Airborne company

It's a bit difficult to have enough screentime for 3 specialist AI-only units (Pathfinders, Thompson Paras and LMG Paras) that offer zero AT utility, when the faction already has access to the best mainline infantry, and they have no AI issues to begin with.

Recon Company's vision of Pathinders as a utility unit seems more coherent than a "hey, let's strap another AI only unit in the roster" implementation of Airborne. Given that beacons are Paratrooper's main feature, it should be more affordable to field a Pathfinder & Paratrooper mixed army.

For Paratroopers, the simplest change I would make is allow Paratrooper-equipped support weapons to reinforce near beacons.

Pathfinders just need to be cheaper scout units, and provide the utility necessary to complement Paratroopers. I don't know:
- Smoke artillery callins?
- Allow Paratroopers to retreat to Pathfinders (in friendly territory only)?
- Lay mines? (or let Airborne paras also lay mines?)

To make them cheaper scout units that people would use, you would have to lower the reinforce cost to 28-30, popcap to 1 from 1.5 per model, and give them mines and possibly smoke. It would be helpful if they could reinforce from their own beacon. I would not use Paras to lay mines, they are too expensive to use for that. Also, giving them infiltration at 0 CP would make some people really angry.

Lastly, the P47 strafe does have to get fixed to make this commander viable. (See someone's post about this above)

The P47 strafe is actually not far off from where all call-in planes should be. I actually like the idea of having a single pass with a much lower cost and slightly better tracking. If multiple passes are retained the tracking should be improved slightly. For such powerful tools with area denial I prefer that the passes happen just once so the game can move on, and to prevent them getting to snipe away vehicles with little player input.

I like this idea - a cheaper/more accurate single pass would give it more reliability and actually allow you to use it in team games where multiple OKW players make the ability more or less useless if RNG doesn't fall your way. It might also be cool if there was some Pathfinder synergy (like some kind of Mark Vehicle ability that increases the Rocket Accuracy/Damage)

So you are trying to say that infiltration and much better combat stats are completely offset by beacons? Players often use JLI because they're good and cost effective. Pathfinder's reinforce cost and popcap is too high for what they do. They are used about as much as the Greyhound, and for similar reasons.

You are actually mistaken Pathfinder have more PDS then JLIRS that can become even better with rack weapons.

Both squad are recon squad and Pathfinder not only can set up beacons but also come with camo (that helps them spot with impunity) but they also get better sight radius at vet 1 instead of medic kits. JLIRS need to reach vet 2 to get camo.

The infiltration of the JLIRS is mainly useful against a sniper (and even then the sniper can still retreat) since they have very little shock value with their low close range range DPS and luck of a grenades. They are probably the infiltration squad with least alpha strike value.

Both units reinforce with same cost and have some pop.

People don't use pathfinder simply because they do not use the Commander...

Pathfinder and JLIRS are of about equal value.

JLI wipe Pathfinders with 2-3 models left every time. The "premium" is 20 mp (280 vs 300) and 1 cp vs 2 cp is not that big. I'd use Pathfinders much more often if they were a copy of JLI's. JLI vs Pathfinder is anything but balanced.

This is a poor test. You will rarely, if ever see pathfinders and JLI go head to head. What you want to test is how well they do vs opposing main line inf, Pathfinders vs volk and JLI vs Riflemen. Furthermore what you really want to measure is their mean time to wipe a squad, because both JLI and Pathfinders arnt meant to be used head on vs units, but with a meat shield in the way.

Furthermore you don't factor in the fact that pathfinders can have easy access to BARs which is a scalability advantage for pathfinders

My changes would be:

Pathfinders 300 MP, 30 reinforce, 2 CP, can infiltrate from buildings in owned and connected territory. (change this globally for ALL infiltration units) Or keep them at 1 CP and reduce their reinforce cost to 28 and give them Tripwire Flares or something.

57mm At Gun: 3 CP

Make P47 more reliable and lower cost to 200 MU. It should have as much impact as Ostheer Stuka Anti-Tank Strafe after any nerfing/buffing/changes.

I stopped playing Airborne due many of the issues highlighted in this thread. They all felt overly limiting. The big two are pop cap and p47.

The pathfinders are like 2 pop each and although they offer some cool utility, they are pretty junk in most fights. The Airborne are also 2, but they are not junk in most fights (just ober blobs are a problem).

The p47 was really good towards release. A lot of players cried it was OP and it got nerfed to be pretty unreliable. Even a damaged panzer 4 became a struggle and for such a high price. I think I officially lost it when the Stuka got buffed and I watched my first jackson get shredded by it in a single pass, full health, on the move. Most people where ok with it. It was really strange that people where ok with the stuka running wild, but not the p47. Plus it's way cheaper.

