Can you please fix the Russian Sniper RELIC?!?

Ntd and I played a game last night against some high level Russian players who understood and admitted during the game that the Russian SNIPER is a BROKEN unit in that it's nigh unkillable and once the Russian player/team builds enough of them the critical mass (especially if the Russians also build SU85s) it's unbeatable. Can't build infantry and cant build vehicles. This has probably been talked about ad nauseum but it needs to be reiterated.

The problems are:
1) The scout car/sniper combo... anyone with decent micro can literally survice the ENTIRE early game DECIMATING german T1 with this and causing a manpower drain and dearth of map control that the German player simply cannot recover from. On top of this on snow maps not only can this combo unit cap points but its impervious to the slowed down blizzard mechanic that plagues German T1. Sniper should NOT be able to shoot out of scout cars. PERIOD.

2) The 2 man sniper squad is imbalanced. There's no point to building German snipers as you need two of them to kill one Russian sniper squad. In fact, the way I see it the German sniper should cost at LEAST 1/2 the price of the Russian counterpart.

I tried building a scout car ASAP last night to help deal with the sniper/scoutcar spam. Its the natural counter... LMAO... one Russian mine later? Yeah.

Have you tried skipping T1 as the Germans? You can get a PzGren squad and a scout car out in under 5:00 doing that.

The German T2 is full of good counters for anything that the soviets can produce from their T1 building, and if you need indirect fire, the mortar half-track is now a 1CP unit.

As to the mine, you were just unlucky. It can happen to anyone, including the soviet sniper car.

Well, even the devs have admitted that sniper mass can be a balance problem, so this isn't entirely irrelevant.

Also, this thread looks at 2vs2 balance. IMO 2vs2 is always going to be some sort of spam fest, in 1vs1 your opponent will get heavily punished for moves like this. I'm not saying they should leave 2vs2 in the dust but team games (as far as I know) were never the major focus of balance patching in vCoh

Also, this thread looks at 2vs2 balance. IMO 2vs2 is always going to be some sort of spam fest, in 1vs1 your opponent will get heavily punished for moves like this. I'm not saying they should leave 2vs2 in the dust but team games (as far as I know) were never the major focus of balance patching in vCoh

On the contrary. Team games exacerbate and emphasize inefficiencies and imbalances MUCH more than a 1v1 does because of the very reason you mention. If Relic were able to balance the game for 4v4s I think you would find a perfect 1v1 experience would result. Because the quadrupled resource income allows for imbalances to be plainly visible, where as 1v1s dont afford such stark contrast.

Secondarily, and von-manstein's point... If the only way to survive a team game against Russians is to ALWAYS SKIP AN ENTIRE TIER please explain to me how this makes sense?!? That's three units that I will never ever ever build? Where's the variance of technique and strategies? The game will cease to be fun with every game becoming a clone of itself. No, what makes RTS challenging and fun is not knowing what you are going to see and conversely being able to have options in how you play. Rock Paper Scissors is a perfect example. How fun would it be if Rock (Snipers) could beat Paper AND scissors?

Secondarily, and von-manstein's point... If the only way to survive a team game against Russians is to ALWAYS SKIP AN ENTIRE TIER please explain to me how this makes sense?!? That's three units that I will never ever ever build? Where's the variance of technique and strategies? The game will cease to be fun with every game becoming a clone of itself. No, what makes RTS challenging and fun is not knowing what you are going to see and conversely being able to have options in how you play. Rock Paper Scissors is a perfect example. How fun would it be if Rock (Snipers) could beat Paper AND scissors?

I don't play team games often (mostly 1v1 automatch), but I am not advocating skipping T1 every time you play as a condition to win.

The reason your assumption that team games are a perfect method to balance 1v1 is flawed is that team games allow unit compositions that are impossible in a 1v1. It's possible based on build order, teching order, and commander choice of each team member to arrive at an optimal force mix that would be impossible to implement in a 1v1 game.

well he gave you an option, one team member skips tier 1

As a person who plays half 1v1 and half 2v2, I can say that snipers are MUCH more deadly in 2v2. Because there is less opportunity to flank in a 2v2, the 1-2 sniper/SU-85 combo can really dominate if used correctly. Also, there is less capping to be done in 2v2, which eliminates another downside to building snipers (lack of capping power). I know it's cliche, but I think this is one of those areas where you can't compare 1v1 and 2v2.

well, sniper spam was an unsolved problem in COH1 as well...they should be more expensive i guess

Another strategy we use to counter an early aggressive sniper spam is to field an even greater number of Grenadiers. You will retain a number advantage throughout the whole game and be able to push the other player off the map. Rush out a 251 and you force them to adapt or lose map control.

Isn't it an idea to allow only two snipers on the battlefield per player? Just like pershing and tiger in coh1.

Isn't it an idea to allow only two snipers on the battlefield per player? Just like pershing and tiger in coh1.

+1

Another strategy we use to counter an early aggressive sniper spam is to field an even greater number of Grenadiers. You will retain a number advantage throughout the whole game and be able to push the other player off the map. Rush out a 251 and you force them to adapt or lose map control.

Problem is all you need is one or two Maxims and all of a sudden the snipers cant be gotten too and will just bleed German manpower.

