Sturmtiger in next patch

there was this guy kingdun during WBP who successfully whined, cryed and complained enough to get the flamer halftrack nerfed into uselessness

First of all, the flameHT wasn't changed.

Secondly, the proposed changes only affected the flameHT's anti-garrison performance, which is batshit OP.

Thirdly, if you have issues making FlameHT work on open spaces, please post a replay on the state office and a strategist can help you.

On topic:
It is always possible to rework units to make them less batshit OP and less map dependent at the same time (see Sturmtiger).

If people truly believe that the Sturmtiger is OK as it is, I would like to know what recon tools they use to take out a unit that can:
- Fire from 45 range
- Through shot blockers
- Comes on a faction with non-doc maphax
- Has the highest amount of HP in the game
- Can easily be replaced with another 160 Fuel

First of all, the flameHT wasn't changed.

Secondly, the proposed changes only affected the flameHT's anti-garrison performance, which is batshit OP.

Thirdly, if you have issues making FlameHT work on open spaces, please post a replay on the state office and a strategist can help you.

On topic:
It is always possible to rework units to make them less batshit OP and less map dependent at the same time (see Sturmtiger).

If people truly believe that the Sturmtiger is OK as it is, I would like to know what recon tools they use to take out a unit that can:
- Fire from 45 range
- Through shot blockers
- Comes on a faction with non-doc maphax
- Has the highest amount of HP in the game
- Can easily be replaced with another 160 Fuel

I would see having it not shoot through shot blockers.

As well as increasing fuel price

But the range on the other hand and anti tank capabilities are the only reason why this unit is being built.

I would see having it not shoot through shot blockers.

As well as increasing fuel price

But the range on the other hand and anti tank capabilities are the only reason why this unit is being built.

That could work. Firing through shotblockers is what makes-or-breaks the unit in the "right" kind of maps. Due to its range, the list of shotblockers should also include forests, etc, however.

The sturmtiger could be given one of its vet bonuses already at Vet0 to compensate (e.g., allow it to reload on the move at reduced speed), and prevent decrews while that happens.

At the same time, we could also fix a long-standing bug that makes Sturmtiger shots collide with elevation difference (e.g., minsk pocket)

We could also buff its grenade so that it's useful (currently the grenade is only theoretically useful at stunning tanks, but I doubt that anybody knew how to use it)

In that case, the Sturmtiger could keep its high damage, but it would still have to lose its crits. The crits, in particular allow the Sturmtiger to practically one-shot heavy tanks. The Sturmtiger has no business doing that.

At a later point, once we've figured out a solution that works for demo-charges, we could see if we could apply a similar solution to the AVRE/Sturmtiger.

First of all, the flameHT wasn't changed.

Secondly, the proposed changes only affected the flameHT's anti-garrison performance, which is batshit OP.

Thirdly, if you have issues making FlameHT work on open spaces, please post a replay on the state office and a strategist can help you.

On topic:
It is always possible to rework units to make them less batshit OP and less map dependent at the same time (see Sturmtiger).

If people truly believe that the Sturmtiger is OK as it is, I would like to know what recon tools they use to take out a unit that can:
- Fire from 45 range
- Through shot blockers
- Comes on a faction with non-doc maphax
- Has the highest amount of HP in the game
- Can easily be replaced with another 160 Fuel

- when its get a turrent/ will move+ circle faster
- when its can reload on the move

>>its ok

That could work. Firing through shotblockers is what makes-or-breaks the unit in the "right" kind of maps. Due to its range, the list of shotblockers should also include forests, etc, however.

The sturmtiger could be given one of its vet bonuses already at Vet0 to compensate (e.g., allow it to reload on the move at reduced speed), and prevent decrews while that happens.

At the same time, we could also fix a long-standing bug that makes Sturmtiger shots collide with elevation difference (e.g., minsk pocket)

We could also buff its grenade so that it's useful (currently the grenade is only theoretically useful at stunning tanks, but I doubt that anybody knew how to use it)

In that case, the Sturmtiger could keep its high damage, but it would still have to lose its crits. The crits, in particular allow the Sturmtiger to practically one-shot heavy tanks. The Sturmtiger has no business doing that.

At a later point, once we've figured out a solution that works for demo-charges, we could see if we could apply a similar solution to the AVRE/Sturmtiger.

Avre has bonus damage vs building/pak43s, Sturm should also get bonus damage vs buildings/emplacements. Some units/ and abilities should be designed as hard-counters to fortifications.

so basically what i am getting from this is that whoever speaks loudest and complain a lot gets the changes in patches rather than logical deudution mr.smith i want to ask you one question do helpinghans,devm,vonasten these top players are complainng about sturmtiger or is it just you and miragefla's allied bias speaking

That could work. Firing through shotblockers is what makes-or-breaks the unit in the "right" kind of maps. Due to its range, the list of shotblockers should also include forests, etc, however.

The sturmtiger could be given one of its vet bonuses already at Vet0 to compensate (e.g., allow it to reload on the move at reduced speed), and prevent decrews while that happens.

