Brummbär overperforming

brummbar OP hahahaha, op seems like he just came from a game getting his backside kicked by this unit.

Its a t4 late game anti AI unit and it needs to excel in it or people would just go for the ostwind instead if the brumbbar is nerfed. AND WTF, people talking about its AT capability? NO ONE GETS THIS UNIT FOR AT.

All sorts of counters will be on the field by the time this unit hits the field, the only time this unit will be problematic or "OP" as stated earlier is when its used with combination with the elephant, but thata a problem with the elephant NOT THE BRUMMBAR.

Actually the M8A1 is the only stock unit that keep USF alive late game.

yeah once lose vet inf it pretty hard to comeback or even bleed the opponent

It's beyond me how units that haven't been changed in months suddenly become OP. I mean with virtually no comments/complains mentioned by units, then one week it's OP. And it's not patch related.

1. Infantry just received a spacing modification
2. Brummbar with elephant? The fuel requirements alone for both these units is atrocious
3. It's one of the few axis units that keeps allied infantry from just roaming around in all the yellow cover created by the landmattress/katushas/calliope,. Units that you virtually see every game....
4. Back to the brumbar with elephant, the time OH receives both these units I couldn't imagine the amount of mediums/heavies allies would have.
5. It's pathetic due to the fact OH is always reacting to the allies strategies, very rarely does the OH has a shock unit or shock strategy that forces the allies into a commander choice or tier build in the same concept, it's a lethal unit, it's supposed to be.
6. Next week what's next that's OP? Oh wait it's the elephant lol another unit that is suddenly OP without change for months/years.
7. Not to say wrongs makes rights, but damn, it's not like the panzerwerfer does its job, it's not like the oswtind does its job, it's not like the p4 does its job, they are all shitty AI.
8. So OH is supposed to use AT guns (which we all know how long these last against allied artillery) to stall to a late tier, then bust out a AI unit. So stall with a brummbar/AT guns till you have enough fuel to get an elephant. Smh. okayyy

its lol ..... u need nearly 1000 fuel to get this both unit on the field...and the noobs cry that they are op.

It's beyond me how units that haven't been changed in months suddenly become OP. I mean with virtually no comments/complains mentioned by units, then one week it's OP. And it's not patch related.

1. Infantry just received a spacing modification
2. Brummbar with elephant? The fuel requirements alone for both these units is atrocious
3. It's one of the few axis units that keeps allied infantry from just roaming around in all the yellow cover created by the landmattress/katushas/calliope,. Units that you virtually see every game....
4. Back to the brumbar with elephant, the time OH receives both these units I couldn't imagine the amount of mediums/heavies allies would have.
5. It's pathetic due to the fact OH is always reacting to the allies strategies, very rarely does the OH has a shock unit or shock strategy that forces the allies into a commander choice or tier build in the same concept, it's a lethal unit, it's supposed to be.
6. Next week what's next that's OP? Oh wait it's the elephant lol another unit that is suddenly OP without change for months/years.
7. Not to say wrongs makes rights, but damn, it's not like the panzerwerfer does its job, it's not like the oswtind does its job, it's not like the p4 does its job, they are all shitty AI.
8. So OH is supposed to use AT guns (which we all know how long these last against allied artillery) to stall to a late tier, then bust out a AI unit. So stall with a brummbar/AT guns till you have enough fuel to get an elephant. Smh. okayyy

Balance is relative. Changes to counterparts are enough to make untouched things become OP.

Allied infantry has been nerfed. Light vehicles (of which allied ones were the most powerful) were nerfed. Brit tanks and most OP commander abilities have been nerfed.

All of this creates a power vacuum that the next-in-line OP units can abuse. OP Elefants and Stuka Dive bombs have been part of the abuse-meta for ages. However those were kept in check by equivalent OP allied unit/ability scaling.

With the counterparts nerfed, those remaining units that were justifiably OP are now unjustifiably ridiculous.

