OKW's Current Design Problem: The Why and How

I feel like all that will do is heavily incentivize People to continue to build T4 in their base and just never upgrade the flackHQ, pumping out 1-3 JpIVs and obers for the endgame. Hell if it's cheap enough, Luchs rush into jp and obers will be the meta until the jpIV gets hit with the nerf bat, or just jpIV and Ostwind spam. Also the wait time for building any flackHQ units would be stupidly long. If you wanted to build a pIV, you would have to wait for: 1.) the building to finish 2.) the upgrade to finish 3) the p4 to finish.

Even if I'm wron on my above points,, this still doesn't solve how okw is forced to tech to Flack HQ, or that the panther and JP4 still compete for the same roll. It's like if the stug and panther were both t4 for ost. The JP I've should be moved back to the medic truck and the amount of resources you have to put into each truck should be reduced. Hell if people really want to avoid the old tech system that much, trucks should be made a call-in with a cool long cool down for a much lower price.

1-Moving the JPIV to Med HQ.
What's the point of teching further than that? You are talking about JPIV and Ostwind spam and you are further making it more viable since you just have to get your first tier in order to get it.
It made sense on a low fuel income, no upgrades, OKW. Not in the current version of 100% fuel/muni and upgrades OKW.

2-JPIV vs PV
JP4 is a low profile (harder to hit), 60 range non turreted TD with good RoF and has great veterancy (abusive cloak).
PV is a slugger mobile 50 range tank hunter, with MGs which help to soft deal with infantry. Only thing which suffers is that Comet is OP.

3-T4 starting with half tech and having to upgrade Flak.
A)One of the objective of the change is to make it less harsh losing a deployed Flak HQ and been able to replace it again.
B)Current Obers arrive too late, having issues dealing with infantry till they at least hit vet2. From vet4 onwards they are OP. ATM is more logical to just go with infantry call ins which can scale at the same pace allies infantry arrive. If Obers arrive earlier and can be balanced by the time they arrived, while we are nerfing the late game scaling of allied infantry units (right now Guards, Penals and Rifles. In the future IS/other units), their late game powerhouse could be adjusted.
C)JPIV is only an oppressive unit due to the cloak mechanic which is gonna get fixed. I'm not seeing Stug/JPIV spam OP threads.

4-People are already going mechanized (on 2v2 even more) just to deal with Stuart/AeC or Penals/Maxims.
Even more in the future when we would have vet0 medkits on SP.

5-Building Time
You can cut the deploy time of the truck by half, specially since it won't have from the getgo the Flak.
Construction is faster, you can call and deploy the truck earlier due to cost been lower. PIV times is equal as it's now.

6-

"I feel like all that will do is heavily incentivize People to continue to build T4 in their base"

Building outside the safety of your base sector is an option and a risk you decide to take.

"Even if I'm wron on my above points,, this still doesn't solve how okw is forced to tech to Flack HQ..."

Just like all the factions have to tech in order to get tanks unless they want to rely on call ins. What a surprise!

This will also help standardise for a future in (IF there is a will to do so) which call ins require a certain level of teching in a similar way T34-85s/E8s are atm.

7-KT
In case someone mentions it, KT requirements should be all 3 trucks deployed + flak gun upgrade

USF: they added the mortar cause the only thing you could do was get Rifles and then more Rifles. RE were nerfed to no longer be viable to spam them (i suspect an overreaction to CptSprice strat). The other openings were nerf after been too good. Assault Engineers and Dodge. Pathfinders arrive slightly too late but i'm kinda scared of making them 0CP.

Rak: it's not bugged, it has some bad stats which is kinda compensated by cloak cheese.
Kubel: if you don't like Kubel you don't like microing it. There are 2 scenarios where you Kubel have a hard time: Urban maps (although if you get it to vet1 you'll have a free IR HT) due to MG garrison and light vehicles (M3-Dodge-Bren). Against anything besides Dodge, you have to realise they have too little capping power.
MG34: if it was T0 i don't see why i would open with anything else than Kubel + MG34 and go aggressively to cut off or important strat point.

That's what I said, slight diversity.

And that's again what I said, it's bugged, it shouldn't normally take for enternity to aim and fire and hit the ground constantly.

And finally, I would like to see you actually attempt that, but let's just be clear about it, no Sturms, no Volks, only Kubel and MG34, that's your only opening, nothing else.

Let's see how you will repair your kubel.

That's what I said, slight diversity.

And that's again what I said, it's bugged, it shouldn't normally take for enternity to aim and fire and hit the ground constantly.

