Brummbär overperforming

The Brummbär is still a rare sight due to being a T4 vehicle and the 150 fuel usually being better spend on a generalist tanks instead of a sole Anti-infantry assault gun.
However, once it has the needed support it can unfold its full potential.

"Attack ground" is the magic word and here is how it works:
Under normal conditions (no attack ground) the Brummbär will aim at the place of a unit's current position and fire on that place. The unit will have usually be gone by then thanks to the low projectile speed and even when it hits, it will often just hit 1 model (which usually is far away from it's own squadmates).
Using attack ground you can predict the units movement and shoot between them, hitting multiple models at once. This is possible because the Brummbär has almost pinpoint accuracy due to low maximum scatter.
For comparison: Brummbär has 2.5 while the 105mm sherman has 4.80 with lower AoE.
Using teamweapons and cover becomes obsolete and even AT guns die to the 60 range bunker busting charge (1st shot always goes straight into the middle).

Scatter should be normalized.

Incoming:
#nobodyusesBrummbaer
#brummbaerisshit(neverusedattackground)
#alliedinfantryop
#redt3rrorsucks

Spot on.
+1000

It is fine

It is fine

Brilliant reasoning by a clearly battle hardened veteran among us.

The primary issue with the infantry-demolishers class of vehicles is that they tend to overshoot a lot if left to their own devices, which leads to an even greater performance gap.

This makes an entire array of already useful units appear as useless. I've lost the count on how many times somebody has said Brummbar is useless.

Before you judge them, the list of people that complain about the "uselessness" of the Brummbar even include some of the top-most players (perhaps they play too much 1v1 and they never tech up?).

We've addressed this issue with the Stug-E already (its shots are now perfectly centered around the impact point regardless of whether you use attack ground or not), and will be doing it for all infantry demolishers.

On-topic, the Brummbar is OK for its price, and we will be adjusting the competition to its performance.

It's the whole supporting web that comes with the Brummbar (Dive Bomb, Stugs, Elefant) that make it overperform for the game modes you are concerned with, rather than the Brummbar itself. Finally, another issue that heavily skews the perception of Brummbar in these modes are:
- OKW's massively OP repair speeds (try repairing Brummbars with OST Pioneers)
- OKW's overall late-game performance

Ostheer spends the entire game being reactive/defensive; T4 needs to offer the kind of tools that let OST go on the offensive, otherwise OST will be a lame faction to play.

OST infantry can't go toe-to-toe with allied infantry; and you can't force OST to crutch on the MG42 for the duration of an entire game.

The primary issue with the infantry-demolishers class of vehicles is that they tend to overshoot a lot if left to their own devices, which leads to an even greater performance gap.

This makes an entire array of already useful units appear as useless. I've lost the count on how many times somebody has said Brummbar is useless. Before you judge them, the list of people that complain about the "uselessness" of the Brummbar even include some of the top-most players.

We've addressed this issue with the Stug-E already (its shots are now perfectly centered around the impact point regardless of whether you use attack ground or not), and will be doing it for all infantry demolishers.

On-topic, the Brummbar is OK for its price, and we will be adjusting the competition to its performance.

It's the whole supporting web that comes with the Brummbar (Dive Bomb, Stugs, Elefant) that make it overperform for the game modes you are concerned with, rather than the Brummbar itself.

Ostheer spends the entire game being reactive/defensive; T4 needs to offer the kind of tools that let OST go on the offensive, otherwise OST will be a lame faction to play.

Does this mean you will also make the Bulldozer Sherman a bit better for it's 140 fuel price tag?

Does this mean you will also make the Bulldozer Sherman a bit better for it's 140 fuel price tag?

Everything:
- Bulldozer
- M8 Scott
- KV-2
- ISU-152
- Brummbar (shot centering)

Another issue with the Bulldozer is that it has shit penetration. Brummbar can damage tanks that mindlessly try to engage that from the front.

Of course, we're not stupid. We're not going to fix call-in-tied stuff until we are allowed to solve the call-in problem.

Everything:
- Bulldozer
- M8 Scott
- KV-2
- ISU-152
- Brummbar (shot centering)

Another issue with the Bulldozer is that it has shit penetration. Brummbar can damage tanks that mindlessly try to engage that from the front.

Of course, we're not stupid. We're not going to fix call-in-tied stuff until we are allowed to solve the call-in problem.

Nice that you are thinking of adressing the Scott, as well as the Soviet KV2 and ISU152!

But yeah I guess Armor doesn't need anymore buff, so long as it has the M10, it will be widely used.

Actually, the only faction I can conceivably think of suffering vs Brummbar is USF, but that's a USF late-game issue (flimsy Jacksons; complete lack of scout units to provide vision to the Jackson, etc)

@OP vs which faction are you considering the Brummbar to be overperforming, and what kind of support does the Brummbar usually receive (teammates? doctrines? etc).

Everything:
- Bulldozer
- M8 Scott
- KV-2
- ISU-152
- Brummbar (shot centering)

Another issue with the Bulldozer is that it has shit penetration. Brummbar can damage tanks that mindlessly try to engage that from the front.

Of course, we're not stupid. We're not going to fix call-in-tied stuff until we are allowed to solve the call-in problem.