At the same time, we could also fix a long-standing bug that makes Sturmtiger shots collide with elevation difference (e.g., minsk pocket)

We could also buff its grenade so that it's useful (currently the grenade is only theoretically useful at stunning tanks, but I doubt that anybody knew how to use it)

In that case, the Sturmtiger could keep its high damage, but it would still have to lose its crits. The crits, in particular allow the Sturmtiger to practically one-shot heavy tanks. The Sturmtiger has no business doing that.

At a later point, once we've figured out a solution that works for demo-charges, we could see if we could apply a similar solution to the AVRE/Sturmtiger.

lets just say that if you are going to for its ability to deal with medium tanks,then buff its ai power and decrease the reload time,so it can reload as fast as avre

...

Why not to make it like a mobile howi?

Unit which cant shoot on move, and it must be set up to fire its round. Imagine it like marder\PIV from PE in vCoH or KV-2. Leave same range or maybe even increase it a bit.

Set up time into "firing mode" should take about 4-5 seconds and same amount of time to move out of firing mode. Reload can be started only if firing mode is active.

In this case, you would have to make good preservation and pick good location to be able to use ST effectively. You would remove ability to hit-and-run but still would keep unit at the same power and usefullness.

Note that the Elite Armour doctrine suffers from being a bad doctrine carried by an OP Sturmtiger.

HEAT rounds are OK, but why pick them when Command Panther gives you a generalist tank PLUS aura PLUS a better-scaling buff?

Same for vehicle maphax; Command Panther doctrine gives you a better version of it that also improves your indirect fire accuracy (since it clears FOW) and allows your allies to fire indirect fire at will.

IMO the solution for the doctrine is fixing Crew repairs and Tank Commander, make both abilities solid for 1v1, and then smack down on the Sturmtiger so that it's less OP, and if possible also less situational.

Why not to make it like a mobile howi?

Unit which cant shoot on move, and it must be set up to fire its round. Imagine it like marder\PIV from PE in vCoH or KV-2. Leave same range or maybe even increase it a bit.

Set up time into "firing mode" should take about 4-5 seconds and same amount of time to move out of firing mode. Reload can be started only if firing mode is active.

In this case, you would have to make good preservation and pick good location to be able to use ST effectively. You would remove ability to hit-and-run but still would keep unit at the same power and usefullness.

While the idea is good, what I'm afraid that will happen is it will make Sturmtiger even more situational than before.

If you have Recon, then you are basically hardcountering the unit, as you will never walk into its arc of fire. If you don't, and the map happens to have buildings close to an area of great importance, then you can do absolutely nothing.

If Sturmtiger can't fire through shotblockers, then yes. All factions have counterplay to the Sturmtiger.

Alternatively, if the Sturmtiger can no longer oneshot mediums, then you can always have the option of yoloing through a chokepoint; you will still take losses, but you have better odds of getting the Sturmtiger.

the St prevent a player to get a other tank early. What does this mean? this mean allies have at this point 2-3 mediums on the field.
use it.

but: if u want to change it...make it like AVRE...this think is much Op than a ST...cause it need much less micro, faster reload, turrent, reload while moving, ...

it wipes much more units than ST....

That could work. Firing through shotblockers is what makes-or-breaks the unit in the "right" kind of maps. Due to its range, the list of shotblockers should also include forests, etc, however.

The sturmtiger could be given one of its vet bonuses already at Vet0 to compensate (e.g., allow it to reload on the move at reduced speed), and prevent decrews while that happens.

At the same time, we could also fix a long-standing bug that makes Sturmtiger shots collide with elevation difference (e.g., minsk pocket)

We could also buff its grenade so that it's useful (currently the grenade is only theoretically useful at stunning tanks, but I doubt that anybody knew how to use it)

In that case, the Sturmtiger could keep its high damage, but it would still have to lose its crits. The crits, in particular allow the Sturmtiger to practically one-shot heavy tanks. The Sturmtiger has no business doing that.

At a later point, once we've figured out a solution that works for demo-charges, we could see if we could apply a similar solution to the AVRE/Sturmtiger.

Deleting reload crits, removing anti heavy capabilities, fixing bugs and disallowing shooting through shotblockers should be enough. Maybe with increasing range to 50. There is no need to change too much becouse that may have unpredicted consequences. Especially as the unit is what I would consider a good spot taking into consideration only frequency of usage.

Deleting reload crits, removing anti heavy capabilities, fixing bugs and disallowing shooting through shotblockers should be enough. Maybe with increasing range to 50. There is no need to change too much becouse that may have unpredicted consequences. Especially as the unit is what I would consider a good spot taking into consideration only frequency of usage.

Frequency (i.e., reload speed) can also become better. The longer the delay between shots the more difficult it becomes to balance the unit. The sturmtiger currently takes 50 seconds, which makes it an all-or-nothing unit (like demos, or stuka dive bomb, etc).

Personally, I wouldn't increase range beyond 45, because most recon units have a range of 50.

For instance, if B4 could only fire a shot every 2 minutes, then that shot would better be damn good for the unit to be worth it. In that case though, the unit would be annoying as hell to play against.

If the B4 could fire 1 shot every 10 seconds, then you might as well turn that shot into a zis barrage, and the unit would be useful.