Even so, its not a problem with the sniper by itself so much as an issue with the Scoutcar/Sniper combo. Why not simply move the Russian sniper to T2? That way it delays the Sniper/Scoutcar to about the same time that the German can have the counter (251). Also it would likely create an opportunity for the german sniper, who would at least have not have the fear of being immediately countersniped... even tho who builds a sniper against 6 mand weapons crews anyway?

Problem is all you need is one or two Maxims and all of a sudden the snipers cant be gotten too and will just bleed German manpower.

Even so, its not a problem with the sniper by itself so much as an issue with the Scoutcar/Sniper combo. Why not simply move the Russian sniper to T2? That way it delays the Sniper/Scoutcar to about the same time that the German can have the counter (251). Also it would likely create an opportunity for the german sniper, who would at least have not have the fear of being immediately countersniped... even tho who builds a sniper against 6 mand weapons crews anyway?

If we moved it to T2, then you would just have the Maxim/Sniper combo become the new meta as you put it. Again, this is where a 2v2 game makes it more difficult. It is rare to see a player build both the first and second building in a 1v1, but in a 2v2 its completely possible. The end result is better unit synergy which is compounded by team work.

My suggestion, try and synergize some of your own units to beat them. A German sniper using attack move can readily counter snipe a Soviet sniper placed in a half-track. You can't give target priority to the Soviet sniper while its garrisoned, meaning it is hard for him to counter snipe you back. That said, I would do this with 2 or 3 Grenadiers acting as a meat shield.

If we moved it to T2, then you would just have the Maxim/Sniper combo become the new meta as you put it. Again, this is where a 2v2 game makes it more difficult. It is rare to see a player build both the first and second building in a 1v1, but in a 2v2 its completely possible. The end result is better unit synergy which is compounded by team work.

My suggestion, try and synergize some of your own units to beat them. A German sniper using attack move can readily counter snipe a Soviet sniper placed in a half-track. You can't give target priority to the Soviet sniper while its garrisoned, meaning it is hard for him to counter snipe you back. That said, I would do this with 2 or 3 Grenadiers acting as a meat shield.

I will try that and get back to you... but regarding the Maxim/sniper meta... it's at least something you can flank early. No matter how good the opponent micros you cant stop being overrun by two flanking gren squads with a sniper and maxim. One well place rifle nade can deal with the sniper at least. The problem is the early map control that the kiting of a scoutcar/sniper provides. I can have 4 grens and a sniper in attack move but it wont make a difference so long as the opponent keeps his distance.

I dont think re-tiering is really necessary, they just need some adjustment.

Possible Solutions:

1) 1 Russian sniper in the squad dies, the other runs off map effectively making it a 1 man sniper squad

2) Another option is reduce the range on Russian snipers so that German snipers can get a chance to counter from farther away.

3) Option 3 would be a cost reduction of the German sniper. I like this one the least.

4) Change armor type on the German sniper to be like KCH or the Officer from COH1 so that it takes 2 shots to kill it (or 1 shot if the sniper is lower than 50% HP) effectively making it = to a 2 man sniper squad.

The biggest issue with the russian sniper is not so much the unit itself, but the fact that they're firing on 4-man german squads as opposed to 6-man russian squads. 2 snipers means insta-retreat for the germans. Also the fact that they are 2-man squads only makes the issue worse.

I think one solution could be that when one of the crew members in the russian sniper is killed, there's a long (5-6 sec) delay before it can shoot again. That way, rushing it is no longer a dicey affair, as killing one member should hopefully force a retreat.

I dont think re-tiering is really necessary, they just need some adjustment.

Possible Solutions:

1) 1 Russian sniper in the squad dies, the other runs off map effectively making it a 1 man sniper squad

2) Another option is reduce the range on Russian snipers so that German snipers can get a chance to counter from farther away.

3) Option 3 would be a cost reduction of the German sniper. I like this one the least.

4) Change armor type on the German sniper to be like KCH or the Officer from COH1 so that it takes 2 shots to kill it (or 1 shot if the sniper is lower than 50% HP) effectively making it = to a 2 man sniper squad.

+1, all solution would be better than never changes the current countersnipe metagame...

The simplest solution of all? Just take away the 2 man squad. That's it. Problem solved. German sniper is fixed too as a result.

In 1v1 i haven't found the russian sniper to be a big issue. Remember that it fires slower then its german counterpart to make up for the squad number difference.

Also, going for snipers means not having mg's. So a sniper is a manpower drain, but the soviet can't really hold ground. So instead of retreating, its sometimes better to just push on and make the sniper have to retreat and take a big portion of the map to gain a tech advantage. A half track is a great addition for this to just keep reinforcing. Keep in mind that the sniper has to kill a hell of a lot of grens to earn its 360 manpower back. Of course this depends on the situation, in some engagements its better to hide behind buildings and hedges, forcing the sniper to advance and therefore be more vulnerable.

Concerning a sniper in scout car, it is hard to kill indeed, but the sniper also gets a 50% accuracy penalty if i remember correctly.

2v2 is a whole other story indeed. Real sniper spam is not only hard to deal with, its just not fun to play against. A simple limit of 2 snipers as i suggested earlier should solve this without any major balance issues i think.