Teamgame dominant meta

If you do demos in the future, just have one dude survive if only one squad is in its radius. If two or more squads are in the radius, they will all die.

This will help single squads survive capping, but will have the same effect on blobs.

I actually like that idea. Maybe do the same with commando gammon bomb against team weapons? I feel really dirty using it and just wiping an mg with no possible counter play.

First off: can we please get some workshop 4v4 maps put in the ladder next patch? I'm practically begging here. Anyway...

I highly support the following changes:

• Nerfing Stuka dive bomb. It's highly unpredictable considering how many places it could land in a 4v4, and it nullifies the Soviet howitzers
  
• Nerfing Calliope health
  
• Changing how demo charges work
  
• Toning down the Elefant/Jagdtiger. Open maps like Vielsalm are insta-vetoes for Allies purely on the basis of these two tanks. They're just i-win buttons in the right maps. You need to be careful, though, because there is a very fine line where even a slight change will nerf them out of the game.
  

There are a few I don't like:

• Priest should remain de-crewable if only to let it repair itself. USF late game sucks enough as it is. I would honestly be okay with the Calliope getting this ability back if its health gets lowered (which I support)
  
• Nerfing the Calliope barrage. If it's going down to Katyusha levels, then why should it cost 140 fuel? Just keep it the way it is. The health is the only problem with it.
  
• Sturmtiger is already such a situational, gimmicky unit. I'm fine with lowering its damage to tanks, but if you make it incompatible with the KT, it's gonna be seen even less.
  
• Heavily nerfing Firefly performance, at least with its current price. I'd prefer just leaving them how they are.
  
• Changing howitzer costs. They're fine as they are.
  

There are some other changes that I feel need mentioning:

• Soviets and Wehrmacht need a repair speed buff and/or repair should give vet (for all repair units)
  
• Soviets and Wehrmacht need a forward retreat point. I know this is controversial, but the lack of one is such a massive disadvantage compared to the new factions. I don't want them removed from other factions; they're fun to saturate with arty. They're a good risk/reward that I'd hate to see removed.
  
• Katyusha shouldn't have a creeping barrage. The vet 1 ability should be a full-salvo barrage, considering how that's they were actually used. Hell, I'd be okay with that just being the default firing mode. Katyushas never did this funky delay-fire.
  
• ISU-152 is a worthless piece of garbage. There is absolutely no reason to use this unit ever. It can't rotate to save its life, it can barely pen tanks, it can't reliably shoot over sight blockers, and even the HE shells usually kill one model, two if you're lucky.
  
• IS-2 could use a slight accuracy buff.
  
• The ratio of effort of setting up British emplacement versus countering emplacements is way out of wack. Brace is the main culprit here. The only reliable counter are Ost's doctrinal mortar halftracks with the incendiary barrage.
  
• USF needs a more reliable way to give vision to Jacksons
  
• Shermans shouldn't stop moving when launching their smoke bombs. This seems like an oversight that's never been fixed.
  
• Current Maxim needs a slight suppression buff. It's horrible right now (though I like the new vet 1 ability).
  
• MG-34 should suck a lot less. I'd support increasing its price if it meant better stats. Also, can we change its sound to something more menacing? It sounds like a peashooter.
  
• It feels totally wrong thematically to have penal battalions as Soviets' frontline infantry.Penals should be a more specialized unit; buff conscripts to compensate, even if only a late game buff since they barely scale. I would recommend experimenting with making penals doctrinal, then putting guards in the special rifle command.
  

First off: can we please get some workshop 4v4 maps put in the ladder next patch? I'm practically begging here. Anyway...

Could you provide me with a list of 4v4 maps you found to your liking?

• Priest should remain de-crewable if only to let it repair itself. USF late game sucks enough as it is. I would honestly be okay with the Calliope getting this ability back if its health gets lowered (which I support)
  

We could, alternatively fix USF popcap abuse by making decrewed tanks retain their popcap. That would require us to rework a crapton of USF squad popcap values, otherwise USF late-game is toast.

• Nerfing the Calliope barrage. If it's going down to Katyusha levels, then why should it cost 140 fuel? Just keep it the way it is. The health is the only problem with it.
  

