Company of Heroes 2 needs Punishment for leaver players

This dont work in coh2.

Coh2 have many crashs and lag problems, and crap maps too.

Csgo is a gay game right now.

+1. Thanks to bugsplat people like Devm would have a permanent ban to this game

And ranks would be slightly different too.
Honestly my least favorite part of coh2.

Hello
Company of Heroes 2 needs a big Punishment for Players who leave the game Whether player leaves in Loading Screen...in Addition RElic should add an Option By which The player who gets Disconnected regrets his Leaving and he should also be Able to Join back to the game.

Thanks!

So you want to punish them for leaving, by giving them option to rejoin? lol

Disconnection for any reason is not a crime or any violation of playing the game.

As long as you give the opportunity to a 'leaver' to join back the game, then everything you said doesn't matter.

The game does make an attempt to reconnect when it detects an issue. Whether it does so properly or has a wide enough parameter to operate is the real issue.

Players who leave for any reason are already punished, it's not being able to play the game. This also affects people who willingly leave or not.

This is my personal opinion, but if YOUR internet sucks it is YOUR problem then.

That is entirely true. But that is also not relevant. People who have internet issues should not be penalized for attempting to play a game they have purchased, as their penalty already exists.

So you want to punish them for leaving, by giving them option to rejoin? lol

Disconnection for any reason is not a crime or any violation of playing the game.

The game does make an attempt to reconnect when it detects an issue. Whether it does so properly or has a wide enough parameter to operate is the real issue.

Players who leave for any reason are already punished, it's not being able to play the game. This also affects people who willingly leave or not.
That is entirely true. But that is also not relevant. People who have internet issues should not be penalized for attempting to play a game they have purchased, as their penalty already exists.

-So you want to punish them for leaving, by giving them option to rejoin? lol >> No you didnt understand what i meant. i dont know if you played CS:GO or not but if a player Leaves he has to join back to Game until the game is completely finished otherwise its gonna be considered a game leaving and the player who left the match must get punished. no one should be able to leave the game without any reason you know ?

of course it is a violation in a competitive match i have no idea why you are saying that ?!
isnt it wasting other players time ? doesnt it cause other teammates lose the match and also lose their leaderboard rank ? (the rank which they put a lot of time on it and a simple Foolish move Winds it up)



-The game does make an attempt to reconnect when it detects an issue. Whether it does so properly or has a wide enough parameter to operate is the real issue. >>> Its not enough at all maybe some ones connection gets disconnected for 2 minutes . do you think its enough for the player to stay in the game ?
that attempting is only for 30 Seconds

-Players who leave for any reason are already punished, it's not being able to play the game >> do they get punished ?! really ? then why i can still play after leaving some matches ?

-People who have internet issues should not be penalized for attempting to play a game they have purchased
>>> What about other people who have also purchased the game ? do they deserve losing because of other persons internet issue ?!

This dont work in coh2.

Coh2 have many crashs and lag problems, and crap maps too.

Csgo is a gay game right now.

then Relic shall fix those crashes and lags to make this work. as i said the player who gets game crash wont get punished but only if he joins back to the game.

Honestly, the easy solution would be if a player leaves before, or in the first 2 minutes of a game, the game shouldn't count towards win or loss records. You don't need to punish people, just stop punishing those left in the game with leavers.

but Still punishment of the player who leaves the game might not be the easiest but its absolutely is the the best solution.

-So you want to punish them for leaving, by giving them option to rejoin? lol >> No you didnt understand what i meant. i dont know if you played CS:GO or not but if a player Leaves he has to join back to Game until the game is completely finished otherwise its gonna be considered a game leaving and the player who left the match must get punished. no one should be able to leave the game without any reason you know ?

of course it is a violation in a competitive match i have no idea why you are saying that ?!
isnt it wasting other players time ? doesnt it cause other teammates lose the match and also lose their leaderboard rank ? (the rank which they put a lot of time on it and a simple Foolish move Winds it up)



-The game does make an attempt to reconnect when it detects an issue. Whether it does so properly or has a wide enough parameter to operate is the real issue. >>> Its not enough at all maybe some ones connection gets disconnected for 2 minutes . do you think its enough for the player to stay in the game ?
that attempting is only for 30 Seconds

-Players who leave for any reason are already punished, it's not being able to play the game >> do they get punished ?! really ? then why i can still play after leaving some matches ?