However, once again IMO, the OP is not identifying the cause of the imbalance correctly. It's OKW teammates and OP Elefant doctrine that's causing the issues; not the Brummbar per se.

Brummbar OP ok. Are you playing team games or 1v1 because they're very different. If 1v1 given the fuel cost and research the Brummbar is a very risky investment even compared to the Panther. You should have at least two tanks to counter his one Brummbar unless you got outplayed massively.

For team games, its more of an issue that the Elephant has too much damage given its range and able to mine its flanks means Allied mediums have a hard time flanking unless the Axis team is impotent.

With the recent changes to OKW faust, pretty much OKW lies at the mercy of Flamer M3 combo or even WC51 rushes in open maps, but get them to stabilise in the late game then the only Allied faction that can stand up to them is Brits with Tulip Fireflies.

OKW right now is very lopsided, pathetic early game with correct Allied scout car rush play and OP AF late game with vet 5.

How is the Elefant suddenly OP?

The unit is basically designed to be flanked. If I´m not mistaken it is literally the slowest unit in the game. Further it needs additional AT support to be viable. This is a highly expensive and fragile cardhouse. Circle it with medium tanks and it´s done. Kill the support and the Elefant can´t get off more than one shot.

Somethign similar can be said for the Brummbär. By the time you can invest 150 fuel in a pure AI unit, you are facing Allied tanks. One micro mistake and the cardhouse collapses.

I highly dislike that so few members of this games community are allowed to decide the fate of the entire game.

It's honest to god bullshit and I'd be surprised if anyone buys it. Elephant and brumbar been around, and as of this week they are OP. Same was with the command panther. Suddenly a month before the tourney it becomes OP. Like wtf. I find it EXTREAMLY difficult to field an OH tier 4 unit then an expensive call in such as elephant and have that be an OP strategy. Do people for get that OH has to tech tier 1 and 2 virtually every game? I guess flanking an elephant is no longer possible if it's backed up by a brumbar, cuz them alone stop a horrid of tanks/infantry.

AT guns/comets/jacksons/su85setc/ in SUPPORT, KEY WORD SUPPORT of infantry with multi points of attack is enough to detour a brumbar, especially if armour piercing rounds are used from AT guns/jacksons. Brumbar doesn't wipe squads every shot, elephant is completely useless against infantry. We arnt talking 1v1s because elephant is never and tier 4 is rare.and by the time you field both it's GG by and respectable medium spam.

So assuming we are talking 2v2s and up, COMBINED ARMS FROM COMBINED ARMYS.... with the use of COMBINED DOCTRINES.

Don't forget a brummbar can take on a sherman if you let it. The high frontal armor and deflection damage makes for an easy clean up of medium armor in my experience.

Wehr T4 is already rarely played, cause u need often T3 to survive midgame. Stugs + Callin > Panther. Panzerwerfer is ok, Brummbär should be good for this high (tech)price.

Btw elephant doctrine was just nerfed a bit, cause u can no longer basebomb the retreating blob.

I think the way the game has evolved, rocket artillery is better spreaded and in multiples with high rocket damage over accurate, 1 burst, less rocket damage.

Hence why the panzerwerfer is never built in 2s compared to its counterparts. I often see the panzerwerfer score a direct hit on an AT gun and not wipe or a retreat before the rockets get to the destination. When at max range the individual rockets simply don't do enough damage.

You wouldn't get off building 2 or 3 pwerfers with the mainline army being panzer Grens with shrecks with lmg grens like what you seen in the 2v2 tourney....

So assuming we are talking 2v2s and up, COMBINED ARMS FROM COMBINED ARMYS.... with the use of COMBINED DOCTRINES.

Ele/JT/ISU/Howitzers were niche/situational units for 1v1 but the norm on 2v2. Let's not be hypocrites and say everyone needs to have a "Command PV/JT/Ele" in their loadouts as Axis or CalliOP/Party-Cover/LM/Guard Motor as allies if you want to increase your chances to win.

