Eastern Front Armies Revamp

Looking at the changes, although in general look good, I think you're basically sounding the death knell for team games.

Panthers are going to be waaaay to strong now, with very little counter play from allied teams. Their supposed hard counters (TD's) who are themselves hard countered by the Panther as it stands in the current game, will be even easier to kill for the panther.

Elephants are going to be even harder to deal with, due to giving the unit an ability to kill the only thing that realistically has a chance to open up the game when it hits the field - AT guns (that already suck massively penning the thing).

There is still no allied hard counter to these things. I'm sorry, throwing mediums at it is not a solution (even with the reduced damage), as the maps simply don't allow for grand flanking manoeuvres against organised teams, and you have the temerity to call them a hard counter... just "lol".

You might say "this is a map issue, not a balance issue" but you're wrong. Maps have to be considered in any balance changes, it's the framework in which the units perform. Generally it's not the elephant that kills the mediums trying to flank, it's all the supporting weapons versus the time it takes to kill, even with rear shots.

Already the late game axis infantry superiority over that of allied variants is what invokes the need for tanks to counter it from allies. We don't build mediums to take out super heavies fyi. The elephant (and JT) then slowly dismantles those tanks, and Axis win the game with superior infantry, forcing the allied forces back and back.

Plenty of times I've seen panthers and Jp4's, even stugs killing IS2's, ISU's, Perhing's and other supposed "allied heavies" frontally. How many times have you seen the same for Elephants and JT's? Exactly.

This isn't asymmetrical balance, it's insanity. Axis have a way to easily open up the game via their TD's TH's when all things are even. Allies do not.


Like I've said to you before Smith, all your efforts at balance are futile, due to the inherent errors of judgement by Relic and the fundamental flaws in the game design, that are 4 years in the making.


Just open up mirror matches and be done with it. Let the player skill then determine the outcome of the game, rather than OP units or units the other factions don't even have access to deciding the outcome. 1v1's also remain viable, and team games are not unbalanced.

All the fanboy's are responsible for this. All your whining, all your rants is what has brought about this call. Let's see how you like dealing with your own units.

Also, I don't understand the whole point of trying to make the elephant a little more viable for 1v1's...

No self respecting Wehr player is going to build one except for trolling purposes. Its role is already covered by far cheaper easier to attain units in a 1v1 environment.

All the fanboy's are responsible for this. All your whining, all your rants is what has brought about this call. Let's see how you like dealing with your own units.

I like how you perform the very thing you judge others on.

I like how you perform the very thing you judge others on.

At some level, Tatatala probably isn't wrong about this being bad for larger team games. He's completely correct about not being able to swarm JT's or Elephants in larger games. Giving the Elephant a 70 range AI capability is bad because the only way to push it off a point in larger games is to strip away the surrounding AI units and push it back with AT guns and infantry. Also, the pop cap nerf wasn't enough. If you think it was, show me a replay where you managed to kill an Elefant with two SU85'S. Replays where you killed one because someone overexposed it with no support and got it killed with a medium don't count. The Elefant should have received a straight nerf, just like the Stuart, AEC, rifles, etc, etc.

That said, this does look like a better patch for 1v1's.

Realistically, Relic won't put any more money into patches for this game. Even when they did, they often screwed up balance and the quality (in terms of bugs) was worse. The only drawback is that most of the members favor playing as Axis and certainly the most vocal ones favor that faction.

At some level, Tatatala probably isn't wrong about this being bad for larger team games. He's completely correct about not being able to swarm JT's or Elephants in larger games. Giving the Elephant a 70 range AI capability is bad because the only way to push it off a point in larger games is to strip away the surrounding AI units and push it back with AT guns and infantry. Also, the pop cap nerf wasn't enough. If you think it was, show me a replay where you managed to kill an Elefant with two SU85'S. Replays where you killed one because someone overexposed it with no support and got it killed with a medium don't count. The Elefant should have received a straight nerf, just like the Stuart, AEC, rifles, etc, etc.

That said, this does look like a better patch for 1v1's.

Realistically, Relic won't put any more money into patches for this game. Even when they did, they often screwed up balance and the quality (in terms of bugs) was worse. The only drawback is that most of the members favor playing as Axis and certainly the most vocal ones favor that faction.

please tatala is just crying out of his back side without even trying the patch. why would someone use su85s to take out an elefant which is a dedicated super heavy AT? thats just plain stupid.... and you want a replay taking one out without meduims?, who gives you the right to choose such dumb and biased criteria. And if you read the patch notes they have nerfed the elefant

please tatala is just crying out of his back side without even trying the patch. why would someone use su85s to take out an elefant which is a dedicated super heavy AT? thats just plain stupid.... and you want a replay taking one out without meduims?, who gives you the right to choose such dumb and biased criteria. And if you read the patch notes they have nerfed the elefant

So when's the last time you killed an elefant that didn't drive straight through your army because it was being controlled by an idiot?

please tatala is just crying out of his back side without even trying the patch. why would someone use su85s to take out an elefant which is a dedicated super heavy AT? thats just plain stupid.... and you want a replay taking one out without meduims?, who gives you the right to choose such dumb and biased criteria. And if you read the patch notes they have nerfed the elefant

Hey everyone!


