Cleaning up the 1v1 map pool(again)

Well. It would be nice to have a gameplay based analyse by a strategist.
Because everyone is always complaining about the map quality but there is still no useful feedback a mapper could work with to balance and adjust maps for the game.

I think Westwall is too open and big for a 1v1 map, hard to triple-cap and often ends in a capfest (to be clear about what I dislike most). I will provide you with more detailed feedback in the future though.

Well. It would be nice to have a gameplay based analyse by a strategist.
Because everyone is always complaining about the map quality but there is still no useful feedback a mapper could work with to balance and adjust maps for the game.

I think that'd be a fine addition to the strategy desk and a job for the strategists. Similar to replay reviews we could look at maps for map makers and try and give them idea on what is wrong and what could be done to fix it.

What do you think?

I think Westwall is too open and big for a 1v1 map, hard to triple-cap and often ends in a capfest (to be clear about what I dislike most). I will provide you with more detailed feedback in the future though.

To add to this it could help that the junctions could be more widened and rounded instead of one sharp corner as tanks frequently go retard mode fumbling around the junctions; particularly near the VP's.

Bryansk is a CQC oriented map, honestly I have no problems with the map except with OST/UKF which their HMGs are too easily flanked, but I can look away it's problems as it's one of the few new maps that I liked.

Halbe is too MG oriented with glorious red cover will get infantry massacred as they try to cross thus extremely benefiting long range units. Snipers are damn near unkillable with normal infantry flanks and light vehicles are overall very decisive on this map due to roads and huge sight lines. Not all factions have easily built cover on their mainline infantry and I can't be arsed to send my pioneers on sandbag building duty on all points.

I have no problems with Caen, except that when OKW spawns North and places the Shwerer HQ near the mid VP, OKW can place it such that the gun can fire over the rubble and cover the mid VP, but AT guns cannot fire back as they will hit the rubble instead.

Langreskaya and Crossroads could use the VPs placed a lot closer to the frontlines as it currently is extremely hard to triple cap given an even match. Crossroads VP could be placed along the dividing road between North and South. Honestly I don't know how to fix Langres VP placement without making it awkward.

Road to Kharkov, very narrow map that is compounded in 2v2s and pose a problem in 1v1 as HMGs could easily lockdown a sector and promotes arty wars and stale gameplay, plus bad spawns can ruin players.

La Gleize, remove it from the game.

Minsk Pocket, remove from 1v1, keep it for 2v2s. North/South VP placement should be switched with their Muni Points instead. I think it's the largest 1v1 map currently and makes FRPs very good.

Semiosky Summer should be removed, too chokepointy and easy to be base locked without arty and smoke(hint: OKW doesn't them)

Kholodny Ferma could use a VP placement change to as East Side has trouble holding them. Also remove winter version from the game because it's the exact same map but with deep snow that slows units down unnecessarily.

Well. It would be nice to have a gameplay based analyse by a strategist.
Because everyone is always complaining about the map quality but there is still no useful feedback a mapper could work with to balance and adjust maps for the game.

Do you mean the current maps or new develop maps?

Do you mean the current maps or new develop maps?

I think he is talking about both ones. As LordRommel already mentioned, feedback is fundamental for us. Beeing a community mapper often means getting your feedback from other mappers. This is quite helpful, but there aren´t many normal players commenting our work. People are complaining about community maps, but in my opinion they underestimate the importance of the creation process itself. We can´t do much after Relic added the finished products to the map rotation.

I think he is talking about both ones. As LordRommel already mentioned, feedback is fundamental for us. Beeing a community mapper often means getting your feedback from other mappers. This is quite helpful, but there aren´t many normal players commenting our work. People are complaining about community maps, but in my opinion they underestimate the importance of the creation process itself. We can´t do much after Relic added the finished products to the map rotation.

Of course we can't give feedback if we don't even know what maps will be made into the map pool. It would be a lot easier if we know what maps will be put into the map pool beforehand so we can go and test them since not all of us have time to test all the community maps.

Yes, it may be a good idea to give community a list of maps that are going in something like 2 to 4 weeks before including them, so that the community members, including strategists, have time to play on it and map maker has some time to use that suggestions in new iterations. There is no reason to treat community maps different than community patches.

Of course we can't give feedback if we don't even know what maps will be made into the map pool. It would be a lot easier if we know what maps will be put into the map pool beforehand so we can go and test them since not all of us have time to test all the community maps.

Last community maps are winners of Tric map contests. It means, that they were added as best of the suggested maps. For example threads about Westwall or Halbe was created in july 2016, so you have enough time to gave your feedback before maps were added to the game.

Also, iirc, there was a special thread for feedback after maps were added to the game.

Situation with Relic's maps is different since Relic's mapmakers not visiting .org or even doesn't work in Relic anymore

Last community maps are winners of Tric map contests. It means, that they were added as best of the suggested maps. For example threads about Westwall or Halbe was created in july 2016, so you have enough time to gave your feedback before maps were added to the game.

Also, iirc, there was a special thread for feedback after maps were added to the game.