Glad to hear that you guys have more things in the works Fixing units like that is a nice way to inject some life into the game so you see more than the same 3-4 commanders every game unless someone goes non-meta just because.

@OP vs which faction are you considering the Brummbar to be overperforming, and what kind of support does the Brummbar usually receive (teammates? doctrines? etc).

I usually use Brummbär + Elefant - Brummbär counters AT guns and Infantry, Elefant counters tanks. Panzergrenadiers with Schrecks (or later a Panther) counter flanking attempts. Once the enemy can't use tanks effectively he will be forced to send his infantry in first and that's when the Brummbär hits. This setup is pretty much unbeatable on most 2v2+ maps that allow usage of heavy tank destroyers. Regardless the Brummbär will still inflicts heavy casualties, even without a heavy tank destroyer behind his back.

I usually use Brummbär + Elefant - Brummbär counters AT guns and Infantry, Elefant counters tanks. Panzergrenadiers with Schrecks (or later a Panther) counter flanking attempts. Once the enemy can't use tanks effectively he will be forced to send his infantry in first and that's when the Brummbär hits. This setup is pretty much unbeatable on most 2v2+ maps that allow usage of heavy tank destroyers. Regardless the Brummbär will still inflicts heavy casualties, even without a heavy tank destroyer behind his back.

This is a clear-cut case of the Elefant being OP. Try the same strategy without an Elefant commander, and see how that goes for you.

Throw something that can handle infantry decently together with the Elefant and you have an uncounterable strategy for 4v4.

Without the Elefant both Soviets and British have the right (non-doc) late-game tools necessary to dislodge you (SU-85, Katyusha, any non-Centaur British tank).

Well I have to agree here.. in the latest big 2v2 tourney from Currahee I had a longer match vs the very good team c.B. I was constantly using ground attack with my Brummbär, leading to many one shot full squad wipes or killing 4-5 models of a soviet squad with a single shot.

At the end my Brummbär had 169 kills!

http://imgur.com/a/Q8LhE

http://imgur.com/a/FUkLr

I usually use Brummbär + Elefant - Brummbär counters AT guns and Infantry, Elefant counters tanks. Panzergrenadiers with Schrecks (or later a Panther) counter flanking attempts. Once the enemy can't use tanks effectively he will be forced to send his infantry in first and that's when the Brummbär hits. This setup is pretty much unbeatable on most 2v2+ maps that allow usage of heavy tank destroyers. Regardless the Brummbär will still inflicts heavy casualties, even without a heavy tank destroyer behind his back.

It isn't too much of a brummbar issue. You can do exactly the same with ostwinds.

This is a clear-cut case of the Elefant being OP.

Throw something that can handle infantry decently together with the Elefant and you have an uncounterable strategy for 4v4.

Without the Elefant both Soviets and British have the right (non-doc) late-game tools necessary to dislodge you (SU-85, Katyusha, any non-Centaur British tank).

Oh you.

Two unturreted expensive endgame units.

Uncounterable. In 4v4.

Well I have to agree here.. in the latest big 2v2 tourney from Currahee I had a longer match vs the very good team c.B. I was constantly using ground attack with my Brummbär, leading to many one shot full squad wipes or killing 4-5 models of a soviet squad with a single shot.

At the end my Brummbär had 169 kills!

http://imgur.com/a/Q8LhE

http://imgur.com/a/FUkLr

That's because you also used the Elefant commander.

With one shot, half health is gone. Brummbar can somehow penetrate tanks and then they need to run away.

If you think that Brummbar & Elefant is OP, wait till you try Elefant & Hulldown Ostwind, lol. Best thing is that you don't even have to tech and you also get Stugs from the same building.

Guys, it's the Elefant that's OP; not the Brummbar.

It isn't too much of a brummbar issue. You can do exactly the same with ostwinds.

Except following things are not possible with the Ostwind:
- wiping sqauds instantly
- guaranteed model kill with each shot
- can frontally counter AT guns on range 60 (!) thanks to bunker busting barrage.
- survives 4 pak shots
- uneven terrain or fences dont bother the gun
- can shoot over shotblockers

Actually, the only faction I can conceivably think of suffering vs Brummbar is USF, but that's a USF late-game issue (flimsy Jacksons; complete lack of scout units to provide vision to the Jackson, etc)

@OP vs which faction are you considering the Brummbar to be overperforming, and what kind of support does the Brummbar usually receive (teammates? doctrines? etc).

This is why I still Airborne has value for USF, just because Pathfinders fill a niche the entire Army is missing, Elefant and StuPa do really shit on USF already flimsy lategame.

Except following things are not possible with the Ostwind:
- wiping sqauds instantly
- guaranteed model kill with each shot
- can frontally counter AT guns on range 60 (!) thanks to bunker busting barrage.
- survives 4 pak shots
- uneven terrain or fences dont bother the gun
- can shoot over shotblockers

iirc bunker-busting barrage has 80 range.

The point is, with the Elefant commander you can't even use AT guns in the first place. All their veterancy is gone when Dive Bomb is called in.

What you're describing here is the entire Elefant doctrine being OP; not the Brummbar. OST late-game is a completely different story without Elefant commander/JU-87; those other doctrines need the Brummbar to fulfil that role.

And no; USF non-doc late-game is just hopeless; there's no need bringing that faction's name up in a late-game discussion.