Elefant
The changes to the Elefant will make it somewhat less efficient at countering medium armour (i.e., the Elefant’s intended counter). To compensate, and also give the Elefant (and its doctrines) more luster for 1v1 use we are increasing the AI and AT utility of the Elefant in other means.

-Damage from 320 to 280
-Now gains access to an HE barrage. The barrage can penetrate all world objects and fires with a small 20-degree arc
-Popcap increased from 20 to 23
-New Vet1 ability: Armour detection (works like Stormtrooper Vehicle Detection); TWP removed.

Okay, then. It should be very easy for you show me any replay where you killed an Elefant with mediums. Same conditions apply.

The marginal nerf to damage will be more than offset by the improved AI.

Okay, then. It should be very easy for you show me any replay where you killed an Elefant with mediums. Same conditions apply.

The marginal nerf to damage will be more than offset by the improved AI.

Have you not played the game? surely you've experienced elephants get swarmed and taken out by mediums. im not guna waste my time making a replay for you, cuz if i did you will just come up with another excuse. If the elephant does end up over performing the mod team will sort it out

Have you not played the game? surely you've experienced elephants get swarmed and taken out by mediums. im not guna waste my time making a replay for you, cuz if i did you will just come up with another excuse. If the elephant does end up over performing the mod team will sort it out

Ok, I have read your replies.

Now, please, list for me the hard counters to elephants and JT's, if you'd be so kind.(FYI abandoned panthers don't count)


Thanks in advance.

I like how you perform the very thing you judge others on.

Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong. I know something for certain though: Mirror matches gets rid of all the fanboism.

Bring it on.

Call Ins: if the tiered building associated is destroyed, cost rollbacks or stays with the discount. I ask what you have in mind for OKW T4. All in all, i think it's fine.

Cost discounts remain; they are a permanent upgrade awarded to the player that finished constructing the relevant buildings (sorta how OKW teching works)

Conscripts: this is gonna be a pain in the ass to get it right but worth the effort.

It is. That's why we aren't going to modify other types of infantry (e.g., Volks) until we're sure about Conscripts.

Anecdote: it might not be worrisome due to now having only a single available ability which affects acc (FHQ aura been removed) but doesn't this make things like FMR (for mother russia) irrelevant at some points? Basically if you are not engaging high vet low size squads, the bonus is not doing anything? (Just like Valiant Assault).

FMR gives the fastest sprint in the game, technically. It goes up to 11!

Flavour: i like been able to maneuver early on with Cons while using Hoorah. It's kinda prohibiting if the cost is increased. I mean, if the numbers presented are right, you are not increasing by much the close DPS, molotovs are only faster thrown at vet2 and nothing crazy has been done in other aspects.

Close DPS was indeed upped by 5%; that's only to make the curve less retarded (live Cons trade best at range 25).

The biggest buff was far DPS which was upped by 25%. That & the vet bonuses (and green cover, of course) make Cons the go-to defensive infantry for Soviets.

-Does this apply to booby trap like demos or timed ones? Probably not, but worth asking.

It doesn't. However booby trap has had its OHK radius reduced

-Does this have any weird effect on emplacements?

We'll worry about emplacements when we get to Brits. This is an EFA-only mod for now

Reduce cost is nice. Revealing cloak too OP ? Both sniper and mortar.

Let's see how Soviet sniper fares vs OST sniper now that incendiary rounds is fixed.

Guards Troops:
My approach. I still think they are losing some value, even if they get a mp cost decrease since they lose the capabilities of fielding both light AT (which it wasn't bad AI defensively) and AI (DPs) and now they even have to buy back the PTRS.

Option "l33t" piñata dudes:
-Keep the current live version status quo. 360mp-4slots-PTRS on spawn-Drop rate
-Apply mosin/nade changes
-PTRS with old pre WBP performance
-Hit the dirt > changed to "Hold the line" or any cheesy defensive like name. IF anything this goes more to the old "Defensive Stance" approach
Only activable while outside of combat. Can the range bonus be increased to slot weapons to +5 (what Pathfinders, JLI and Falls get). NVM just increase the range to +5 in all since it's a defensive ability mostly (not passive or WOWSHITTOGGLE it during combat)

Basically a slight improvement on their current state.