Such combined arms going mass CalliOP with double bar Rifles/RE zook and Party Cover spam with Comets vs JT or Ele with Command PV/PIV with CAS or Stuka support. It reminds me of how every game before WFA was ISU152 vs Ele.

How is the Elefant suddenly OP?

The unit is basically designed to be flanked. If I´m not mistaken it is literally the slowest unit in the game. Further it needs additional AT support to be viable. This is a highly expensive and fragile cardhouse. Circle it with medium tanks and it´s done. Kill the support and the Elefant can´t get off more than one shot.

IMO, it's less about the Elephant and more about the JT. The range discrepancy makes it easier to push the Ele with AT guns or have it closer to the front, while 85 range on the JT let it sit safe on the back. Nevertheless the most popular Ele doctrine also has the Stuka Dive, which makes it your best option at killing support weapons (mostly AT guns).
There's also plenty of maps on 2v2+ which makes flanking not a real option.

Copying from an older post

-Stuka bomb strike aoe distance from 3.75/5.625/7.5 to 3.75/7.5/11.25, mid damage from 0.15 to 0.35 (large buff)
-It seeems it added death critical on damage (so it's the same been near or far away from the explosion).

-Pre ninja buff: lethal range 6.5
-After ninja buff: lethal range 15

If the Stuka Dive Bomb wasn't UP before, and nobody ever asked for a buff, why did it merit a 5-times increase of the killing area?

I wouldn't mind making the Railway Artillery having this power, but not a pinpoint sound based ability which only cost 160muni.
IB4: but demos! Yeah, those are stupid as well.

On an unrelated note i would like seeing test, Howitzers costing less mp but fuel AND having extra damage against heavies and even more super-heavies. LeFH, 152, B4 (it should be 2 shots with half the damage), Priest, Suxton. 25% and 50% respectively (it would go to 200-240).

TL;DR:
-Brummbar is fine.
-Elephant is fine. The doctrine on which it belongs it's not, mostly Stuka Dive. The rest are fine&good abilities which unfortunately will always overshadow other commanders.
-JT is not fine.
-Many maps which makes super units be highly oppressive with little variety of counterplay.

I wouldn't say that damage is okay for the ele but the other stats are fair and allow for counter play.
I would say jagtigers issue is its range.

Getting back on topic, the Brummbar is a multi role vehicle in its current stats. It has high front armor, high deflection damage, meaning you can push medium armor.

2v2's - 4v4's the brummbar is over performing in its ability to wipe squads in one shot. A more fair option would be to normalize its damage to reduce the chance of its 1 firing squads. Trading of either armor or deflection damage would give it less utility but would keep it from preforming a role it isn't really designed to fill.

TLDR: The Brummbar can fill the role of a P4 (due to good AI, and high deflection damage vs armor) and as such might need tweaking

The Brummbär is still a rare sight due to being a T4 vehicle and the 150 fuel usually being better spend on a generalist tanks instead of a sole Anti-infantry assault gun.
However, once it has the needed support it can unfold its full potential.

"Attack ground" is the magic word and here is how it works:
Under normal conditions (no attack ground) the Brummbär will aim at the place of a unit's current position and fire on that place. The unit will have usually be gone by then thanks to the low projectile speed and even when it hits, it will often just hit 1 model (which usually is far away from it's own squadmates).
Using attack ground you can predict the units movement and shoot between them, hitting multiple models at once. This is possible because the Brummbär has almost pinpoint accuracy due to low maximum scatter.
For comparison: Brummbär has 2.5 while the 105mm sherman has 4.80 with lower AoE.
Using teamweapons and cover becomes obsolete and even AT guns die to the 60 range bunker busting charge (1st shot always goes straight into the middle).

Scatter should be normalized.

