Instant garrisoning/ungarrisoning NEEDS to go.
12 Mar 2017, 19:14 PM
#1
Posts: 246
At 32:20... utterly absurd for a strategic/tactical game.
The German player pulls off a brilliant feint, but the machine gun crew teleports out of the building and escapes what should have been certain death.
The simple fact that an entire squad can teleport out of a building to avoid artillery/grenades/flamethrowers/etc., then regarrison by teleporting just as instantly is a clear sign of utterly terrible game design. It rewards twitching instead of actual tactics and foresight/planning, and effectively renders anti-garrison attacks useless.
Why waste munitions or a high cooldown artillery barrage, when there's a 100% chance that the opposing garrisoned squad will escape unscathed because all three, four, five, or even SIX of its members will just magically appear outside the building in less than a second?
12 Mar 2017, 20:34 PM
#2
Posts: 808
he escaped that stuka due to good micro and should be rewarded for it
12 Mar 2017, 20:38 PM
#3
Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17
If we want to get rid of insta-ungarrison-dancing, we need to also get rid of abilities that instawipe garrisoned squads, otherwise nobody will ever use garrisons again.
I understand that garrison-dominance play is at its peak right now, and many people want to see it go. However, there should be a middle between garrisons remaining somewhat important (but not dominating) and garrisons turning into never-use deathtraps.
Feel free to round up all offending units and abilities that instawipe garrisons.
Here's a list idea:
- Stukas (offmap/on-map)
- Most vehicle flamers
- Bundle/gammon bombs vs garrisoned infantry
- Grenade damage vs wooden buildings (insta-collapse)
I understand that garrison-dominance play is at its peak right now, and many people want to see it go. However, there should be a middle between garrisons remaining somewhat important (but not dominating) and garrisons turning into never-use deathtraps.
Feel free to round up all offending units and abilities that instawipe garrisons.
Here's a list idea:
- Stukas (offmap/on-map)
- Most vehicle flamers
- Bundle/gammon bombs vs garrisoned infantry
- Grenade damage vs wooden buildings (insta-collapse)
You have a great idea that improves the QoL aspects of the game? Please, drop your idea here:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/57860/some-qol-suggestions
Check out Cruzz's DPS calculator:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7gwy65JLbSRMEJ3M2ZPandMMW8/view?usp=sharing
(Download the file, open it with your browser)
https://www.coh2.org/topic/57860/some-qol-suggestions
Check out Cruzz's DPS calculator:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7gwy65JLbSRMEJ3M2ZPandMMW8/view?usp=sharing
(Download the file, open it with your browser)
12 Mar 2017, 21:09 PM
#4
Posts: 368
At 32:20... utterly absurd for a strategic/tactical game.
So in your opinion there should've been zero chance for that MG to escape, regardless of how it was played? Every Stuka barrage should guarantee a wipe for units in buildings? Because that guy evacuated pretty much as soon as he heard the Stuka and still barely got away.
12 Mar 2017, 21:17 PM
#5
Posts: 141
^
So in your opinion there should've been zero chance for that MG to escape, regardless of how it was played? Every Stuka barrage should guarantee a wipe for units in buildings? Because that guy evacuated pretty much as soon as he heard the Stuka and still barely got away.
Second this. MGs have a notoriously long time to exit garrisons, so this is a bad example. He has a point though, but Smith adressed it already.
12 Mar 2017, 22:00 PM
#6
Posts: 246
How is this a bad example? The building collapsed. That's what would've killed the squad, not the artillery shell itself. That same building could've collapsed from any number of other damage sources, and the ludicrous escape would've still been just as ludicrous.
And really, that was just the situation that reminded me of this whole issue. It's hardly the most blatant and prevalent scenario.
Grenades in particular are COMPLETELY useless against garrisoned squads, ESPECIALLY non-setup teams, which literally teleport instantly, at the speed of light, rendering grenades -- the primary anti-garrison ability in Relic's tactical RTS games -- useless.
And what makes all this worse is that Relic ALREADY HAS A GAME where they've done this properly: Dawn of War II. Same game where AT guns actually cripple tanks as they should, so that tanks can't hard counter AT guns.
Yet here we have CoH2, years after DoWII, and it's like Relic doesn't even remember making DoWII, judging by these utterly uninformed mechanics design decisions.
And really, that was just the situation that reminded me of this whole issue. It's hardly the most blatant and prevalent scenario.
Grenades in particular are COMPLETELY useless against garrisoned squads, ESPECIALLY non-setup teams, which literally teleport instantly, at the speed of light, rendering grenades -- the primary anti-garrison ability in Relic's tactical RTS games -- useless.