-People who have internet issues should not be penalized for attempting to play a game they have purchased
>>> What about other people who have also purchased the game ? do they deserve losing because of other persons internet issue ?!

+ The player with bad internet connection must go and play 1vs1 game and shall not be able to join 2v2 & 3v3 & 4v4 games.

+ The player with bad internet connection must go and play 1vs1 game and shall not be able to join 2v2 & 3v3 & 4v4 games.

Now that's just unreasonable...

I dont know if you played CS:GO or not but if a player Leaves he has to join back to Game until the game is completely finished otherwise its gonna be considered a game leaving and the player who left the match must get punished. no one should be able to leave the game without any reason you know ?

I don't play CS:GO, but it also sounds like you haven't either seeing as you didn't actually properly explain how it works.
It's ot up to you or the game to decide whether someone leaves deserves punishment, because frankly you nor the game can ever discern between legit reasons and ragequit. Besides who even want to keep playing with a sore loser?
The answer is another sore loser.

of course it is a violation in a competitive match i have no idea why you are saying that ?!
isnt it wasting other players time ? doesnt it cause other teammates lose the match and also lose their leaderboard rank ? (the rank which they put a lot of time on it and a simple Foolish move Winds it up)

When you play a game you are intentionally wasting your own time for enjoyment. That you don't like it when other people happen to leave mid-game is not a crime.
If the game doesn't compensate and the player that stays loses leaderboard rank, that's the games problem. You don't fix a game problem by punishing players.
This is like banning players who use OP unit call-ins rather than just nerfing the call-ins. That's dumb.

do they get punished ?! really ? then why i can still play after leaving some matches ?

Because you clearly have the North Korean sort of punishment mentality.

What about other people who have also purchased the game ? do they deserve losing because of other persons internet issue ?!

No they don't. If they do, that's not the leaver's fault. It's the game's. You don't blame OKW players if OKW is bugged or OP. You blame the game, blame Relic, and make them fix it.

then Relic shall fix those crashes and lags to make this work. as i said the player who gets game crash wont get punished but only if he joins back to the game.

If they gave a fuck last few years they would have done something about it. But they don't, so they won't. You're just so desperate that you'll lash out at anyone. Don't be no fascist.

but Still punishment of the player who leaves the game might not be the easiest but its absolutely is the the best solution.

No, you just want to punish someone as opposed to looking to fixing the issue. Punishing leavers won't fix the issue, it will just force players to leave the game. At least cheating is a blatant violation that occurs when cheaters STAY in the game.

I don't play CS:GO, but it also sounds like you haven't either seeing as you didn't actually properly explain how it works.
It's ot up to you or the game to decide whether someone leaves deserves punishment, because frankly you nor the game can ever discern between legit reasons and ragequit. Besides who even want to keep playing with a sore loser?
The answer is another sore loser.


When you play a game you are intentionally wasting your own time for enjoyment. That you don't like it when other people happen to leave mid-game is not a crime.
If the game doesn't compensate and the player that stays loses leaderboard rank, that's the games problem. You don't fix a game problem by punishing players.
This is like banning players who use OP unit call-ins rather than just nerfing the call-ins. That's dumb.


Because you clearly have the North Korean sort of punishment mentality.

No they don't. If they do, that's not the leaver's fault. It's the game's. You don't blame OKW players if OKW is bugged or OP. You blame the game, blame Relic, and make them fix it.


If they gave a fuck last few years they would have done something about it. But they don't, so they won't. You're just so desperate that you'll lash out at anyone. Don't be no fascist.

No, you just want to punish someone as opposed to looking to fixing the issue. Punishing leavers won't fix the issue, it will just force players to leave the game. At least cheating is a blatant violation that occurs when cheaters STAY in the game.

1-you nor the game can ever discern between legit reasons and ragequit >> did you read previous posts ? i explained how to realize a guy who gets Disconnected from a guy who just Leaves or Rage Quites ;
if the one who left the game join back to the game it means that he has Lost his Connnection and he has legit reason for leaving game but if he doesn't join back to the game it means that he has Rage quited.

2-When you play a game you are intentionally wasting your own time for enjoyment >> Enjoyment isn't wasting time.