You are actually mistaken Pathfinder have more PDS then JLIRS that can become even better with rack weapons.

Both squad are recon squad and Pathfinder not only can set up beacons but also come with camo (that helps them spot with impunity) but they also get better sight radius at vet 1 instead of medic kits. JLIRS need to reach vet 2 to get camo.

The infiltration of the JLIRS is mainly useful against a sniper (and even then the sniper can still retreat) since they have very little shock value with their low close range range DPS and luck of a grenades. They are probably the infiltration squad with least alpha strike value.

Both units reinforce with same cost and have some pop.

People don't use pathfinder simply because they do not use the Commander...

Pathfinder and JLIRS are of about equal value.

Working from memory

More DPS at close/mid range. JLI get more DPS at mid/long range. Carbine vs Kars
Path gets 2 carbines with 40% crit. JLI get's one with 75/80% crit. If it's 80% then it just need 1 hit from Kar to crit.
0.8 vs 1.0 receive accuracy. Because of this, Pathfinders are way more support unless you give them double bars AND they get vet.
JLI end up scaling better through vet.
Commander wise, Pathfinders are there as a single unit to deploy beacons. JLI get access to volley grenade, scavenge and booby trap.

As part of the faction, which is the most important, Pathfinders on their timing/arrival/function are redundant.
You'll have 3/4 Rifles + mortar and eventually an Officer. You then want to add more infantry on Pathfinders, support weapons and/or Paras?


Pathfinders:
-Changed to 0 CP. Start on cooldown. NO infiltration (i don't think the unit needs it)
-Reduce weapon slots to 1.
-Reinforce cost to 0.40 (30mp)
-Increase cd on beacon or make them actually have to build them (IIRC they assemble automatically)

50cal/AT gun:
-Changed to 75muni each
-50cal goes to 2CP (is it already?); AT gun to 3CP

While it may seem cheap, support field operation from UKF is 150muni for a Vickers, UK AT gun (better), med drop and movement n reinforce speed bonus.
Remember that you also have to take into account that you still have to reinforce the weapon (cheapest been RE at 25mp per model, so extra 100mp).

P47:
-I'll rather lower the cost to 200MU rather than increasing the performance (i think it's fine leaving it as mostly an anti heavier tank tool). On the other hand, i'll raise the CAS cost to 220/240MU instead.

Pathfinder Vet up faster than JLI (vet 1 need 660 ) but Path use 680 For Vet2
path small vet bouns and better sight than JLI 50v55 in vet 1

Scouting role vs AI Role

....
Working from memory

More DPS at close/mid range. JLI get more DPS at mid/long range. Carbine vs Kars
Path gets 2 carbines with 40% crit. JLI get's one with 75/80% crit. If it's 80% then it just need 1 hit from Kar to crit.
0.8 vs 1.0 receive accuracy. Because of this, Pathfinders are way more support unless you give them double bars AND they get vet.
....

Since adding the critical makes calculation more difficult (and really has to do allot on how many entities fire on the same entity and the thus the target squad size)with out it:

Pathfinders
m1a1_carbine_paratrooper_mp 9.99 9.17 6.26 4.48 3.28 2.61 2.19 1.83
pathfinder_m1garand_scope_mp 1.82 2.02 2.20 2.38 2.55 2.71 3.34 3.91
totatl 2+2 23.63 22.38 16.93 13.72 11.66 10.64 11.06 11.48

JLIRS
grenadier_kar_98k_rifle_mp 5.76 5.07 4.37 3.82 3.37 3.00 2.60 2.26
jaeger_light_recon_g43 2.19 2.33 2.47 2.59 2.70 2.80 2.77 2.53
total 3+1 19.48 17.56 15.59 14.05 12.81 11.80 10.56 9.32

Pathfinder have more DPS at all ranges.

Vet bonus up to vet 3
Pathfinders
+10% sight range
-20% weapon cooldown, -29% received accuracy
+14% weapon range, +20% weapon accuracy, camouflage stays shortly after leaving

Jaeger Light Infantry Recon Squad
Unlocks the 'Field First Aid' ability
-29% received accuracy, passive cloak
+40% accuracy

By vet 2 Pathfinder weapon fire faster thus generate critical faster and by vet 3 they have more range. JLIRS are tougher and get better accuracy bonus by vet 3 but they do not actually have any significant advantage over Pathfinder.

As for a place in game Pathfinder are great for spotting for mortars, great at sniping model once the mortar hits and can even be used for sneak attack against vehicles if upgraded with bazookas.

On the other hand since riflemen are so cost efficient as other doctrinal infantry Pathfinder seem pale in comparison.

Once more in the current state the squad are about equal.

snip

Thx for the numbers. Been a while and thought was different.

