Eastern Front Armies Revamp

They are the same (given the sample size): BG-HQ: 20 games, 8 wins, Mech-Reg: 27 games, 12 wins (so both around 42%).

Edit: Note, that most rounds so far were defined more by a skill gap rather then faction performance, so this is more an indication of what the tech choice of the better player was.

And you'd concur, I assume, that 'the more skilled player' tended to choose early luchs?

Of all the GCS games I've watched, I've never seen the likes of Hans, KoreanArmy etc go battlegroup.

The Cover from ATg shield does not seem to work for any ATG.

This with some minor few points: the cover works but only for the dudes who are not operating the weapon, which in general, try to be far and spread out. You can put an AT gun behind cover and the 2 guys manning the weapon will benefit from it.
The only redeeming point of AT gun, is that they have a hitbox which can block shots for better or worst.

PD: lets go back to EFA pls.

Please give to is-2 normal ability that good fit to role of heavy tank.

I don't know... I quite like having a hard to kill tank that can help finish capturing territory. I vote we keep the IS2 as it is.

IS-2 still looks like a soft unit:
Yes, they have increased the damage, but he still shoots inaccurately plus slow turn of tower, unnecessary veterans ability and is locked in two commanders.
Pershing is locked in one commander but this is such a wonderful tank. That I want to take only him. Although the enemy has a huge blob and it would be more advantageous to take Calliope

It's not until you gain some Vet for the IS2 does it begin to shine. It's a unit that takes patience to use, that's for sure. But it will make the Turret turn faster and make it fire faster too. Only then is it really a beast.

It's not until you gain some Vet for the IS2 does it begin to shine. It's a unit that patience to use, that's for sure. But it will make the Turret turn faster and make it fire faster too. Only then is it really a beast.

And here there is a problem:
Pershin takes the veterans instantly - excellent accuracy to infantry and tanks, plus big damage to infantry and tanks
IS-2 takes the veterans badly:
The main problem of the RNG gun is constant miss and non-penetration.Absolute misses against the infantry and it's very funny: the King Tiger constantly wipes a full 6-man squad, IS-2 122-mm exterminator wipe the 4-man squad? Pff .. in dreams

How about to give Is-2 the same ability to change shells as ISU-152? If you want to wipe infantry use HE, want fight against armor choose AP.

How about to give Is-2 the same ability to change shells as ISU-152? If you want to wipe infantry use HE, want fight against armor choose AP.

No, this will make the IS-2 the most expensive piece of uselessness. Just polish his characteristics, change the veteran ability.

Technically, DP guards have button which you can use in conjunction with a snare (e.g., satchel). Would giving PTRS access to a similar utility help make the unit less bland, in your opinion? Also, did you find a use for the Hit the dirt ability?

I think their previous iteration as a multirole squad was very unique (in fact, completely unique in the COH2 setting beyond single shreck storms. BAR + zook rifles don't count.) and I think you lose more by eliminating this. I didn't have the opportunity to use HtD due game circumstance.

If 2 G43's are too shitty and 4 G43's are too strong, would 3 G43's be the sweet spot?

Perhaps. It's just fine tuning after all.

I wouldn't really unlatch KV8/KV1 from T4, as they are really strong now in 1v1 (where call-ins are a headache). Elefant, we kinda could change, I guess, depending on where the barrage ends up

KV8 strats are definitely not in vogue as the unit itself isn't too strong (low armor, hp, flamer doesn't have the incredible range nor damage of the croc). I don't think having it as a niche comeback unit or part of a T3 based comp would be imbalanced- if anything, I think KV8 centered strats could be strengthened.

KV1 is a lot stronger- in live, I think KV1 spam strats are roughly on par, if not slightly inferior to regular soviet teching (see barton's build for the most efficient incorporation of the unit). Given that you've buffed this unit in the revamp perhaps it can be left attached to tech (though, I would prefer to see it weaker and unlatched from tech precisely so more creative builds which don't incorporate tech are competitive.)