3-If the game doesn't compensate and the player that stays loses leaderboard rank, that's the games problem. You don't fix a game problem by punishing players. >> Punishing player equals with fixing the Problem because by punishing the player who leaves the game without any reason we actually prevent from these problems to happen again.

4-This is like banning players who use OP unit call-ins rather than just nerfing the call-ins. That's dumb. >> these 2 subjects have nothing to do with each other.

5-Because you clearly have the North Korean sort of punishment mentality.>> if its North Korean sort then CS:GO's Sort is also for North Korea but i dont know why are really enjoying that Punishment sort ?! dont you think its fair enough ? if you dont like it then its your Problem not other players who want to have a fair game.

6-that's not the leaver's fault >> Again you have understood nothing of what we said about these options.
obviously its the leavers fault who leaves the game and doesnt join back

7-If they gave a fuck last few years they would have done something about it. But they don't, so they won't. You're just so desperate that you'll lash out at anyone. Don't be no fascist. >> yeah maybe they dont care about it for Coh2 but they will bring this option to Coh3

BTW why you disagree with punishment ?! i think you are 1 of those players who leave in middle of Competitive match and doesnt respect to teammates right. otherwise you should be agree with these terms.

Now that's just unreasonable...

is leaving in middle of 2v2 or 3v3 or 4v4 match reasonable ?

And ranks would be slightly different too.
Honestly my least favorite part of coh2.

+1

1-you nor the game can ever discern between legit reasons and ragequit >> did you read previous posts ? i explained how to realize a guy who gets Disconnected from a guy who just Leaves or Rage Quites ;
if the one who left the game join back to the game it means that he has Lost his Connnection and he has legit reason for leaving game but if he doesn't join back to the game it means that he has Rage quited.

2-When you play a game you are intentionally wasting your own time for enjoyment >> Enjoyment isn't wasting time.

3-If the game doesn't compensate and the player that stays loses leaderboard rank, that's the games problem. You don't fix a game problem by punishing players. >> Punishing player equals with fixing the Problem because by punishing the player who leaves the game without any reason we actually prevent from these problems to happen again.

4-This is like banning players who use OP unit call-ins rather than just nerfing the call-ins. That's dumb. >> these 2 subjects have nothing to do with each other.

5-Because you clearly have the North Korean sort of punishment mentality.>> if its North Korean sort then CS:GO's Sort is also for North Korea but i dont know why are really enjoying that Punishment sort ?! dont you think its fair enough ? if you dont like it then its your Problem not other players who want to have a fair game.

6-that's not the leaver's fault >> Again you have understood nothing of what we said about these options.
obviously its the leavers fault who leaves the game and doesnt join back

7-If they gave a fuck last few years they would have done something about it. But they don't, so they won't. You're just so desperate that you'll lash out at anyone. Don't be no fascist. >> yeah maybe they dont care about it for Coh2 but they will bring this option to Coh3

BTW why you disagree with punishment ?! i think you are 1 of those players who leave in middle of Competitive match and doesnt respect to teammates right. otherwise you should be agree with these terms.

+1

was going to answer to nee, but you did it very well.
Nothing to add

Now that's just unreasonable...

just imagine some one is sitting in his own boat he can Pierce it but if that person is sitting in a ship with other people he is not allowed to Pierce it.

is leaving in middle of 2v2 or 3v3 or 4v4 match reasonable ?

If my teammate is shit or a nub and match is going bad in first five minutes, yes.
If the other team leaves I don't care, they forfeit the match. I won't go to Relic and say Hey they left they should get banned!

did you read previous posts ? i explained how to realize a guy who gets Disconnected from a guy who just Leaves or Rage Quites
if the one who left the game join back to the game it means that he has Lost his Connnection and he has legit reason for leaving game but if he doesn't join back to the game it means that he has Rage quited.

That's a laughable differentiation, because someone who loses connection and cannot rejoin the game is considered to be the same as rage quitting.
Your suggestion doesn't even matter since the game doesn't even do rejoining all that well. The last thing this game needs is to design a flawed punishment system, based entirely on a flawed connection system...and calling that a solution.

Punishing player equals with fixing the Problem because by punishing the player who leaves the game without any reason we actually prevent from these problems to happen again.