And what makes all this worse is that Relic ALREADY HAS A GAME where they've done this properly: Dawn of War II. Same game where AT guns actually cripple tanks as they should, so that tanks can't hard counter AT guns.
Yet here we have CoH2, years after DoWII, and it's like Relic doesn't even remember making DoWII, judging by these utterly uninformed mechanics design decisions.
12 Mar 2017, 22:28 PM
#7
Posts: 245
Could always make squads take just as long as an MG to leave a building...if somebody has a counter tough shit.. SeemsGood
Also imagine if you could go inside a completely broken houses rubble for cover.. that would be neat change as well.
Also imagine if you could go inside a completely broken houses rubble for cover.. that would be neat change as well.
12 Mar 2017, 22:32 PM
#8
Posts: 3145 | Subs: 2
Agreed, remove bullshit OP one shot killing of infantry inside garrisons and remove the instant garrison and ungarrison.
Make this game more fucking realistic before it's too late and they officially cut development.
Make this game more fucking realistic before it's too late and they officially cut development.
12 Mar 2017, 22:49 PM
#9
Posts: 246
But there is no instant garrison unit killing.
The only time a squad will die instantly in a garrison is if the garrison collapses.
That's a perfectly reasonable mechanic.
Grenades, flamethrowers, and artillery don't instawipe squads in garrisons as long as the garrison maintains structural integrity.
However, a squad being able to teleport out of a garrison, avoiding absolutely all damage from a grenade/flame/shell, then teleport back into the garrison... that's simply wrong, and particularly egregious within the context of DoWII doing this just right, where squads enter and exit garrisons one model at a time.
And if it were done like that (the way it should be), then 4-man squads would actually have a counterbalance to their extreme vulnerability in the open compared to five and six model squads.
But of course, this is all too much logic for Relic.
The only time a squad will die instantly in a garrison is if the garrison collapses.
That's a perfectly reasonable mechanic.
Grenades, flamethrowers, and artillery don't instawipe squads in garrisons as long as the garrison maintains structural integrity.
However, a squad being able to teleport out of a garrison, avoiding absolutely all damage from a grenade/flame/shell, then teleport back into the garrison... that's simply wrong, and particularly egregious within the context of DoWII doing this just right, where squads enter and exit garrisons one model at a time.
And if it were done like that (the way it should be), then 4-man squads would actually have a counterbalance to their extreme vulnerability in the open compared to five and six model squads.
But of course, this is all too much logic for Relic.
12 Mar 2017, 23:07 PM
#10
Posts: 911
Bait/10 either OP is a troll or doesn't know how to interpret what he is seeing.
If one watches the top right unit icons, one can see that the SU player gives the command to exit the building at 32:32. It wasnt instant at all.
If one watches the top right unit icons, one can see that the SU player gives the command to exit the building at 32:32. It wasnt instant at all.
Imagine my playercard is here
12 Mar 2017, 23:08 PM
#11
1 
Posts: 2885
It's not true that there are no instawipe abilities. You can't distribute squad members inside the building the way you like - they always go on the side where the enemy is. There are buildings, like for example near the easter cutoff on semoisky, that have 4 windows bunched together on one side. Squad in these buildings can get wiped with a single granade without collapse, even if they have all models.
I find building mechanics really dynamic and interesting part of game. Infiltration squads are much more of a problem.
I find building mechanics really dynamic and interesting part of game. Infiltration squads are much more of a problem.
12 Mar 2017, 23:34 PM
#12
Posts: 246
Bait/10 either OP is a troll or doesn't know how to interpret what he is seeing.
If one watches the top right unit icons, one can see that the SU player gives the command to exit the building at 32:32. It wasnt instant at all.
Oh, for crying out loud, stop with the tunnel vision. This is one example.
The setup/teardown has nothing to do with the problem I'm outlining. Setup/teardown is an ADDITIONAL delay for setup teams.
The game lacks basic garrisoning/ungarrisoning delay, like what Dawn of War II has: squads entering and exiting garrisons one model at a time.
In CoH2, squads TELEPORT, all at once, out of a building or into it. That is ridiculous and nullifies all anti-garrison solutions completely for non-setup teams, while making setup teams require that much less tactical foresight.
12 Mar 2017, 23:43 PM
#13
Posts: 2272 | Subs: 1
Feel free to round up all offending units and abilities that instawipe garrisons.
