Teamgame dominant meta

What is the reason that we see balance focus on a two tier priority level (1v1 followed by other modes). I have played lots of RTS games over several decades and never seen an approach to balance like that.

I am genuinely curious why this game is treated different? Before anyone says it, asymmetry is not a good excuse. Think games like Generals which are even more asymmetrical than this one.

I'll hazard an explanation.

This is actually a game between Allies and Axis. There are five factions, but it is always Allies versus Axis. This was less of an issue at launch, when there were only two factions. But after WFA and then with Brits, the variety of teams has compounded the issue.

What this means is that outside 1v1s, everything is a team match. There is no FFA. You effectively have multiple varieties of two teams that are fundamentally different depending on combination. UKF strategic options in a 1v1 is entirely different than UKF with SU and USF. A team of two ostheer is entirely different than a team of OKW and Ostheer, and both play entirely different from ostheer in a 1v1.

(This is why winrates are absolutely meaningless outside of 1v1s as well. A 4v4 features up to 2 axis factions covering 4 player slots versus up to 3 allied factions covering 4 player slots. You can't discern the performance from a single faction in that environment.)

Also, unlike many RTS, maps almost entirely govern gameplay. I'm painting a very broad stroke, but things like resources tied to map control, sight/shot blockers necessitating unit positioning, directional cover, front/rear armor on vehicles, all have huge impacts on how units and factions interact. Map balance is such a crucial component of the CoH franchise. Though it is often overlooked and even ignored, the way maps play probably are more important than how factions are designed in teamgames. If anything it's a foundational component to faction design.

Also, it is not asymmetry for the sake of asymmetry, it's asymmetric balance. You know: a ton of bricks weighs the same as a ton of feathers. The problem with faction asymmetry is that the factions aren't exactly homologous, and especially since Brits, almost from different games.

The point about maps is brought up time and time again and then promptly forgotten. SC:BW was the biggest esport for forever precisely because they kept improving the competitive maps.

That being said, LOS and cover make it a much more nuanced job than your standard RTS.

Kubel spam in 4v4? You mean to tell me you don't have a single ally to build an m3 or infantry carriers from the British? That's on you and your team not having communication, synergy, and strat adjustment.

Let this be an example on problems of 4v4 persons commenting on balance. If you and your team go 4 USF then that's completely on you. So it's safe to assume your playing random, knowing that a skilled AT team can counter kubel spam easy.. smh..

Come on now, you cannot paint every one of us with the same brush.

Thats like me saying all 1v1 scrub's opinions are null and void because 1v1.

You might want to give usf some early at options do deal with kubel spam. You can easily bully usf off of fuel points with 2 kubels in maps like steppes. This strategy, when successful, has a snowballing effect for okw. If someone is brainlessly spamming one unit and beating you, something is wrong with counter play.

So you want to fix usf's late game? How to you propose you do that?

This problem I have brought out in official forum 2-3years before when the time kubel even have suppression. USF is forced to lose the early game fuel point in 4v4 is fucking retardly design. And all the people on forum just think the kubel is fine and answer me. "l2p and l2 flank".i dont even understand how to flank multiple moving suppression platform while having less squad on the field until now .Now this problem isn't as serious as before, but the majority of players in this forum is simply axis-favoured, though I really dont understand how vet0 at nade on usf will break the game when I proposed 2 years before. It just punish bad play of kubel. I simply hope there isn't a vote on the balance change of team game meta this time, otherwise It will simply nerf ally and buff axis again that make ally totally unplayable in team game.

I think I would easily pick current USF mortar over Soviet mortar, especially if I only have 4-man weapon crews. USF mortar has shorter range, but better packup-setup (which requires micro to use).

You simply dont understand 4v4 usf early game if you give out such a statement.

This problem I have brought out in official forum 2-3years before when the time kubel even have suppression. USF is forced to lose the early game fuel point in 4v4 is fucking retardly design. And all the people on forum just think the kubel is fine and answer me. "l2p and l2 flank".i dont even understand how to flank multiple moving suppression platform while having less squad on the field until now .Now this problem isn't as serious as before, but the majority of players in this forum is simply axis-favoured, though I really dont understand how vet0 at nade on usf will break the game when I proposed 2 years before. It just punish bad play of kubel. I simply hope there isn't a vote on the balance change of team game meta this time, otherwise It will simply nerf ally and buff axis again that make ally totally unplayable in team game.

Kubel doesn't suppress. However, I feel like it should have more health and less armor so that it can be more reliably damaged by small arms at range but still retain about the same amount of survivability against infantry squads. This will also help the allied infantry vet faster as they will deal more damage instead of their rounds defflecting and giving no vet, and will also punish kubelspamming a little more because they will take marginally longer to repair as well as the ablove stated points.

We made USF mortar range short, so that it's no longer spammable, and doesn't completely wreck OST early game in 1v1's, which is forced to be stationary by design; especially with 222 changes to respect the light-vehicle meta.