Let's pretend this is even true, because it isn't: the result is that far fewer players will play this game.
This isn't true because the causes of leaving a match are diverse and range from intentional to unintentional. The very fact that you want to apply one punishment to all cases makes this a terrible game design consideration. It's even worse than the swear filter.

yeah maybe they dont care about it for Coh2 but they will bring this option to Coh3

We can look to DoW3 to see if they did.

BTW why you disagree with punishment ?! i think you are 1 of those players who leave in middle of Competitive match and doesnt respect to teammates right. otherwise you should be agree with these terms.

Because punishments should always fit the crime, and leaving a match isn't even a crime yet still get a punishment. You just want it to hurt more because you presume it will make everyone not leave matches.

just imagine some one is sitting in his own boat he can Pierce it but if that person is sitting in a ship with other people he is not allowed to Pierce it.

A proper analogy would be that person leaving the boat as it's sinking rather than help seal the leak and you don't want them to go sailing again.
Which isn't always a bad thing, seeing as how sometimes in a match, that translates to the AI taking over and doing a much better job. Sometimes my team even wins.

The player with bad internet connection must go and play 1vs1 game and shall not be able to join 2v2 & 3v3 & 4v4 games.

I'm guessing this is the actual punishment you have in mind?
Because you never actually stated what tat punishment is.

If my teammate is shit or a nub and match is going bad in first five minutes, yes.
If the other team leaves I don't care, they forfeit the match. I won't go to Relic and say Hey they left they should get banned!


That's a laughable differentiation, because someone who loses connection and cannot rejoin the game is considered to be the same as rage quitting.
Your suggestion doesn't even matter since the game doesn't even do rejoining all that well. The last thing this game needs is to design a flawed punishment system, based entirely on a flawed connection system...and calling that a solution.

Let's pretend this is even true, because it isn't: the result is that far fewer players will play this game.
This isn't true because the causes of leaving a match are diverse and range from intentional to unintentional. The very fact that you want to apply one punishment to all cases makes this a terrible game design consideration. It's even worse than the swear filter.

We can look to DoW3 to see if they did.

Because punishments should always fit the crime, and leaving a match isn't even a crime yet still get a punishment. You just want it to hurt more because you presume it will make everyone not leave matches.

A proper analogy would be that person leaving the boat as it's sinking rather than help seal the leak and you don't want them to go sailing again.
Which isn't always a bad thing, seeing as how sometimes in a match, that translates to the AI taking over and doing a much better job. Sometimes my team even wins.

I'm guessing this is the actual punishment you have in mind?
Because you never actually stated what tat punishment is.

1-If my teammate is shit or a nub and match is going bad in first five minutes, yes. >> My Guess was right you are 1 of those loser players who leave the game! this is why you disagree with these terms. you know why ? because if the punishment gets activated you will get banned and thats not good for you and players like you.

2-That's a laughable differentiation, because someone who loses connection and cannot rejoin the game is considered to be the same as rage quitting. >> first of all he can join back . second if he doesnt it means he has rage quitted because if he didn't rage quit he would join back. i think your opinion here is more laughable because you have no idea of what the post is about.

3-Let's pretend this is even true, because it isn't: the result is that far fewer players will play this game. >> Incidentally vice versa ! because most of the people like fair games so most of the people will come and play this game because they are sure there wont be Ridiculous problems such as leaving a player.
well that's your opinion " it isn't true "


4-flawed punishment system >> Explain more about this.

5-We can look to DoW3 to see if they did. >> i didn't play DoW3 but if there is not punishment system maybe that's because there wasn't such post before idk. i don't care about down of war 3 we are talking about Company of Heroes 2 here.

6-Because punishments should always fit the crime, and leaving a match isn't even a crime yet still get a punishment. You just want it to hurt more because you presume it will make everyone not leave matches.

>> Leaving a competitive match is of course a crime and shall has its own suitable punishment just like every crime has. just imagine you are going to win your match and get a cool Victory streak but enemy gives comeback on the other side of the map , where your team mates are fighting , then your team mate loses himself and leaves the game and CPU Exp cant do anything and you lose match also you lose your cool victory streak. you like that situation ? if you like it well that's not our problem sorry but if you don't , the punishment would be best solution for preventing such players leave the game

7- if sometimes as you say AI takes the task and your team wins its because the enemy team is terrible.
so it's not gonna happen sometimes its gonna happen rarely because most of the times your enemy team is pro.

It's proven that AI is nothing and humans brain is in Higher level.

