Pz.Kpfw. VI - Tiger

i actually didnt remember it 100% correctly, real numbers are 320 for panther, 300 for tiger, so my argument still holds true

additionally, the pershing often can be called in earlier because usf can ignore major and just play with inf, at-gun and stuart, while ost desperatly needs to tech t3

Why exactly do you think tiger should have better frontal armour than panther? Real panther had better frontal armour than real tiger (when you take angle into consideration). And panther has absolutely useless rear armour to compensate. Pro tip: ptrs units are generally useless in late game, but they deal loads of damage to panthers if they flank it.

As for the pershing stall, why exactly would anybody do that? Ostheer T3 has everything it needs to counter such strategy. It has p4 to kill the stuart, ostwind to bleed your manpower before pershing and stugs to kill the pershing when it arrives. How is it better choice than getting a sherman asap and wiping the hell of ostheer 4 men squads.

additionally, the pershing often can be called in earlier because usf can ignore major and just play with inf, at-gun and stuart, while ost desperatly needs to tech t3

This will be much harder with WBP now.

Why exactly do you think tiger should have better frontal armour than panther?

reality aside, tiger should be eating shots like nothing else. and its not striclty speaking front armor but front*half side, and the tiger had much better side armor than the panther and additionally a better armored turret i think

As for the pershing stall, why exactly would anybody do that?

if you can bleed the enemy in the early i believe its viable to just play rifles +at-gun, bleed him more and let him build a (up to pershing) useless pak which further increases his bleed. as every tactic it depends on the situation

Repairs don't need any buffs. The game is too fast as is.

Nerf all repair speeds that warrant it and add some much needed immersion back into a game where entire squads of soldiers teleport in/out of buildings and the 222 is inexplicably not an armored car.

needed immersion back into a game where entire squads of soldiers teleport in/out of buildings and the 222 is inexplicably not an armored car.

You mean tanks didn't just ricochet off of thin air and bounce backwards for no apparent reason in WW2?

Also, I don't know if anyone remembers Generals Zero Hour, but what was cool about that is big tanks could just outright run over smaller ones. P4 run over clown car monster truck style please.

Correct, in terms of game data, the Pershing is treated like a "heavy" medium tank (800 HP) like the Panther, T-34/85 and the Comet. It is supposed to be a better Panther while being a threat to infantry like a heavy tank - a role which it performs well. If you want to use it like a Tiger, you will be disappointed of course, as it can't take as much of a beating.

That said, the Pershing actually works out better as a generalist tank, despite the lower health pool. It is overly mobile, well armoured (same frontal armour as the Tiger, a big WTF-point if you ask me, especially as the Pershing has the mobility to entirely negate the lower rear armour), high penetration (more than the Tiger). On top of that, even the higher reload is negated at vet 3, as the Pershing has a whooping 0.5 modifier to reload speed at that point, which amounts to a faster reload speed than the Tiger at vet3.

This is almost the same as the comparison between Tiger and IS-2: The Pershing starts out a tiny bit worse than the Tiger in very few areas and massively better in others, and gets significantly better with veterancy while the Tiger gets moderately better. The difference is, that the Tiger can take more of a beating, which doesn't change with veterancy - this doesn't negate its downsides, which is why the Pershing actually works in its role.

TL;DR: Compared to its counterparts in other armies, the Tiger is bad. And it gets even worse with veterancy, when its counterparts actually get some decent buffs, while the Tiger gets barely enough to not be considered laughably shitty.

Here comes the "Capture point" vet1 ability for is2

i actually didnt remember it 100% correctly, real numbers are 320 for panther, 300 for tiger, so my argument still holds true

additionally, the pershing often can be called in earlier because usf can ignore major and just play with inf, at-gun and stuart, while ost desperatly needs to tech t3

You can play with paks, pz grens and thier shreks and wait for a tiger.

Here comes the "Capture point" vet1 ability for is2

That is indeed a point, but considering the superiority the IS-2 initially has (which is only increased after vet1), as I described above, it doesn't make much of a difference, except that it allows the Tiger to actually survive to gain that veterancy. The thing is, the Tiger in its current form has to rely on Blitzkrieg to do anything, while the IS-2 can work as it stands - that doesn't mean that the IS-2's capture ability is suddenly good and should be left as it is right now, but if Blitzkrieg saw a much needed rework during the rebalancing of the Tiger, the IS-2 wouldn't suddenly be a sitting duck anymore than it already is.