Prop arty?

Propaganda leaflets. On second thoughts, though, they aren't in any problem doctrines nor do they seem to cause any knockon effects so forget I mentioned them in the first place



I think that while a lot of the changes are very admirable and successfully balance the game, they cut down on strategic diversity- something which COH2 already has precious little of. If T3 + Tiger strategies are too effective compared to T4, then should the price point of T4 or effectiveness of units within T4 not be buffed such that it becomes competitive, rather than gutting T3 + Tiger?

What goes on here is that techless strategies in the mod are disincentivized so heavily as to be the equivalent of teching strategies that currently exist in live. The 25% cost increase when it comes to heavy vehicles becomes so large that teching becomes de facto- there's no decision making at all, just as it is now where techless call ins are equally no-brainer choices!

This, all in all, results in blandness not in terms of unit to unit, but in terms of what tech you see every game. Elimination of viability of call-in units, which aid these interesting tech skip builds builds (stuge, puma) or create strategies revolving around them (T3 units + Tiger or Ace, KV1, stuge-tiger), unfortunately make the game less interesting.

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Just my two cents. I really hope my conclusions above from what i've observed ingame while playing the mod and from my understanding of your design goals don't end up coming true.

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In my opinion, Call-in should be viable in case of dominating your opponent or as a last chance to counter him. Strategies revolving around call-in will always be unbalanced and make stock equivalence unused.
I like the way the mod put back call-in units where they belong, so we can hope to see much more different strat than today with all the pool unused-commanders-because-they-don't-have-callins.

But, could you guys not?

I took a long break from this game because of the direction balance was headed. Recently fired the game up, and played a few: I have to say, you really fucked up the fluidity of the game - yet somehow at the same time brought in some really interesting and well thought out changes.

Please, slow it down.

You guys are going overboard. Too many changes to what the core game was and what Relic's balance team intended for is as careless as it is sloppy. And who the hell let Smith on the team? That dude swims in a pool filled with bias on the daily.

I love you

Strategies revolving around call-in will always be unbalanced and make stock equivalence unused.

Except that isn't the case- techless call-ins aren't inherently badly balanced, just some combination of price point and timing compared to standard units make them so.

Like the example I gave- long T1 play and rushing out T3 units as wehrmacht is equally valid, if not stronger than, going T2, Stug Es, and Tiger. However, having the option to go for Stug Es and Tiger grants the game more strategic diversity i.e. i can choose to execute either in order to provoke a reaction or as a counterbuild against an opponent, or simply because I prefer the playstyle.

Ofc there are badly implemented call-ins at the moment- medium tank call-ins have been problematic for much of the game and the M4C is no exception. Perhaps that unit can be tied to T4, much like the T3485 has been and the Easy 8 on the USF side.

But that doesn't mean all call-ins as a concept are the root of all evil, which would be a knee jerk reaction and uncalled for. I'd like to see the game both be more balanced, yet retain unique character both for individual units and different tech/call-in oriented playstyles. Universally eliminating the effectiveness of techless call-ins as a rule rather than to accommodate balance in a case-by-case basis would not serve the game well.

And you'd concur, I assume, that 'the more skilled player' tended to choose early luchs?

Not really. The point of the edit was more that the even winrates between BG-HQ and Mech-Reg likely indicates that both options have been chosen in about the same ratio by the better and the the worse players.

Of all the GCS games I've watched, I've never seen the likes of Hans, KoreanArmy etc go battlegroup.

Well, Hans and KoreanArmy so far didn't play OKW

Players that picked BG-HQ first and won: Luvnest, Theodosios, Fredbrik, Lt.Baumy, Tobis, VonAsten, Zarok

Players that picked Mech-Reg first and won: Pappy O'Daniel, Barton, DevM, Jae for Jett, Jesulin, Talisman, Tobis, GB Hooligan

Don't know about the IS2 to be honest.