What I meant by nerfing Calliope to Katyusha levels, I meant nerfing alpha strike. The current barrage pattern is 10-8. We could turn it into 6-6-6 or something like that and see how it works.

• Heavily nerfing Firefly performance, at least with its current price. I'd prefer just leaving them how they are.
  

The moment 2 Fireflies join forces, it is impossible for Axis tanks to penetrate Fireflies.. unless there are heavy TDs involved, which we also nerf.

• USF needs a more reliable way to give vision to Jacksons
  

M20 would automatically become more reliable by the nerf to heavy TDs. No longer will the minelayer/scout unit of the USF be blown up just because an Elefant/JT stared at it for a second

• Shermans shouldn't stop moving when launching their smoke bombs. This seems like an oversight that's never been fixed.
  

We can't fix this; if we fix it, this might break Sherman smoke to malfunction like Cromwell smoke shell (Fixed Cromwell smoke shells now also cause Cromwells to stop moving).

You can issue a movement command right after the smoke command, and the Sherman can keep moving.

But what about stuff like the kt, elefant, or jt? Unless you have like ten fireflies, they'll just waltz away after being hit by the rockets and there's nothing the brits can do about it, unless they are extremely severely ridiculously overextended without support and some guy happens to have an aec to maybe stun it if it doesn't get blown to shit by at or miss. If all that gets is disabled is vision and weapons, it's literally just the stuart stun shot with longer range, some (pretty good) damage, and two times the cost on a vehicle three times as expensive (and the cost to upgrade the rocket racks). It practically won't be worth using on heavies except to finish them off. If brits had a traditional snare, this would be fine.

With repair speed normalization it will be a while until the heavy kitties can re-enter the field. At the same time, you can start pushing the enemy off, or chase after with your flanker tanks.

The job of Fireflies is to soften enemy heavies and keep them at bay. If you want to go for the kill, you need to have some flanker tanks nearby to finish the job.

If you really want to snare something, build an AEC.

Could you provide me with a list of 4v4 maps you found to your liking?

My pleasure! As a matter of fact, voila, I have such a list right here! Please consider making this a high priority if it's within your power. All my mates agree that new maps would be a godsend, even more so than balance changes.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/60448/please-please-put-in-more-automatch-4v4-maps/page/1#post_id603518

I'm at the point where I don't even care which ones, and would be thrilled to just throw in a dozen or so maps at once. The current ones are so stale that anything new would be welcome, and there are plenty of good ones among the sea of crappy 4v4 maps.

We could, alternatively fix USF popcap abuse by making decrewed tanks retain their popcap. That would require us to rework a crapton of USF squad popcap values, otherwise USF late-game is toast.

I agree it's a tricky dilemma to solve. I just hope USF popcap abuse doesn't lead to getting rid of one of the most flavorful aspects of the USF lategame (vehicle decrewing).

What I meant by nerfing Calliope to Katyusha levels, I meant nerfing alpha strike. The current barrage pattern is 10-8. We could turn it into 6-6-6 or something like that and see how it works.

Ah, that makes sense. Carry on then.

The moment 2 Fireflies join forces, it is impossible for Axis tanks to penetrate Fireflies.. unless there are heavy TDs involved, which we also nerf.

You know, I can actually agree. The Tulips are pretty obnoxious; I'm just hesitant to change them because of 1) Firefly's cost and 2) Firefly's slow fire rate. If these things were tuned, I probably wouldn't complain.

M20 would automatically become more reliable by the nerf to heavy TDs. No longer will the minelayer/scout unit of the USF be blown up just because an Elefant/JT stared at it for a second

That could work, though all light vehicles require immense babysitting to keep alive in the late game regardless of Jadg/Elefant.

We can't fix this; if we fix it, this might break Sherman smoke to malfunction like Cromwell smoke shell (Fixed Cromwell smoke shells now also cause Cromwells to stop moving).

You can issue a movement command right after the smoke command, and the Sherman can keep moving.

Aww, I'm sorry to hear this. I've learned to deal with it; it's just a minor annoyance.