8-I'm guessing this is the actual punishment you have in mind? Because you never actually stated what tat punishment is.

>> punishment will be something like that ; the player who leaves the match and doesn't join back, will get match making ban for some hours and if he do that again that hour will increase and if he really do that again will get a serious ban for example he wont be able to play for 1 week or more.

My Guess was right you are 1 of those loser players who leave the game! this is why you disagree with these terms. you know why ? because if the punishment gets activated you will get banned and thats not good for you and players like you.

That's right, I shouldn't be punished for taking a logical step in avoiding a waste of time. The alternative to punishment shouldn't be a more waste of time, it is pointless and won't contribute to a game's longevity.
Who wants to play a game where you might get banned just for trying to leave a game?

first of all he can join back . second if he doesnt it means he has rage quitted because if he didn't rage quit he would join back. i think your opinion here is more laughable because you have no idea of what the post is about.

There is no way to find out if someone "doesn't" come back. Sometimes my game drops at start, or in the middle. You're telling everyone that I must be categorized the same as a rage quitter?

Incidentally vice versa ! because most of the people like fair games so most of the people will come and play this game because they are sure there wont be Ridiculous problems such as leaving a player.
well that's your opinion " it isn't true "

Players leaving is hardly a major problem for any game. Technical issues, abusing chat, and cheating are major problems for games. At the very best, this one is the first.
What's actually going to happen is that the player base will drop up until no one else plays the game, because as long as players are in the game, there will be people who will experience drops. At least now, those players would want to come back; with your solution, they can't. There won't ever be a "vice versa", and certainly not incidentally.

i don't care about down of war 3 we are talking about Company of Heroes 2 here.

Says the guy that constantly talks about CS:GO, doesn't even explain the way it works over there, either.

Leaving a competitive match is of course a crime and shall has its own suitable punishment just like every crime has.

The intentions and reasons for leaving a match defines what makes it a crime, not the fact that they leave at all. A ragequitter and someone suddenly losing connection or power while intentionally playing the game are both leavers, and any punishment system is immediately a flawed one if there's no way to discern between the two.

just imagine you are going to win your match and get a cool Victory streak but enemy gives comeback on the other side of the map , where your team mates are fighting , then your team mate loses himself and leaves the game and CPU Exp cant do anything and you lose match also you lose your cool victory streak. you like that situation ? if you like it well that's not our problem sorry but if you don't , the punishment would be best solution for preventing such players leave the game

I don't like that situation, but I don't have to like a situation in order for it to be working as intended.
Your idea of punishing people who do this won't even solve this problem, anyways. What happens is said players stay in the game and just get toxic, grief your units and base to make the match end earlier, or go AFK because it avoids them being banned. Your system is therefore flawed since it neither solves problem, but also makes it worse.

punishment will be something like that ; the player who leaves the match and doesn't join back, will get match making ban for some hours and if he do that again that hour will increase and if he really do that again will get a serious ban for example he wont be able to play for 1 week or more.

Pointless then, since you can just sleep it off or go play another game. Relic doesn't want a system where players are FORCED to play other people's games because they got dropped or rage quitted.
The people most affected by this wouldn't even be rage quitters, it's the guys that get a connection issue, the guys that actually want to play the game but experience problems. If you want a punishment system you need to make sure it's punishing the right people.

And what about team games where one guy refuses to surrender when everyone else wants to? Should all three players risk being banned via leaving because one guy was AFK or otherwise didn't vote at all? Because your punishment system demands that.

That's right, I shouldn't be punished for taking a logical step in avoiding a waste of time. The alternative to punishment shouldn't be a more waste of time, it is pointless and won't contribute to a game's longevity.
Who wants to play a game where you might get banned just for trying to leave a game?


There is no way to find out if someone "doesn't" come back. Sometimes my game drops at start, or in the middle. You're telling everyone that I must be categorized the same as a rage quitter?


Players leaving is hardly a major problem for any game. Technical issues, abusing chat, and cheating are major problems for games. At the very best, this one is the first.
What's actually going to happen is that the player base will drop up until no one else plays the game, because as long as players are in the game, there will be people who will experience drops. At least now, those players would want to come back; with your solution, they can't. There won't ever be a "vice versa", and certainly not incidentally.