As you say, crit is hard to judge. On isolation, using a single Path against any other unit, it might take a while to get crits but once the enemy squad is damaged, crits might start to get rolling. But combined with other things, the damage might ramp up. On the opposite side is the JLI at 75% (which is huge difference with 80% since it requires 20dmg instead of 16dmg).

For their role, you missed the part where i said basically:
"You'll have 3/4 Rifles + mortar and eventually an Officer. You then want to add more infantry on Pathfinders, support weapons and/or Paras?"

I differ on them been equal. Mostly on RA. This makes JLI combat efficient on their own, while Pathfinders requires screening.

At the end of the day:
JLI (1v1) are been "spammed" and no one dares to pick Airborne or build Pathfinders.

Since adding the critical makes calculation more difficult (and really has to do allot on how many entities fire on the same entity and the thus the target squad size)with out it:
.....

Once more in the current state the squad are about equal.

You can't ignore the crit, which makes JLI hit much harder.

JLI get booby traps, sprint, 15 muni infiltration grenades, and thorough salvage. Pathfinders get beacons. If you think that is equal then okay.

You can't ignore the crit, which makes JLI hit much harder.

JLI get booby traps, sprint, 15 muni infiltration grenades, and thorough salvage. Pathfinders get beacons. If you think that is equal then okay.

Pathfinder have Critical also. They have 2 weapon than can score criticals and they are firing on squad with less entities so they have a higher change of 2 weapon firing on the target and scoring a critical faster.

In addition if upgrade with double bars there is almost a certainty that the the target of the scope m1 will be also receiving damage from another weapon generating criticals faster. Their vet 2 cool-down bonuses also helps them with the criticals. JLIRS hardly have a bonus in critical kills.

Infiltration grenades is not JLIRS ability but a dotrinal ability, thorough salvage also.

Pathfinder get camo from vet 0, mini map spy with beacon, sight range 50->55 at vet 1 making great spotter from start.

Even if JLIRS have an advantage that is too small and counterweight by the fact that they come after a CP.

If JLIRS see more action that has more to do with the fact that they there are in a more attractive Commander and the fact that riflemen are extremely cost efficient than anything else.

Anyway I have explained my opinion with arguments, if they did not convince you its fine by me feel free to have a different opinion.

Um... Yeah. You know how well all said that reinforcing for pathfinders live is at 32, it is actually 37.
The only two squads that I can think of that have it higher are Scout Snipers and Obersoldaten.

FJ = 38
JLIRS = 37
air support officer = 37

FJ = 38
JLIRS = 37
air support officer = 37

For a unit that has a RA of 1 that is way too high.

The unit has also camo, 2 sniper rifles and increased range as vet bonus.

There was a time when Pathfinders with bars was the meta.

Trust me you do not want to make Pathfinders spam-able.

The unit has also camo, 2 sniper rifles and increased range as vet bonus.

There was a time when Pathfinders with bars was the meta.

Trust me you do not want to make Pathfinders spam-able.

Since they have already 2 slot weapons they drop bars like crazy. I am not talking about making them spam-able, they just cost way to much to reinforce. Rifleman still overall out performs them.

Use Pathfinder in conjuration with riflemen. Pathfinder stay far in heavy cover and snipe, riflemen close in, enemy will not waste time firing on the pathfinder.

Or use Pathfinder as spotters for the mortar sniping after enemy units have taken damage from the mortar.

The reinforcement cost is similar to JILRS and it is balanced.

I have been using airborne recently and I think it just needs a few tweaks.

Pathfinders seem ok to me, maybe just a slight reduction in reinforcement cost, and would be great if they could lay mines.

The scouting they provide at vet3 is definitely worth it, use it with camouflage and hold fire to get closer and sneak on unsupported MGs.

As for the rest of the doctrine maybe a manpower reduction on the MG and AT gun drop since it needs to be crewed and bring the AT gun down in Cps comes to late vs the p2 so must always go capt vs OKW.

Paratroopers are fine I tend to use them as replacements for lost rifles.

The p47 needs something, better accuracy vs medium armor and either cost reduction to match its performance or some other buff.

The simplest way to buff airborne is to just drop the manpower cost of the at gun and mg by 100. Suddenly, they are actually cost efficient. I also like the idea of pathfinder mines + smoke + cp0 -- at that point, they would be a nice complement to paras. Mines are nice utility, and they can smoke mgs for your paras without needing to research rifle grenades or relying on the nerfed and sometimes buggy mortar. You can also get them in place of a rifle squad early, which avoids the "I already have enough infantry" issue that pathfinders + paras currently run into. They'd probably need more changes to make their new form balanced, but I think the idea has merit.