AEC could use a health buff then, if it really is gonna be the only snare/stun thing brits have access to (infantry section gammon bomb doesn't count; I think it's really more of a force multiplier after a tank gets stunned by tulips or aec, since it has a crazy dodgeable ~4(ish) second fuse. Hell, even give it an upgrade like the m20's (which in its case, desperately needs to be stock IMO). Otherwise it won't really be able to do its job effectively in the late game, and will be the only unit with that capability.

Oh! You know one thing I forgot to mention? The tooltip for the British tank commander upgrade hasn't been updated to reflect its new stats. Just an FYI.

You make some good points, but there are some things for which a second look or another persective might be helpful:

There are some other changes that I feel need mentioning:

• Soviets and Wehrmacht need a repair speed buff and/or repair should give vet (for all repair units)
  

It would be better if the other factions had their repair speed reduced to match the level of ost and soviets. Getting a tank heavily damaged should be something that has an effect on field presence just like it has for ost and soviets. It is completely besides the point what can be seen in some okw games with near dead kts that are back on the field before the mediums of the other side.

• Soviets and Wehrmacht need a forward retreat point. I know this is controversial, but the lack of one is such a massive disadvantage compared to the new factions. I don't want them removed from other factions; they're fun to saturate with arty. They're a good risk/reward that I'd hate to see removed.
  

This is a terrible idea. Forward retreat point promote bad gameplay and blobing and make retreats less impactful. MGs have less of an impact and soft retreating is relegated to being near pointless. Personally, I think the game would be better off with all forward retreats gone.

• Katyusha shouldn't have a creeping barrage. The vet 1 ability should be a full-salvo barrage, considering how that's they were actually used. Hell, I'd be okay with that just being the default firing mode. Katyushas never did this funky delay-fire.
  

The Katyusha is currently the best (and potentially only) example of a balanced and well working mobile artillery unit. Units that fire their complete ordinance at once with little delay have no counter play and provide cheap wipe potential.

Demo charge rework
Trial-and-error.

Why not remove it and just give everyone access to s-mines instead?

I'm making this post give a glimpse about how we (the balance team) feel teamgame dominant meta could be changed to be more fun and more diverse.

Part of the reason I'm making this post is to openly declare our intentions to the community and get some feedback.

Preface

Show Spoiler

Highest priority changes

Show Spoiler

High priority cheese

Show Spoiler

1v1-affecting cheese

Show Spoiler

Good-to-have stuff

Show Spoiler

Good changes, I agree all of them! Cant wait to see!

Some more units/abilities are needed to be addressed:
1.Conscript toooooooooooo weak,may be initial cost cheaper to open more viable choice for SU opening.

2.Stuka arrive too early considering all rocket artillery average arrival time.

3.SCAS still stronger than P47 while cheaper.

4.Heroic charge, you understand.

5.PM 81 really need slightly buff

6.Volks build time or initial price increase, because OKW early game always out-number (e.g. 4-5 volks +1 strum vs 1 rear +3 rifle) other factions which give them absolute advantage in team game.

Mr. Smith,

is it in the scope of the balance team to change resource income in 3s and 4s?

Specifically, would it be possible to lower the fuel income in the larger team games?

I would definitely like to see more or new maps for the 4v4 pool, its been the same for so long I forget what its like to be able to play on new maps.

At the same time if we do increase the pool don't forget the need for more vetoes.
I rly like all of these changes especially the ones for the super heavy TDs, this has been a long term issue of mine where the jagdtiger simply would require you to throw everything at it. I also like the idea of a change to the dive bomb (god playing this game depth would suck) or reduce its reliability vs static arty.


On a completely different side note, where did my WC-51 changes go and can we get a 1 cp reduction on kv-2?

The playcard only shows your top ranked team faction and mode. I play Allies as much as I play axis dude

You have 4 games of 4v4 as random USF. You have 404 games as random OST. That's a very interesting definition of "as much as".

Please show us the replay where you isolated the Elefant using smoke and killed it with Shermans.

I would definitely like to see more or new maps for the 4v4 pool, its been the same for so long I forget what its like to be able to play on new maps.

At the same time if we do increase the pool don't forget the need for more vetoes.
I rly like all of these changes especially the ones for the super heavy TDs, this has been a long term issue of mine where the jagdtiger simply would require you to throw everything at it. I also like the idea of a change to the dive bomb (god playing this game depth would suck) or reduce its reliability vs static arty.