Sure its damage output is worse than the Tiger's but there is no tank I connect with bouncing shells as much as the IS2. Even the King Tiger feels less bouncy.

So IMO the IS2 is the better 'defensive' heavy that can withstand a lot of shots while the Tiger is better and dealing damage while also melting like butter.

Don't know about the IS2 to be honest.

Sure its damage output is worse than the Tiger's but there is no tank I connect with bouncing shells as much as the IS2. Even the King Tiger feels less bouncy.

So IMO the IS2 is the better 'defensive' heavy that can withstand a lot of shots while the Tiger is better and dealing damage while also melting like butter.

Frontal armor equal or little less than KT, i don't remember exactcly. Defensive heavy must be KV-1, not IS-2. IMHO IS-2 must be equal to KT from effectiveness (KT nondoctrinal, while IS-2 only few doctrines). Right now IS-2, slow, heavy armored RNG cannon and nothing else. I prefer same cost as KT, but normal IS-2 not what i see right now. Imagine KT with Cap point ability and IS-2 with blietzkrieg and Spearhed? How you think who will be best?

On the topic of Heavies with a penetrating abilities, I suggest that it should be eliminated in KT and Pershing. Imo exceeds their role.

edit:When come wfa revamp

The problem of IS-2 is complex:
- locked in two commanders (and the shock troops are not currently in the favorites)
- IS-2 unreliable / soft, unnecessary ability
- (it follows from the previous problem) it does not make sense: it comes when the game is almost completed, you spent fuel on other tanks (SU-85 + Katyusha best choice right now)
- IS-2 is more in repair than in combat

I like the idea of bringing the IS-2 to King Tiger level

Except that isn't the case- techless call-ins aren't inherently badly balanced, just some combination of price point and timing compared to standard units make them so.

Like the example I gave- long T1 play and rushing out T3 units as wehrmacht is equally valid, if not stronger than, going T2, Stug Es, and Tiger. However, having the option to go for Stug Es and Tiger grants the game more strategic diversity i.e. i can choose to execute either in order to provoke a reaction or as a counterbuild against an opponent, or simply because I prefer the playstyle.

Ofc there are badly implemented call-ins at the moment- medium tank call-ins have been problematic for much of the game and the M4C is no exception. Perhaps that unit can be tied to T4, much like the T3485 has been and the Easy 8 on the USF side.

But that doesn't mean all call-ins as a concept are the root of all evil, which would be a knee jerk reaction and uncalled for. I'd like to see the game both be more balanced, yet retain unique character both for individual units and different tech/call-in oriented playstyles. Universally eliminating the effectiveness of techless call-ins as a rule rather than to accommodate balance in a case-by-case basis would not serve the game well.

And how does the mod break this state of balance? I see it bringing more risk in executing call-in stategies, you'll hurt your economy if you do it wrong. The M10 should be an emergency unit, not something you can spam and forget about USF T3. Same goes for StugE, Ostwind etc... The only faction in trouble with the mod idea is Soviet, call-in are already there to fulfill obvious gaps.

IMHO IS-2 must be equal to KT from effectiveness (KT nondoctrinal, while IS-2 only few doctrines).

Keep in mind that you need AT LEAST 470 Fuel and 1320 MP for one single KT.
(All Buildings + 720MP / 270 Fuel per KT)

The IS2 can (theoretically) be called in for it's 560MP / 230 Fuel cost (I am not sure about those stats, but they are about right).

Sovs could theoretically play a Heavy T2 (I know, the maxim sucks, but still) with Cons Spam and AT guns and survive the game waiting for the IS-2. This will cost them about 250 Fuel in total (about half of the cost of one KT). Meanwhile OKW will have a way heavier time countering light and medium armor with Raketenwerfers and Panzerschreck Pioneers alone.

The IS-2 is currently fine in my opinion. If it receives a damage increase, it should get the same armor as the Tiger IMO.