Situation with Relic's maps is different since Relic's mapmakers not visiting .org or even doesn't work in Relic anymore

IIRC, more than just the winners were added..

Secondly, and this is with the wisdom of hindsight, there would have been less drama had the maps been put to a poll for the community to judge the winners.

Thirdly, mapmakers only take the advice that suits them. This is largely due to the fact they have their own vision or idea and often struggle to take opposing views seriously. In reality, the original map maker just probably step aside and allow another map make to make changes based upon community input (preferably from players who play multiple factions )

IIRC, more than just the winners were added.

Maybe you are right, i remember only about maps from Tric's contest.

Secondly, and this is with the wisdom of hindsight, there would have been less drama had the maps been put to a poll for the community to judge the winners.

Sounds like a good idea, but imo better to rely on professional mapmakers opinion first, who knows how to create a solid map. And then, as second level, community election

Well.
I have reworked Westwall and Rüstungswerke Essen basing on feedback. There were a small number of people who gave me feedback and i was happy about the feedback. It was important to rework my maps. I know that my maps arent perfect but i cant make them better without any feedback from pvp players.
I cant work on maps when u wont help me.
And i think that is the biggest problem between community mappers and pvp players; there is no method to help each other.

Edit: I would rework Westwall with your help because i want to keep the map ingame and i want to add a map for the pvp players.
And i think most of the mappers will share this point of view.

Well.
I have reworked Westwall and Rüstungswerke Essen basing on feedback. There were a small number of people who gave me feedback and i was happy about the feedback. It was important to rework my maps. I know that my maps arent perfect but i cant make them better without any feedback from pvp players.
I cant work on maps when u wont help me.
And i think that is the biggest problem between community mappers and pvp players; there is no method to help each other.

Edit: I would rework Westwall with your help because i want to keep the map ingame and i want to add a map for the pvp players.
And i think most of the mappers will share this point of view.

Rüstungswerke Essen = Steelwork essen from the 3vs3, 4vs4 pool? Did not knew that it got reworked. The map is still unbalanced^^

Rüstungswerke Essen = Steelwork essen from the 3vs3, 4vs4 pool? Did not knew that it got reworked. The map is still unbalanced^^

Do we plan creating short map feedbackey thread (in rooms where BS doesn't exit ofc)

Rüstungswerke Essen = Steelwork essen from the 3vs3, 4vs4 pool? Did not knew that it got reworked. The map is still unbalanced^^

Nope, it is this one https://www.coh2.org/topic/55889/2-rüstungswerke-essen-tank-factory-essen

Do we plan creating short map feedbackey thread (in rooms where BS doesn't exit ofc)

Better question will be: Will Relic change the maps when our Mapmakers change them^^

Nope, it is this one https://www.coh2.org/topic/55889/2-rüstungswerke-essen-tank-factory-essen

thx

Also if I'm not mistaken, adding more vetoes will, in the long-run cause more issues than it solves.

Every time you add a veto, you shrink the number of available players on automatch. Sure, a lot of players will choose to veto the same maps (because they're generally disliked), but if you don't choose the same maps, you limit your chances of matching and increase the wait time.

For a game in its twilight years, longer waiting times on Automatch queues are definitely not what we need!

I'm definitely open to the concept of "fixing" some maps, rather than removing them altogether. If this were possible!



I agree with MonolithicBacon if people submit their maps to a panel of judges made up from the senior staff from this site IE: map maker, strategist, Mod maker, then they can decide which maps are good enough or have potential. if any maps need adjusting then contact the person who created the map and assign a mentor in the department it needs work on. that way the map gets what it needs and the creators get help with map creation which should result in better maps for the future of coh2.

Better question will be: Will Relic change the maps when our Mapmakers change them^^

Well. Relic had updated my Westwall versions... so there is a small chance.

One of the major problems is, that almost nobody is playing custom games with custom maps on a relatively high standard. The same problem applies to Balance Previews. So the main game has to be used as a testing stage.
I think it would be a great Idea, to create a part of coh2.org dedicated to map testing. It should work kinda similar to replay reviews. Mapmakers would send in their maps and would receive quality feedback. Because let's face it maps are the only new content coming to the game, so they should be good.
I am willing to participate in such tests, but as a single person, I can´t achieve much.

Edit: One thing to add, is that the map makers perspective is also really important. His vision of the map and how it should be played is really helpful for giving feedback and making suggestions in how to improve it.

One of the major problems is, that almost nobody is playing custom games with custom maps on a relatively high standard. The same problem applies to Balance Previews. So the main game has to be used as a testing stage.
I think it would be a great Idea, to create a part of coh2.org dedicated to map testing. It should work kinda similar to replay reviews. Mapmakers would send in their maps and would receive quality feedback. Because let's face it maps are the only new content coming to the game, so they should be good.
I am willing to participate in such tests, but as a single person, I can´t achieve much.

Edit: One thing to add, is that the map makers perspective is also really important. His vision of the map and how it should be played is really helpful for giving feedback and making suggestions in how to improve it.

Here you go: https://www.coh2.org/forum/85/map-sharing