The USF mortar is supposed to carry you until you can field light vehicles or the pak howitzer. The pak howitzer itself does need some buffs. However, again, pak howitzer changes need to be carried out with respect to 1v1 sensitivities.

The trick with USF mortar is use barrage and relocate. With high setup/pack-up times, and prudent use (e.g., reinforcing in an ambulance), it can help you get through.

4v4-early game meta will always be a secondary concern compared to 1v1 balance. As factions get rebalanced, we cannot promise that early game meta will remain the same. e.g., 4v4 early-game was dominated hard by allies pre-patch; nowadays, it's the complete opposite.

At the very least, however, we -can- smooth out some of the 4v4 late-game issues to give all factions a remotely equal chance at the late-game. That way, if your faction happens to suck in the early game, you can always try to hold out until the late-game, try to outplay your opponent, and try to make up for it then.

Games that are decided within the first 10 minute mark are not interesting to play. We've already had that for 2 years pre-Brit release.

You already nerf the mid game of usf and take away the only turning chance of USF of light vehicle. I think you must give some thing back to USF early game so it isn't always forced to lose at the beginning.

There is two way to fix this issue. First is fix the unit of variety problem of USF, so it will actually be COH that the first unit is a paper ,scissor ,stone game . However I know it would be never happen because there is too much work to do so. The simple fix would be either buff USF first unit or Nerf OKW first unit ,so USF can have a chance to get into the building of controversial point or force the OKW sturm leave the building before the ost mg garrisoned into it. So axis wont be auto win in the very beginning of the game everytime and USF can actually play defensively until more type of unit is able to build.

You already nerf the mid game of usf and take away the only turning chance of USF of light vehicle. I think you must give some thing back to USF early game so it isn't always forced to lose at the beginning.

There is two way to fix this issue. First is fix the unit of variety problem of USF, so it will actually be COH that the first unit is a paper ,scissor ,stone game . However I know it would be never happen because there is too much work to do so. The simple fix would be either buff USF first unit or Nerf OKW first unit ,so USF can have a chance to get into the building of controversial point or force the OKW sturm leave the building before the ost mg garrisoned into it. So axis wont be auto win in the very beginning of the game everytime and USF can actually play defensively until more type of unit is able to build.

Why are you saying it's an "auto win" if Axis gets into a building? Use your free Mortar smoke, tech early grenades, throw frags. You have time in team games to dick around with teching because presumably someone on your team will get an AEC, T-70, ATG, etc. out fairly early so you don't have to worry about rushing to a Stuart as USF to counter the 222, Luchs, or OP (too much damage too quickly) Flame halftrack. Tech weapon racks while you're at it.

I think all the Allied nerfs last few patches have really, really put Allies on the backfoot in team games, but your complaining sounds like L2P issues and/or you just want things to be really easy. Nerfing Sturms and buffing Rear Echelons would absolutely break the USF vs. OKW early game considering Rifles are already quite a bit better than Volks. You're also complaining about how the Kubel should be nerfed in other posts... so you basically want to walk over OKW with no effort. Not going to happen.

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Also, unlike many RTS, maps almost entirely govern gameplay. I'm painting a very broad stroke, but things like resources tied to map control, sight/shot blockers necessitating unit positioning, directional cover, front/rear armor on vehicles, all have huge impacts on how units and factions interact. Map balance is such a crucial component of the CoH franchise. Though it is often overlooked and even ignored, the way maps play probably are more important than how factions are designed in teamgames. If anything it's a foundational component to faction design.

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well said.

Why are you saying it's an "auto win" if Axis gets into a building? Use your free Mortar smoke, tech early grenades, throw frags. You have time in team games to dick around with teching because presumably someone on your team will get an AEC, T-70, ATG, etc. out fairly early so you don't have to worry about rushing to a Stuart as USF to counter the 222, Luchs, or OP (too much damage too quickly) Flame halftrack. Tech weapon racks while you're at it.

I think all the Allied nerfs last few patches have really, really put Allies on the backfoot in team games, but your complaining sounds like L2P issues and/or you just want things to be really easy. Nerfing Sturms and buffing Rear Echelons would absolutely break the USF vs. OKW early game considering Rifles are already quite a bit better than Volks. You're also complaining about how the Kubel should be nerfed in other posts... so you basically want to walk over OKW with no effort. Not going to happen.

About USF, the complain are real.

VS OKW = Kubel spam works well because RM don´t do shit vs it. In 4vs4 vs OKW it is better to build 2xRE first to make sure you can counter kubels. The problem is that you get rekt soon after by ST/Volks.

VS OS = HMG spam, you simply can´t flank on 90% of maps

VS OS+OKW = its depend on your team mate faction but still, do not expect a UC to counter 2x or 3x Kubel start. M3 does better but come later, and a single gren squad backing the kubel is enough to stop you.