That could kinda work. The question, though, is why would you pick a generalist squad that's meh-ish, when Shocks are so sexy now. Being forced to start with a PTRS kind of gimps you.

It appears that pre-nerf Guards really worked because of their ultra-high received accuracy & the speed they were attaining that. Low casualty rates meant the squad didn't have to juggle 4 slot items among them.

On other hand, if we reduced their firepower instead of RA, then all squads in the game would just a-move walk up to them.

Option EFA Revamp 2.0
-Cost to 330mp (old cost)
-MAYBE: weapon slots to 3. I think it might cause issues but i can't let it go♪ ...RIP piñata dudes with stuff.
-Spawn with mosins.
-Double weapon upgrade. Either double DPs or Double PTRS. Drop rate to 0.1 or middle ground.
-DPs keep the button effect, the pseudo CC/Snare.
-PTRS gives a different ability. First 2 shots applies a RoF reduction. From the 2nd volley (3 shots onwards), it applies the turret lock crit (you can still shoot). Keeps refreshing if the target stays on target.
-"Defensive stance" see point before.

We though about making guards start with 0 guns and have 3 slots.

However, the thought of 3 DP's kinda scared us. We could make Guards come with 1 forced PTRS to have a middle ground between uniqueness, customisability and good performance. However, we're going to wait and see how the upcoming improvement to Guards will make the unit feel.

Soviet PM-42 Mortar
Popcap from 6 to 5. How does this work? Crew also to 5? Didn't fraction popcap cause issues?
PD: same with other units which have 6 man crew and now pop of 5.

The mortar entity has -1 popcap. Thus, if you're soviets and have 2 guys manning the mortar it takes 1 popcap.

Urban Defense Tactics:
Option 1 which is more likely to be accepted by Relic:
Reduce cost and remove damage modifier. Keep def buffs.

Option 2 more interesting:
Let it be built on bunkers.
Replace armored detection with defensive emplacements (this is a combined change with Defensive commander abilities). Tank traps + bunker

We -will- give the doctrine the ability for engineers to build their own FHQ, in case everything has been wrecked etc. ATM, we're just waiting for people to come up with a suitable model for it.

E.g., would FHQ looking like soviet T1 (tent) or soviet T2 (trench) seal the deal?

I want to think that these have been forgotten, any ideas to improve?
HTD, Tank traps, AT grenade assault, Personal AI/AT mines

Feel free to brainstorm.

I wouldn't want to buff HTD yet. This is because how much better Conscripts are at long-range now (they beat G43 grens with Vet). The fact that you no longer have to close in that much means that they might already be able to take MGs down frontally (I haven't tried it!)

PPSh might require nerfs. It's too early to decide though (we want to fix the Mosin first).

AT nades and AI/AT mines, I've absolutely no clue about

Call in specifics + Techings

RIGHT NOW:
Show Spoiler

-From BP2 to get all tech, it requires 660mp/220f.
-Getting only T3, it's 360mp/120f
-Skipping T3 to T4, it's 400mp/145f
-EFA Patch to get all tech, 560mp/170f (also discount on call in)

PERSONAL CHANGES v1:
Show Spoiler

Call in discount requires BP3 (it's hard to make it free without purpose IMO).
Tiers 3-4 are independent from BP and BP from Ts. BP unlocks units.
T3 gives Stugs. T4 gives PW. BP2 gives PIV and Ostwind. BP3 unlocks Brumbar, PV and Call in tank discount.

-Getting only Stugs, 260mp/60f
-Getting T3 complete, 360mp/120f
-Getting PW, needs Stugs, 460mp/135f
-Getting T4 complete, n. stugs, 560mp/160f (which also gives call in discount)
-Unlocking only call in discount, 200mp 85f
-All tech 660mp/220f

TBH i don't want to expand on this cause it was already a mess of swapping values to present this "simple" idea which doesn't mess with current timings too much.

That could help.

ATM, we're trying to non-linearise OST tech again by throwing costs around.

We didn't think of BP unlocking specific units, so that would actually be a good idea.

Spotting scopes/Smoke Tactician:
I thought they were mostly fine. Smoke been countered by attack ground. Keep cost, decrease delay. Increase cost, remove delay.

Smoke could use a small delay from live version to prevent AT guns from losing lined-up shots. It probably doesn't have to be as long as currently.

Spotting scopes are OK in WBP. It's a nice defensive ability that you can use to cover flanks, and get some intel for your Elefant Airburst barrage. It's got 70 range.

About other forgotten things:
Smoke bombs: make them not require LOS
Sector arty: ???
HT riegel: 222 deploy ?
Defensive doctrine: combined trenches with tank traps and give some love

Those could be nice ideas.