Says the guy that constantly talks about CS:GO, doesn't even explain the way it works over there, either.

The intentions and reasons for leaving a match defines what makes it a crime, not the fact that they leave at all. A ragequitter and someone suddenly losing connection or power while intentionally playing the game are both leavers, and any punishment system is immediately a flawed one if there's no way to discern between the two.


I don't like that situation, but I don't have to like a situation in order for it to be working as intended.
Your idea of punishing people who do this won't even solve this problem, anyways. What happens is said players stay in the game and just get toxic, grief your units and base to make the match end earlier, or go AFK because it avoids them being banned. Your system is therefore flawed since it neither solves problem, but also makes it worse.


Pointless then, since you can just sleep it off or go play another game. Relic doesn't want a system where players are FORCED to play other people's games because they got dropped or rage quitted.
The people most affected by this wouldn't even be rage quitters, it's the guys that get a connection issue, the guys that actually want to play the game but experience problems. If you want a punishment system you need to make sure it's punishing the right people.

And what about team games where one guy refuses to surrender when everyone else wants to? Should all three players risk being banned via leaving because one guy was AFK or otherwise didn't vote at all? Because your punishment system demands that.

1-Who wants to play a game where you might get banned just for trying to leave a game? >> Good question
now there is the answer : Tough players who doesn't like a team mate leaves.

2-There is no way to find out if someone "doesn't" come back. Sometimes my game drops at start, or in the middle. You're telling everyone that I must be categorized the same as a rage quitter? >> why cant you understand this simple thing ? no you are not gonna get punished if you join back to the game and if you get disconnected because of your connection ( i mean its not your fault) you can come back to the game by an other option called "RECONNECT TO GAME". its third time i'm explaining you this.

3-What's actually going to happen is that the player base will drop up until no one else plays the game, because as long as players are in the game, there will be people who will experience drops. At least now, those players would want to come back; with your solution, they can't. There won't ever be a "vice versa", and certainly not incidentally.
>> number of coh2 players will increase with this solution you know why ? because as i said most of people enjoy of playing a game without any leavers.

4-way it works over there >> did you read last paragraph of previous post ? i brought you an example of how it works.

5- The intentions and reasons for leaving a match defines what makes it a crime, not the fact that they leave at all. A ragequitter and someone suddenly losing connection or power while intentionally playing the game are both leavers, and any punishment system is immediately a flawed one if there's no way to discern between the two.
>> we can Distinguish leaver (rage-quitter) from the one who gets disconnected because of connection problems by which RECONNECTING system. it just became 4th time i'm explaining this.

6-Your idea of punishing people who do this won't even solve this problem, anyways. What happens is said players stay in the game and just get toxic, grief your units and base to make the match end earlier, or go AFK because it avoids them being banned. Your system is therefore flawed since it neither solves problem, but also makes it worse. >> you just pointed a good point " going toxic and being AFK" to prevent this happening a heavy punishment is required. for example you save game reply and send it to relic then team killer player is going to get CD-Key banned.
and about AFK guy there should be an option which kicks player if he doesn't move for 1 minute and replace it with expert CPU with more resources ( why more resources ? because of Compensation of AFK time)

7-And what about team games where one guy refuses to surrender when everyone else wants to? Should all three players risk being banned via leaving because one guy was AFK or otherwise didn't vote at all? Because your punishment system demands that. >> yes leaver shall get punished. thats not that toughs guy problem if he doesn't want to surrender. that's the leavers problem.

This is my personal opinion, but if YOUR internet sucks it is YOUR problem then. If you play a (ranked) online game, make sure, your internet is working fine before.

Yeah nah.

I encourage you to go Outback, play 25 games WITHOUT disconnection, then we can have a chat.

While some of us live in a first world country, our internet is more or less 4th world.

Yeah nah.

I encourage you to go Outback, play 25 games WITHOUT disconnection, then we can have a chat.

While some of us live in a first world country, our internet is more or less 4th world.

I know that feeling, Germany has also stated a few years ago that the internet is "Neuland" (= new ground), so my 1K doesn't work pretty well either

The thing is that I think that the person who should be "responsible" for lowering the fun for the others (= because of Internet problems) should be one to be punished (if any).

It's like the same old problem with people over 80 driving cars. By law they are allowed to drive without any restriction, in reality they are dangerous and annoying. Even if is not really their fault.