And finally, I would like to see you actually attempt that, but let's just be clear about it, no Sturms, no Volks, only Kubel and MG34, that's your only opening, nothing else.

Let's see how you will repair your kubel.

Bad stats =/= bugged

Do you forget that you start with a SP right? 90% of the time early on (2v2) i don't get a 2nd SP and just go Kubel + Volks (unless really heavy urban).

Starting SP rushing house/cutoff followed by Kubel and MG34 for garrison. MG34 (garrisoned) also solves the problem of Bren Carrier and M3 till they have enough munition for flamer. 4th unit is Volk and then either truck or another Volk.
Read carefully before jumping to conclusions: "if it was T0 i don't see why i would open with anything else than Kubel + MG34". Maybe i interpret English differently but OPENING for me means the first units.

only problem with OKW is OKW players. My signature explains this case.

Bad stats =/= bugged

Do you forget that you start with a SP right? 90% of the time early on (2v2) i don't get a 2nd SP and just go Kubel + Volks (unless really heavy urban).

Starting SP rushing house/cutoff followed by Kubel and MG34 for garrison. MG34 (garrisoned) also solves the problem of Bren Carrier and M3 till they have enough munition for flamer. 4th unit is Volk and then either truck or another Volk.
Read carefully before jumping to conclusions: "if it was T0 i don't see why i would open with anything else than Kubel + MG34". Maybe i interpret English differently but OPENING for me means the first units.

I don't believe that the raketen shooting at an enemy unit and hitting the ground is bad stats but alright.

And besides, it would basically be Wehr 2.0 opening, just with a twist thrown in with the kubel and having both your support weapons and mainline infantry in the same building.

And let's not talk about how OKW's support weapons fail in comparison to their Wehr counterparts.

I just tested it today, 2 leigs and 1 mortar, mortar got to lvl 3 while the leigs were either vet 1 or close to vet 2, raketen as we already mentioned is bugged or excuse me, it's stats are fucked up and the MG34 is a sorry excuse for an MG that people just don't want to make T0 for some odd reason because they hate it so much.
Make a mod where the MG34 is Tier 0 and see for yourself that it's not as OP as you might think.

1-Moving the JPIV to Med HQ.
...It made sense on a low fuel income, no upgrades, OKW. Not in the current version of 100% fuel/muni and upgrades OKW.

I know it doesn't work currently. The reason that Ost spam is viable is specifically because of the changed resource mechanics in the first place! OKW should be returned to the state it was in prepatched and balanced from there.

2-JPIV vs PV
JP4 is a low profile (harder to hit), 60 range non turreted TD with good RoF and has great veterancy (abusive cloak).
PV is a slugger mobile 50 range tank hunter, with MGs which help to soft deal with infantry. Only thing which suffers is that Comet is OP.

Although the JPIV and the Panther are different vehicles, they still function as OKW's dedicated heavy AT units. When referring specifically to 1v1s, there is little incentive to go for a panther over a JPIV because the panther's AI is extremely lackluster, and it is significantly more expensive than the JPIV.

3-T4 starting with half tech and having to upgrade Flak.
A)One of the objective of the change is to make it less harsh losing a deployed Flak HQ and been able to replace it again.
B)Current Obers arrive too late, having issues dealing with infantry till they at least hit vet2. From vet4 onwards they are OP. ATM is more logical to just go with infantry call ins which can scale at the same pace allies infantry arrive. If Obers arrive earlier and can be balanced by the time they arrived, while we are nerfing the late game scaling of allied infantry units (right now Guards, Penals and Rifles. In the future IS/other units), their late game powerhouse could be adjusted.
C)JPIV is only an oppressive unit due to the cloak mechanic which is gonna get fixed. I'm not seeing Stug/JPIV spam OP threads.

A) Last time I checked this wasn't in the patchnotes.That aside, doesn't that still screw with the unit timings for all of the tanks in T4? Also doesn't this incentivize building the JPIV over the Panther even more as a heavy AT option?
B)Obers are a problem in their current implementation, but halving the T4 initial build cost isn't the only way to fix that problem. Smoothing out early vet could also provide the power spike that they need to be more competitive.
C) I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding here, in my post I meant to specify Ostwind Spam with the JP, not JP spam. I don't know where you got the "stug" spam from my post, although I do remember seeing threads on Coh2.org specifically consisting of people complaining about the Stug being overly cost effective at high vet.