About demos:
When i talk about emplacements, i'm talking about Pak43 and LeFH. Mostly talking about bogus behaviour.

Also, what happens with units inside trenches (heavy cover) or HT. I figured it out there might be issues with those type of more niche situations.

I'm been playing the mod with my buddy. The changes feel really good.

Something happening to British trenches? Those things definetly need some changes...

Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong. I know something for certain though: Mirror matches gets rid of all the fanboism.

Bring it on.

But then you get the situation you despise, fighting elefants with 70 range ai capabilities. This means jagdtigers and elefants every game by players on both sides. This is exactly what you don't want lol.

Why do you digg your own grave one post at a time lol?

But then you get the situation you despise, fighting elefants with 70 range ai capabilities. This means jagdtigers and elefants every game by players on both sides. This is exactly what you don't want lol.

Why do you digg your own grave one post at a time lol?

You're wrong. I want a fair and level playing field.

(also you need to get better with the little jibes and digs to get a rise, sorry to disappoint. Try harder)

Guards Troops

That could kinda work. The question, though, is why would you pick a generalist squad that's meh-ish, when Shocks are so sexy now. Being forced to start with a PTRS kind of gimps you.

It appears that pre-nerf Guards really worked because of their ultra-high received accuracy & the speed they were attaining that. Low casualty rates meant the squad didn't have to juggle 4 slot items among them.

On other hand, if we reduced their firepower instead of RA, then all squads in the game would just a-move walk up to them.

We though about making guards start with 0 guns and have 3 slots.

However, the thought of 3 DP's kinda scared us. We could make Guards come with 1 forced PTRS to have a middle ground between uniqueness, customisability and good performance. However, we're going to wait and see how the upcoming improvement to Guards will make the unit feel.

Here are my humble two cents on the Penals/Guards issue.

Currently in live, Penals have more or less turned into mainline infantry despite the recent changes to their scalability. The reason being in my opinion is that most of those changes were directed at their slot weapons. I think Penals being equipped with SVT-40s, which are effective at all ranges, is their real problem for being the mindless spammable unit they are. Might I suggest giving Penals back their Flamethrower Package and changing their base weapons to Mosins? It would lower their initial shock impact, but having the option of having flamethrowers would increase their anti-infantry anyway. If that's not enough, perhaps they could get the Assault Package back (1x Flamethrower and 5x PPsH?) for even more close range infantry death?

My problem with Penals having SVT-40s is that as mentioned before they are effective at practically all ranges and that even with the PTRS downgrade in AI performance, they can still match Axis squads in firepower. Using a Mosin + PTRS or a PPsH + flamer adds a clear distinction of the unit's intended role as a more specialized unit, as opposed to a generalist that competes with core infantry. Additionally, switching their weapons to the Mosin would increase historical authenticity, as Soviet forces didn't have enough SVT-40s to go around in the war, especially on Penal Battalions who arguably received lower priority in supply shipments. If SVT-40s were in supply, those who best utilized it were those who have gone under additional training, like Naval Infantry and Guards.


On the subject of Guards, I'd say that they come with two undroppable slot item SVT-40s, and then an option to go DP or PTRS. That's three slot items in total, although the SVT-40 slot item sizes could be tweaked to allow for tweaks in how many slot items the squad can pick up and use if need be. The reason why I opt for two SVT-40s as opposed to 3 or even using them as the base weapon (6) is because, again, historically Soviets had few of these rifles ready to be distributed. It was planned that a third (1/3 * 6 = 2) of infantry rifles would be SVT-40s, but was seldom achieved in units. However, being Guards Troops and being offered the best equipment available in real life, I'd see no problem giving them a few of the rare SVT-40 in-game.

This would add additional flavor to the Guards Infantry since they are then the only Soviet infantry armed with semi-automatic rifles, and it would prevent the Guards from being either being underwhelming or overwhelming from the beginning.

FHQ

We -will- give the doctrine the ability for engineers to build their own FHQ, in case everything has been wrecked etc. ATM, we're just waiting for people to come up with a suitable model for it.

E.g., would FHQ looking like soviet T1 (tent) or soviet T2 (trench) seal the deal?

There is a radio post model somewhere in the game files that might be helpful. It's a tent with a radio and a few crates. I believe its animator is "gameplay\resource_points\radio_post_sp\radio_post_sp"

There is a radio post model somewhere in the game files that might be helpful. It's a tent with a radio and a few crates. I believe its animator is "gameplay\resource_points\radio_post_sp\radio_post_sp"

This?

This?

Yeah! That's the one.

Yeah! That's the one.

So, you have my vote