Here's a list idea:
- Stukas (offmap/on-map)
- Most vehicle flamers
- Bundle/gammon bombs vs garrisoned infantry
- Grenade damage vs wooden buildings (insta-collapse)
tbh all these stuff doesn't instawipe, but i wish it would. a semi-competent player sees all of this early enough and there should be counters like that to punish lame and campy players.
there are more than enough buildings a stuka doesn't instawipe. also the cost of stuka or the other stuff is high enough to justify its effect
13 Mar 2017, 12:33 PM
#14
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
Grenades in particular are COMPLETELY useless against garrisoned squads, ESPECIALLY non-setup teams, which literally teleport instantly, at the speed of light, rendering grenades -- the primary anti-garrison ability in Relic's tactical RTS games -- useless.
You have to learn to AIM those grenades and see where the models are at. It's not just "throwing a nade in the middle of the building". If you expect micro from your opponent, then you aim it at doors.
The argument that grenades are not been effective against garrison are equal if it would be applied to cover. Units move in and out of it all the time.
Grenades are not the PRIMARY ANTI GARRISON tool. That's flame based weapons and constant indirect fire, basically DoT (damage over time). Grenades are for punishing NON micro.
But X faction doesn't have access to Y tools! That's a problem of the faction design and not the tools.
That been said, I'M IN FAVOUR of adding delays to ENTERING but not EXITING garrisons. Why? Because there are too many ways you could exploit squads sitting around idle at doors (nades, infantry body blocking, wire, crushing, etc).
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
13 Mar 2017, 12:49 PM
#15
Posts: 245
That been said, I'M IN FAVOUR of adding delays to ENTERING but not EXITING garrisons. Why? Because there are too many ways you could exploit squads sitting around idle at doors (nades, infantry body blocking, wire, crushing, etc).
They could exit the other door and if there's only 1 door then you should be able to camp an exit for an exiting garrison. I don't see whats wrong in punishing garrison play. Something thats been kind of deprived from the game aside from mining doors... if they added a balanced delay i don't see how any of that would become a big issue, just long enough so that a flamer tick or any counter play can actually be applied before instantly exiting. Not as long as an MG but a simple small delay.
13 Mar 2017, 13:04 PM
#16
Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17
That been said, I'M IN FAVOUR of adding delays to ENTERING but not EXITING garrisons. Why? Because there are too many ways you could exploit squads sitting around idle at doors (nades, infantry body blocking, wire, crushing, etc).
Actually, that's an excellent middle-ground solution.
My prime beef with garrisons doesn't have to do with nades/etc. It has to do with the fact that you can abuse garrisons, ESL-style, and hop your squad in-out.
You have sturmpioneers creeping up on you from a single-window angle? Just hop in and out with your Tommies. Your Tommies can fire their single shot gun, hop out to reload, and hop back in. In between, Sturmpioneers have minimal to 0 opportunity to employ their DPS.
This will make loading-unloading comparable to transport vehicles. You simply can't abuse this load-unload cheese on transports, even if the vehicle is bulletproof. That delay is the reason for this.
You have a great idea that improves the QoL aspects of the game? Please, drop your idea here:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/57860/some-qol-suggestions
Check out Cruzz's DPS calculator:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7gwy65JLbSRMEJ3M2ZPandMMW8/view?usp=sharing
(Download the file, open it with your browser)
https://www.coh2.org/topic/57860/some-qol-suggestions
Check out Cruzz's DPS calculator:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7gwy65JLbSRMEJ3M2ZPandMMW8/view?usp=sharing
(Download the file, open it with your browser)
13 Mar 2017, 13:37 PM
#17
Posts: 392
This video has proven stuka is an overpowered unit. A katyusha will never be expected to even damage the troops inside the building no matter the player react to leave or not!
13 Mar 2017, 13:49 PM
#18
2 
Posts: 2181
While we're at it, move the top left icon indicating a squad is garrisoned to the top right.
I've never understood why it blocks the hp bar of the squad so you can't see how low your squad is....
I've never understood why it blocks the hp bar of the squad so you can't see how low your squad is....
13 Mar 2017, 13:56 PM
#19
Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1
I agree that garrison teleportation is not the right solution, but the employment of really slow exits, as we had in the past, is inappropriate as well.
The idea of a delay to exit is good, but it should not be applied to weapon teams which already suffer from a delay on entry and a required setup/tear down.
It is dumb that units hop in and out of buildings. Right now a necessary part of the meta at high play, but not good to watch and not really fun from a mechanics approach.
The idea of a delay to exit is good, but it should not be applied to weapon teams which already suffer from a delay on entry and a required setup/tear down.
It is dumb that units hop in and out of buildings. Right now a necessary part of the meta at high play, but not good to watch and not really fun from a mechanics approach.
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