4-People are already going mechanized (on 2v2 even more) just to deal with Stuart/AeC or Penals/Maxims.
Even more in the future when we would have vet0 medkits on SP.

This is part of the problem! In order to deal with the Stuart/AEC/T70 people go specifically for mechanized to build 1 counter unit, either the luchs or the puma. With the JP in the med truck they have the option of going either for the med truck & the JP or the Mech truck with its associated resource bonuses, and then you could tech to the other building OR the Flack HQ. Does putting the JPIV in the med truck work in the current OKW economy? No! And OKW will continue to suffer from a lack of strategic diversity as long as the current OKW tech system remains in place!

6-
Building outside the safety of your base sector is an option and a risk you decide to take.

No shit its the decision of the player, that doesn't mean that it isn't heavily discouraged. Even if the medic truck would be 1 shot by a t70 its still "the player's decision to put it outside of the base." Right now the vulnerability of OKW's trucks means that the risk simply outweighs the benefit.

Just like all the factions have to tech in order to get tanks unless they want to rely on call ins. What a surprise!

Which was not something that old OKW had to do, and it worked just fine for the faction! The whole point of my original thread post was it was an argument that OKW has systemic design issues from when they reworked the faction, and that the old version of the faction didn't conform to the same tech structure that other factions had to, and it made OKW better for it, despite the issues that the faction had!

An alternative way to balance Pathfinder arrival is make them come at 0CP, but put the ability on cooldown (say 1 minute).

Please God yes. I will take any and every buff for Pathfinders including 32mp reinforce, 0cp, 2 cp and infiltration, or replacing the Lt. in tier 2.

I don't believe that the raketen shooting at an enemy unit and hitting the ground is bad stats but alright.

And besides, it would basically be Wehr 2.0 opening, just with a twist thrown in with the kubel and having both your support weapons and mainline infantry in the same building.

And let's not talk about how OKW's support weapons fail in comparison to their Wehr counterparts.

I just tested it today, 2 leigs and 1 mortar, mortar got to lvl 3 while the leigs were either vet 1 or close to vet 2, raketen as we already mentioned is bugged or excuse me, it's stats are fucked up and the MG34 is a sorry excuse for an MG that people just don't want to make T0 for some odd reason because they hate it so much.
Make a mod where the MG34 is Tier 0 and see for yourself that it's not as OP as you might think.

Rak "can be fixed" by fucking up the visuals and trying to make it shoot from a higher position (IIRC what someone said). The other stats (aiming) are been fixed on WBP.

ISG takes more than double the amount of xp to get to the same vet level as normal mortars.
Mortar: 480/960/1920
ISG: 840/1680/3360
Vet1 is useful (extra range) but unless it hits vet 3 it doesn't gain anything else which improves it's function. And still, most people don't bother with the barrage unless they are hitting mortar pits. So the only useful thing it gets, is at vet5 (lol).
Current (live) vet3 mortars are OP cause they have more range than 120mm or ISG on auto attack and they can achieve it pretty "easy".

If you want to play OH, just play OH. The point i'm trying to make is that i don't think OKW needs a minute 0 MG in order to play the early game. The MG34 been shitty as nothing else than suppression is another subject. Is there space to buff it, probably. But i don't think that would be possible if it was T0, specially with the amount of T0 tools OKW has atm.

Not saying this is ideal change but food for thought at least for a future patch:
-Instead of getting faust after BUILDING a truck (not deploying) make it so that you unlock MG34.
-Increase MG34 damage from 2 to 4 and reduce accuracy instead to keep same DPS against infantry. Increase AoE suppression to offset lower accuracy values.

Now if you want a quicker MG as OKW at least you have to "tech/build", in a simil way SU has to go T2 and old OH had to get T1.

I know it doesn't work currently. The reason that Ost spam is viable is specifically because of the changed resource mechanics in the first place! OKW should be returned to the state it was in prepatched and balanced from there.

That's asking for something which is not gonna happen.

Although the JPIV and the Panther are different vehicles, they still function as OKW's dedicated heavy AT units. When referring specifically to 1v1s, there is little incentive to go for a panther over a JPIV because the panther's AI is extremely lackluster, and it is significantly more expensive than the JPIV.

JPIV is great but it can be circle-strafed. You can't chase vehicles with it and is way more defensive oriented. They fulfil different goals.

