emplacement commander upgrades used)

2 flamenades with brace activated lowers the mortarpit's helth to 64%
2 flamenades without brace lowers the mortarpit's helth to 19%


It takes 2 volks squads, with no upgrade and no flame nade, 1 min and 11 seconds to destroy a mortarpit, no brace used
It takes 2 volks squads, with no upgrade and no flame nade, 2 min and 14 seconds to destroy a mortarpit, 2x brace used

It takes 2 volks squads, with weapon upgrade and no flame nade, 40 seconds to destroy a mortarpit, no brace used
It takes 2 volks squads, with weapon upgrade and no flame nade, 1 min and 16 seconds to destroy a mortarpit, 1x brace used