Solutions are multiple,
1- Replace ST by volks as OKW starting unit will reduce the kubel spam since you need to build a ST to repair them.
2- Put back the kubel where it belongs, a low armor unit with a MG to defend itself, not mean to be offensive or only as a long range support.

Re kubel: repair rate changes would help a teeny bit with reducing its potency

Rank is entirely relevant. It's a reflection of knowledge and experience. It's also a pretty good reflection of actual interest in balance.


If a doctor says "You have diabetes, you need a lifestyle change" and a fortune teller who sells chocolate says "nah, you need more chocolate", you take the doctor's opinion.

Rank > "I am human and deserve an opinion!"

Just to make it clear, I also think that high ranked players should be responsible for the future balance patches but I don't share the opinion, that only players with a Rank < 100 "know" the game.

I for myself got ranked as OKW rank 80 when WFA arrived. After that I dropped to about 400 - 500 where I stay for most of the time.
Still I have played the game since Alpha and vCoH since its release.

I am not "bad" but not "good" either. But this is not because of a lack of knowledge of Company of Heroes but simply because I don't have so much time for playing and also because I simply suck at microing a lot of units. I can kick your ass with a Puma but meanwhile my other units will die, haha.

Players like Hans and DevM simply are better at multitasking than most of us. But the main problems of the game should be obvious, even when playing on bad rank.

Why are you saying it's an "auto win" if Axis gets into a building? Use your free Mortar smoke, tech early grenades, throw frags. You have time in team games to dick around with teching because presumably someone on your team will get an AEC, T-70, ATG, etc. out fairly early so you don't have to worry about rushing to a Stuart as USF to counter the 222, Luchs, or OP (too much damage too quickly) Flame halftrack. Tech weapon racks while you're at it.

I think all the Allied nerfs last few patches have really, really put Allies on the backfoot in team games, but your complaining sounds like L2P issues and/or you just want things to be really easy. Nerfing Sturms and buffing Rear Echelons would absolutely break the USF vs. OKW early game considering Rifles are already quite a bit better than Volks. You're also complaining about how the Kubel should be nerfed in other posts... so you basically want to walk over OKW with no effort. Not going to happen.

You smoke the garrsioned MG doesn't mean there isn't another MG behind can fire on you. Not to mention volks blob and sturm and flame nade will shred you into pieces once the smoke is gone. And also not to mention rifleman will get out-numbered by volks no matter you tech for nade or not in the early game. And also not to mention one or even two MKII nades are too weak to clear a full health garrisoned mg42. Just try to play more team game as USF on high level 4v4 matches .

Lots of people suggesting replacing SP with Volks as starting unit.

This is just not a good plan. It will mean OKW will have nothing to stop Brits from controlling key points at the start of the game. Volks cannot compete with inf section at the start of the game in the hands of equally talented players on an equal map.

Really I hate to say it but Sturms need their AT role taken away and then tone their damage down slightly. Shreks needs to go back to Volks. The kill all terminator Volks blobs wont be so big if players have to make tactical decisions about which sets of Volks to outfit as AT (I.E. shrek) and which as AI (I.E. StG).

Probably though, this kind of stuff will be way outside of Relics allowed scope anyways.

Maybe rank as is isnt relevat, but still feedback from top 10 player like luvnest or devm is far more valuable than from someone eho doesnt even visible his own playercard.

Just saying

Did thay dont give feedback about penals and another things ?

You already nerf the mid game of usf and take away the only turning chance of USF of light vehicle. I think you must give some thing back to USF early game so it isn't always forced to lose at the beginning.

There is two way to fix this issue. First is fix the unit of variety problem of USF, so it will actually be COH that the first unit is a paper ,scissor ,stone game . However I know it would be never happen because there is too much work to do so. The simple fix would be either buff USF first unit or Nerf OKW first unit ,so USF can have a chance to get into the building of controversial point or force the OKW sturm leave the building before the ost mg garrisoned into it. So axis wont be auto win in the very beginning of the game everytime and USF can actually play defensively until more type of unit is able to build.

Yes, make them extremely powerful at the early game and then drop off hard from mid-game onwards. Personally, I think USF is such a boring faction, you either win the game early to mid or you (most often) lose in late game.

Lots of people suggesting replacing SP with Volks as starting unit.

This is just not a good plan. It will mean OKW will have nothing to stop Brits from controlling key points at the start of the game. Volks cannot compete with inf section at the start of the game in the hands of equally talented players on an equal map.

Really I hate to say it but Sturms need their AT role taken away and then tone their damage down slightly. Shreks needs to go back to Volks. The kill all terminator Volks blobs wont be so big if players have to make tactical decisions about which sets of Volks to outfit as AT (I.E. shrek) and which as AI (I.E. StG).

Probably though, this kind of stuff will be way outside of Relics allowed scope anyways.

Giving strum to okw is not a good plan either. It means ally have nothing to stop okw from controlling key point at the start of the game.