I also explained above, that the IS-2 is a unicorn for a good reason - it's just that the Tiger is even worse. Both should see some sort of rework, but with the buffs the IS-2 got over the past two years (while the Tiger didn't even get half of that) makes the IS-2 objectively the better tank.

I also explained above, that the IS-2 is a unicorn for a good reason - it's just that the Tiger is even worse. Both should see some sort of rework, but with the buffs the IS-2 got over the past two years (while the Tiger didn't even get half of that) makes the IS-2 objectively the better tank.

The Tiger received the same changes as the IS2 on the last 2 years plus the increase on range at vet0. They both got their popcap reduced, CP increased, penetration increased, rear armor reduced.

They are equally good/bad with the difference that there are more Tiger doctrines, therefore you see it much frequently.

The Tiger received the same changes as the IS2 on the last 2 years plus the increase on range at vet0. They both got their popcap reduced, CP increased, penetration increased, rear armor reduced.

They are equally good/bad with the difference that there are more Tiger doctrines, therefore you see it much frequently.

You are flat out wrong. The IS-2 got several armour buffs that the Tiger never saw (both started out with the same frontal armour, while the IS-2 by now is on the level of the King Tiger), the IS-2 had a lower reduction of its rear armour. When the Tiger's vet0 gun range was increased, the IS-2 got a previously non-existing vet2 gun range-buff that negated the Tiger's buff. The IS-2 over the past couple years had several changes to its AOE and accuracy profile, resulting in a much better performing tank. It got several penetration buffs.
Not to mention that there is absolutely no proof that the Tiger is used more often than the IS-2, so even that claim of yours is dubious at best.

Do you even read the changelog thread (on the official forums) before you post your answers?

P.S.: I posted an in-depth explanation in this very thread why the IS-2 is superior to the Tiger. There is factual, objective, mathematical proof for you. I don't expect much, but the minimum politeness of actually reading what I wrote when trying to make me look dumb would go a long way to not make an arse out of yourself.

While I have no numbers on it, I´m pretty sure the Tiger gets used more often than the IS-2. Not because of the Tiger being the "better" vehicle but simply because - as was mentioned - there are two IS-2 doctrines while there are four or five (if you count the Ace) that offer a Tiger. Also the IS-2 doctrines mean you have to skip Guards which are meta.

The Tiger especially suffers from the Comet meta. If you face Panthers with your IS-2, you can simply support it with anti tank guns while the Comet will annihilate vehicles, crew weapons and infantry alike.

While I have no numbers on it, I´m pretty sure the Tiger gets used more often than the IS-2. Not because of the Tiger being the "better" vehicle but simply because - as was mentioned - there are two IS-2 doctrines while there are four or five (if you count the Ace) that offer a Tiger. Also the IS-2 doctrines mean you have to skip Guards which are meta.

The Tiger especially suffers from the Comet meta. If you face Panthers with your IS-2, you can simply support it with anti tank guns while the Comet will annihilate vehicles, crew weapons and infantry alike.

One of these IS2 doctrines also has t34/85s, so why bother with the IS2 as a first later game tank.

You are flat out wrong. The IS-2 got several armour buffs that the Tiger never saw1 (both started out with the same frontal armour, while the IS-2 by now is on the level of the King Tiger), the IS-2 had a lower reduction of its rear armour.2 When the Tiger's vet0 gun range was increased, the IS-2 got a previously non-existing vet2 gun range-buff that negated the Tiger's buff.3 The IS-2 over the past couple years had several changes to its AOE and accuracy profile, resulting in a much better performing tank. It got several penetration buffs.
Not to mention that there is absolutely no proof that the Tiger is used more often than the IS-2, so even that claim of yours is dubious at best.4

Do you even read the changelog thread (on the official forums) before you post your answers?

P.S.: I posted an in-depth explanation in this very thread why the IS-2 is superior to the Tiger. There is factual, objective, mathematical proof for you. I don't expect much, but the minimum politeness of actually reading what I wrote when trying to make me look dumb would go a long way to not make an arse out of yourself.

Before reading forward, mind you that i answered you previously from what i remembered. When i check the changelog, i had to go back into APRIL 2014 (BEFORE WFA was released) to see any mention of armor been changed1. I think we can both agree that is irrelevant, heck 2 years ago changes is even stretching it since several things had changed. Those armor "buff" were done with a completely overhaul of the IS2 (remember it used to get 240dmg with a 9s reload and changed it to +6.5 and 160dmg). It also had 960 HP and crap penetration compensated by deflection damage. Calling those changes in isolation is just manipulating the information.