A) Last time I checked this wasn't in the patchnotes.That aside, doesn't that still screw with the unit timings for all of the tanks in T4? Also doesn't this incentivize building the JPIV over the Panther even more as a heavy AT option?
B)Obers are a problem in their current implementation, but halving the T4 initial build cost isn't the only way to fix that problem. Smoothing out early vet could also provide the power spike that they need to be more competitive.
C) I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding here, in my post I meant to specify Ostwind Spam with the JP, not JP spam. I don't know where you got the "stug" spam from my post, although I do remember seeing threads on Coh2.org specifically consisting of people complaining about the Stug being overly cost effective at high vet.

A) Was referring to my suggestion. Regarding PV and JPIV see point above and before (cloak fixed).
B)Obers arrive too late. Volks are already got STGs and you could had call in JLI/PF/Falls way before. You are at a point on which is difficult to justify more mp on infantry.
C)Your words: "pumping out 1-3 JpIVs and obers for the endgame". MB on the stug part.

This is part of the problem! In order to deal with the Stuart/AEC/T70 people go specifically for mechanized to build 1 counter unit, either the luchs or the puma. With the JP in the med truck they have the option of going either for the med truck & the JP or the Mech truck with its associated resource bonuses, and then you could tech to the other building OR the Flack HQ. Does putting the JPIV in the med truck work in the current OKW economy? No! And OKW will continue to suffer from a lack of strategic diversity as long as the current OKW tech system remains in place!

IMO you are still thinking with LIVE on mind when there is a WBP coming really soon. Stuart/AEC/T70 have seen their power levels down. Flak HT got some love and can softly deal with light vehicles a bit better, specially with some love to the raketenwerfer.

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Depends on how aggressively you are deploying and heavily on the map (it's a pain in the ass to kill if you put it behind a shotblocker).
The only REAL vulnerable truck is the Flak one, if you put it to cover a VP or cut off. Mech doesn't need to be so much forward and on a heavy indirect fire meta you don't want the enemy to easily be able to bombard your medic HQ.

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Don't be fooled by old OKW design. OKW lived and was sustained by the Volks schreck blob. Remove the schreck blob and the faction fall apart.

Big list of OKW changes:

DESIGN
Make OKW bases mobile, make the infantry design more intelligent, and make light vehicles obligatory.

BASES
Allow OKW bases to pack up during the battle and rebuild elsewhere, at a fuel discount for already researched bases. This comes at slight HP nerf to bases. In addition have bass researchs provide auras to nearby units, such as ability cool down for example. Lastly: Flak HQ must be able to be controlled manually by the player.

INFANTRY
Swap Volks and Sturms halfway: Volks become a cheap 4 man MP44 assault unit that scales well and upgrades to smoke and sprint. Sturms become cheap 5 man utility squad that puts out respectable DPS and repairs very well. Obers become super Grens, gaining Faust and ability to upgrade to single Shrek alongside MG34. Obers moved to BHQ. (Infantry support P4 or Sturm officer takes their place in T4.)

VEHICLE
Kubel price increased and capping removed, ability to suppress returns. 250 Halftrack added to T0 replacing MG34 and Puppchen, but latter is muni upgrade option for it alongside a mortar upgrade. Flaktrack buffed somehow and LeiG made a doctrinal unit.

All what okw needs right now is nerfs to light vehicles, reliable building counter and nerfs to OP allied medium tanks and buff to obers early while getting nerf lategame.

And nerfs to rocket indirect fire -brought in line with katty.

All what okw needs right now is nerfs to light vehicles, reliable building counter and nerfs to OP allied medium tanks and buff to obers early while getting nerf lategame.

And nerfs to rocket indirect fire -brought in line with katty.

Still very stale and all about super aggressive early into light>t4 or call ins

USF has similar issue, OP early and mid but T4 is useless when you have m10/caliope

Rak "can be fixed" by fucking up the visuals and trying to make it shoot from a higher position (IIRC what someone said). The other stats (aiming) are been fixed on WBP.

ISG takes more than double the amount of xp to get to the same vet level as normal mortars.
Mortar: 480/960/1920
ISG: 840/1680/3360
Vet1 is useful (extra range) but unless it hits vet 3 it doesn't gain anything else which improves it's function. And still, most people don't bother with the barrage unless they are hitting mortar pits. So the only useful thing it gets, is at vet5 (lol).
Current (live) vet3 mortars are OP cause they have more range than 120mm or ISG on auto attack and they can achieve it pretty "easy".

If you want to play OH, just play OH. The point i'm trying to make is that i don't think OKW needs a minute 0 MG in order to play the early game. The MG34 been shitty as nothing else than suppression is another subject. Is there space to buff it, probably. But i don't think that would be possible if it was T0, specially with the amount of T0 tools OKW has atm.