Incoming:
#nobodyusesBrummbaer
#brummbaerisshit(neverusedattackground)
#alliedinfantryop
#redt3rrorsucks

Other uses for attack ground: Place behind shot blocker so AT gun can't hit, lob shells onto mortar pit. Kind of fun when playing against Brits

Late game it is really bad having to face it as USF. Most people charge in with the first shot being the bunker buster that wipes your first AT gun, second and third shots wipe your other AT gun, after that you have to decide how many rifle models do you want to bleed to try to force it to retreat. I wish they would nerf this to similar performance to the Sherman bulldozer, but I'm sure that won't happen. Someone will come up with some spiffy reason why the Brummbaer needs to be better.

#cannotcompareunitsinavacuum
#axistankshavetobebetter

Balance is relative. Changes to counterparts are enough to make untouched things become OP.

Allied infantry has been nerfed. Light vehicles (of which allied ones were the most powerful) were nerfed. Brit tanks and most OP commander abilities have been nerfed.

All of this creates a power vacuum that the next-in-line OP units can abuse. OP Elefants and Stuka Dive bombs have been part of the abuse-meta for ages. However those were kept in check by equivalent OP allied unit/ability scaling.

With the counterparts nerfed, those remaining units that were justifiably OP are now unjustifiably ridiculous.

However, once again IMO, the OP is not identifying the cause of the imbalance correctly. It's OKW teammates and OP Elefant doctrine that's causing the issues; not the Brummbar per se.

Elephant is OP on certain maps. On others its completely useless. Keep that in mind. Some units simply shine more in certain scenarios than others. Elephants for example are useless in more urban maps with loads of flank points which is where faster allied tanks excel. I think elephant is fine. With scopes? No longer fine. I think thats the reason you arent saying jagdtiger is op?

so what i get from this thread is mr.smith(as wit his usual allied bias).......thinks okw is issue again but ignores that the units are super expenisve and have huge weakness(axis units are kind of specialist at least preserve some asymmetry .....and claims they are op and will nerf them...cant wait for 70 % winrate of allies again...............and like usual its still the majority of allied fanboys around claiming things to be op unitil every axis units is nerfed to the ground...all the axis players or fanboys have left so forums are filled with allied bias..which can easily screw perception.

edit : also sometimes units look op to medium players but in pro scene its completely different ball

See what he did now? Now we went from Brummbar op to Axis op. This man is efficient!

Elephant is OP on certain maps. On others its completely useless. Keep that in mind. Some units simply shine more in certain scenarios than others. Elephants for example are useless in more urban maps with loads of flank points which is where faster allied tanks excel. I think elephant is fine. With scopes? No longer fine. I think thats the reason you arent saying jagdtiger is op?

Jagdtiger is beyond OP. The reason I'm not bringing this up is because Brummbar is not an Ostheer unit.

The reason why Elefant is OP is because it is a medium-tank wiper machine. You get an Elefant Soviet TDs are out of the game. Suddenly there's nothing that can counter the Brummbar anymore.

This is a bit like the old Firefly. Was the cost fair? Absolutely. Was it annoying as fuck how it would insta-kill mediums; yep.

Elefant damage has to be nerfed slightly so as not to be an assassin (on top of tanking so much damage), and then the cost can get down too.

I don't think the elephant is OP. I think Jaeger armor doctrine is OP with scopes and stuka added to the powerful elephant. Elephant amazing in team games because 90% of the time the opponents don't work together to take it down. A flanked elephant is a dead elephant.

In 3s and 4s this problem just compounds.

I gotta try that hull down ostwind... I've only done it once and I remember Bofors ROF and panther range

Actually Ostwind with hull down damaged t34/85 FRONT ARMOR, and i think more than 50% of his shots.So funny cause i put ostwind near VP and when i won the game i had more vehicle damage with hull down ostwin than his infantry damage.I laughed so much.Ostwind damaging enemy vehicles better than enemy infantry.