Before any further confusion or nitpick is done, i interpret your comment "over the past 2 years" as 2015 onwards.

https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/67/coh-2-changelog/p3

-KT saw it's armor reduced to IS2 level, not the other way round
-Tiger / Tiger Ace / Panther / King Tiger and the Blitzkrieg Ability (nerf)
-Super Heavy Call in Vehicles limited to 1
-Prioritise vehicles
-All heavies get an increase CP of 2 Points
-Tiger Population reduced from 24 to 19
-IS2 Population reduced from 24 to 19
-Tiger Penetration increased from 180/200/220 to 200/220/240
-Tiger range increased from 40 to 45
-Wehrmacht Tiger & Tiger Ace rear armored reduced from 180 to 140
-Soviet IS-2 rear armor reduced from 205 to 140 2
-IS2 Scatter offset adjusted to match other vehicles.
-IS2 Penetration increased from 250/220/190 to 250/230/210

3They always had that gun range buff at vet2 which put them at 50 range. The change to the Tiger was a buff at vet0, moving some part of the veterancy bonus. Both units converge to the same point.

Unlocks the 'Secure Mode' ability
+50% weapon rotation speed, +25% range, +20% accuracy
-30% reload, +20% rotation speed, +20% speed, +20% ac/de-celeration

Unlocks the 'Blitzkrieg' ability
+5 range, +20% accuracy, -20% scatter
-30% reload, +20% rotation speed, +20% speed, +20% ac/de-celeration

4
https://www.coh2.org/news/57846/tournament-statistics-allied-meta
https://www.coh2.org/news/57812/tournament-statistics-axis-meta

From the few times i see games, i barely see people choosing it or even having it on the loadout.
Shock frontline (5th) and Armored assault (6th) were picked 7/5 respectively and there were 10 IS2 fielded. In perspective, Guard Motor was picked 26 times, Partisan 11 and Mech support 9.
Mech assault was picked 48 times (1st pick), lighting was picked 5 and Elite 3. 23 Tigers and a sigle Ace were fielded.

From my limited 2v2 experience, i barely seen Shocks/IS2, when we are living the Penal dream nowadays. Regarding tournament play this is what i found:
https://www.coh2.org/news/56975/the-nmc-cup-s02-recap-statistics

I don't expect much, but the minimum politeness of actually reading what I wrote...

TL;DR: The IS-2 is considered shit, while compared to the Tiger the IS-2 is superior and gets even better with veterancy while the things the Tiger is good at don't get better at the same rate. How that is supposed to give both units a way to perform uniquely yet properly while justifying both vehicles costing the same can only be understood by Relic.

Which i don't agree with. Not saying that the Tiger or IS2 is better than the counterpart. After buffing it's vet 0 performance, IMO, i'll say that they are balanced asymetrically to each other.
IS2 still has it drunk main gunner which has edges against 4 man OH squads when RNG is on your side (or when they are against a wall, since IIRC it tends to overshoot). This is offset with steady damage from their HMG gunner. Not as great against OKW.
Tiger get's a more consistent performance AI wise, with RoF and scatter but it's less "1 full health squad" shot wipe.
AT performance, there's few tanks you would need a higher pen. IS2, ISU, KV2 (not commonly seen), Pershing and Comet. The first 3 are barely seen and the other 2 relies more so in manoeuvrability than on their armor (Comet OP).
For the IS2, it helps when facing PV, Tiger or KT but that's not the default unit to get when facing those units. Besides matching an OH Tiger head to head on 1v1, the scenario where you want an IS2 is mass Puma/Stug-E/PIV, specially if you are stuck with T3.

AND this is all talking about the units in isolation. When we consider the meta, non doctrinal units and what commanders they are part of, i'll consider the Tiger been in a better spot (not because of the unit per se). Reason? Explained before with the meta commanders and more so in teamgames.

the problem is not the tiger I but the repair speed of the pioneers.feels like i spend more time reparing the tank after small engagements than using it.

the problem is not the tiger I but the repair speed of the pioneers.feels like i spend more time reparing the tank after small engagements than using it.

The same for the IS-2, it comes at the end of the game when almost no longer needed and most is under repair