Not saying this is ideal change but food for thought at least for a future patch:
-Instead of getting faust after BUILDING a truck (not deploying) make it so that you unlock MG34.
-Increase MG34 damage from 2 to 4 and reduce accuracy instead to keep same DPS against infantry. Increase AoE suppression to offset lower accuracy values.

Now if you want a quicker MG as OKW at least you have to "tech/build", in a simil way SU has to go T2 and old OH had to get T1.

You just gave me an idea, how about throwing in a GrW34 in the command HQ, buffing and making the MG34 into a lesser MG42 at 250 man power, fixing the rakaten or replacing it entirely with a Pak 38 since the fix sounds artificial to me.

Your support weapons are going to be locked behind a support tech similar to the Wehr battle phase.

Not exactly T0 but you will be able to get MG34s earlier than now and you will also have access to smoke with the mortar, and a cheaper and arguably better alternative to the leig.

This is just a wild idea of course, I'm not really pushing for ir, just throwing it out there.

But I think that if a support tech is added it needs to be worth it, I don't wanna pay more for access to shitty support weapons I can't even use.

Still very stale and all about super aggressive early into light>t4 or call ins

USF has similar issue, OP early and mid but T4 is useless when you have m10/caliope

Thats why I and sturmpanther had discuasion with Smith and co. about call ins. I think we all have same opinions about this.

Lock call ins furthure behind CP so they will be either suplement to your army (Cpantha after p4) or last ditch effort - you played your cards bad early on and thus you will risk everything in one card - double oswind once you hit CP instaed of early tech.

This should apply to all favtions.

By these changes we will move calling from first order optimal build to suplemment/ all in units.

Sorry, I often forget to write key things that we already discussed internally

Thats why I and sturmpanther had discuasion with Smith and co. about call ins. I think we all have same opinions about this.

Lock call ins furthure behind CP so they will be either suplement to your army (Cpantha after p4) or last ditch effort - you played your cards bad early on and thus you will risk everything in one card - double oswind once you hit CP instaed of early tech.

This should apply to all favtions.

By these changes we will move calling from first order optimal build to suplemment/ all in units.

Sorry, I often forget to write key things that we already discussed internally

I see what you mean and truthfully it makes a lot sense.

To be honest I just want WFA to be more like EFA, balanced armies where you pick unit composition on commander and play style that are more about careful strategy and maximizing economy. (Picking a muni sink commander as Sov OR laying demos/mines for instance.)

WFA I feel less like I'm exploring a faction and more building OP units in a linear path.

OKW is fine, so is Ostheer, they are simply in the shadows of their more powerful counterparts. The only things not being fine is the horrible Ostheer Panther and the overpowered Command Panther and Jagdpanzer IV predator cloak.

OKW is fine

No it´s not. Once allied units get balanced to ostheer counterparts, you will see how OKW is OP.

Pfuss spam, vet5 volks, vet4 obers, command panther, kingtiger, lights,p4, sturmtiger,kubel and more.

It just feel weak right now because allies have so much cheese.

No it´s not. Once allied units get balanced to ostheer counterparts, you will see how OKW is OP.

Pfuss spam,

They are OK. They are balanced when we consider their timing and upgrade cost.

vet5 volks,

A bit on the OP side true, but not as insane as PPSH-Cons or their allied counterparts.

vet4 obers,

Late game tier 4 unit tasked with dealing with vet3 2xLMG units.

command panther,

This thing has the accuracy of a ancient Ballista and costs almost as much as an IS2/Pershing. All types of Mark target abilities are cheesy, including the soviet one, especially when combined with Button.

kingtiger,

It is easily penetrated by anything that isn't an M-42, costs a fortune and it can't attain vet either.

lights,

Which have been nerfed in the WBP.

p4,

OP or UP?

sturmtiger,

Might be a tad inexpensive.

kubel

I agree it needs a rework and should cost fuel. Same thing about the Bren Carrier.

...

You didn´t get the point :

!No it´s not. Once allied units get balanced to ostheer counterparts, you will see how OKW is OP.Hector

It was all about saying how OKW is strong compared to ost, not to current allies

You didn´t get the point :

!No it´s not. Once allied units get balanced to ostheer counterparts, you will see how OKW is OP.Hector

!Did you mean those mentioned units are OP? Or they are balanced and don't need any further buffs?Jack Dickolson

OKW is stronger in certain areas, but harder to maintain and get there, if you know what I mean.