On a completely different side note, where did my WC-51 changes go and can we get a 1 cp reduction on kv-2?

WC-51 changes? Like what? Haven't seen that jeep mentioned on the forums in a long time.

You have 4 games of 4v4 as random USF. You have 404 games as random OST. That's a very interesting definition of "as much as".

Please show us the replay where you isolated the Elefant using smoke and killed it with Shermans.

What about the thread creator's playercard though, is it non-biased?

And how about yours as well? 300 4vs4 games as USF, non as any other factions (Expect 14 games as OKW, lul.


Please post the replay where you got raped by elefants.

No offense man, but you are obviously quite biased here - I suggest you start playing allies for a bit. You are already quite familiar with 3v3+ teamgames judging from your playercard so it shouldn't be too troublesome to get into the game.

Unfortunately the vast amount of people here argueing have never stood on the receiving side or play mainly 1v1 and 2v2 where HeavyTDs are either useless or significant weaker.

I wish you the best of luck in trying to get anything changed for the better for allies. The only things that are likely to come out of this is that the Calliope will be nerfed into uselessness, and possibly the Priest as well, all for a 40 damage reduction on the Ele which won't make any practical difference.

yeah let axis nerf more.

But wayne...since i switched to sovjets...the life is so easy on CoH2.

Who need jgpz4, when u can get such a great Su85 with long range view and shots like a minigun?

What about the thread creator's playercard though, is it non-biased?

And how about yours as well? 300 4vs4 games as USF, non as any other factions (Expect 14 games as OKW, lul.


Please post the replay where you got raped by elefants.

Mr Smith's player card doesn't stick out as biased, but some of us gave really negative feedback about the WPB and he ignored it. The negative feedback turned out to be a pretty good prediction of what was going to happen. I don't know Mr Smith, but it looks like he was made the lead of this "community" balancing team and delivered the nerfs that most of the community wanted, which were pretty one-sided. Even the changes in thread will probably turn out to be a net negative for USF.

As to your comments about my player card, for the first couple years that I played, I played almost exclusively allied, but started playing roughly equal amounts about a year ago. Wait another week and you'll see almost all of my allied rankings on hold. I tried a couple games of most factions to see if it was as bad as I thought it was going to be.

Also, 146+38+14+90=292 I'm sure you have a good reason for thinking those numbers add up to 14 but maybe you should spend some remedial math time instead of "lul" time.

Has 60 seconds of use, during this time receives planes with supplies. It has no cooldown, so in teamgames it is hight abusable. This abilities belongs to CAS comander and other commanders.

Has 60 seconds of use, during this time receives planes with supplies. It has no cooldown, so in teamgames it is hight abusable. This abilities belongs to CAS comander and other commanders.

It is balanced because both this ability and the allied ones fly over the Axis base. The allied ones get shot down because it would lead to abuse if they didn't get shot down. Asymmetric balance

Demo charge rework

Trial-and-error

If there is one thing i would like to see removed it is the demo charge concept at all. I mean: 90 ammunition nobrainer wipe machine with nearly no counter (I know they can be spotted with minesweeper, however at some point of the game you cannot have them everywhere). I would appreciate it to see this ability replaced with the booby trap ability like one OKW has. Still slows down a decap of a strategic point and hurt the advancing player without the cheese of a full sqaut wipe (espacially when they are vet3)
Anyway keep up the good work and thanks for the (already great) effort!

Also, imo there is something very stupid about how often we see the Guard Motor commander in 2v2 regardless of map, enemies and general situation. Simply spam some penals, then go over into 1-2 120mms and later spam t34-85s. With the mark target ability you shouldnt have too much trouble getting rid of enemy heavies. This commander is just all-around good with excellent abilities throughout. Just arty is missing but can be made up for with 120mms and Katys.

Its just good meta doc, like ostheer with ele + dive bomb, like tiger + OP planes, like commanpanther, like JT doc. Thats why you see it so many, but i whanna remember thatsoviet dont have armor in tiers, dont have elite infatry, like another factions, so go doc for soviet is life, no doc, no win.