Lol shocks.

snip

What you say is correct (10 range) and is the IDEAL but it's not feasible to maintain in game even for the top players.
It's a micro sink wanting to stay at 10 range all the time instead of just "hugging" people at 0-5. You have to understand that the 10 non drop off dps is basically there to not go overboard with insane sword DPS and later can't hit shit at longer still short ranges. We have already been there.

What you later address is mostly your subjective desires for the game which i think are valid and could be tried but in the current state of Relic i don't think its worthy to spend time trying to rebalance weapon dps profiles just for the sake of "it's more logical".

What you say is correct (10 range) and is the IDEAL but it's not feasible to maintain in game even for the top players.
It's a micro sink wanting to stay at 10 range all the time instead of just "hugging" people at 0-5. You have to understand that the 10 non drop off dps is basically there to not go overboard with insane sword DPS and later can't hit shit at longer still short ranges. We have already been there.

What you later address is mostly your subjective desires for the game which i think are valid and could be tried but in the current state of Relic i don't think its worthy to spend time trying to rebalance weapon dps profiles just for the sake of "it's more logical".

It not matter of logical only, it is matter of constancy also.

Smgs should have similar characteristics across the board so people to use them the same way regardless of the unit.

Good luck playing in-game with consistently wondering if your units are in range 0-10 for only obtaining a mere advantage.

So in other words, armor is slighly better vs LMG, but at the same time useless vs HMG and mounted MGs, which makes in obsolete mechanism.

Youre ignoring the fact that if youre taking damage from a HMG, youve already dun goofed, and walked into a HMG. In what situation, for shocks would it be advantageous to take less HMG damage. While they sit in open ground and slowly crawl up to get pinned? Plus shocks have a smoke nade, so its not like they are overly vulnerable to HMGs

Furthermore MG34 is shit tier, so why are you worried about it doing damage to armoured shocks?

Actually no. If you move closer then 10 you opponent will increased DPS while you will not. If your opponent moves back you can follow him and you still have an advantage because Shock have some of the best modifier for firing on the move.

Again Shock DO NOT have face hug opponent to have good DPS, they have one of the highest DPS from range 10.

You are assuming that approach of shocks are at the same speed as retreat of infantry. If your opponent soft retreats this is fine you can keep up, but Elchino has already pointed out the insane amount of micro this requires. However, most players as shocks get close will hard retreat, which means that they will rapidly outpace you. In this case being as close as possible at the first shot is the best solution and one of the reasons to close with shocks to 0 range.

You also should keep in mind that at 10 range, you are talking about a single model. The nearest model maybe at 10, but you have a six man squad. To get the most out of their DPS you need all models to be below 10 range. The only reasonable way to do this in most situations is to again face hug.

In theory you don't need to face hug, in practice, with multiple layers you do.

Please stop with the powercreep. Shocks were good before penal buff and they are still very tanky. Let's have the Penal nerfed to were they should be and shocks will become again a real choice.

Before penal buff I didn't see much of shocks, it was all guards. After penal nerf I expect the same or nearly so. The buffs I was proposing mostly addressed the lame vet 1, which hinders scaling correctly, and their DPS, which is ignorable at all ranges over 10.

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In theory you don't need to face hug, in practice, with multiple layers you do.

There is difference from:

Shocks just don't make sense right now, with their late arrival, lack of AT, and miserable damage at all ranges other than face hugger.

(to which I responded, since Shock have one of the highest DPS at ranges from 10->0) and that in practice one has move to "face huge".

And I am not sure what your problem with that is, Smg should be used at close range (1-10) leaving s room for assault rifles to be used at mid (10-20).

In addition Shock unlike other units have very high DPS on the move, they will do lots of damage while moving from range 10 to range 0.

There is difference from:

(to which I responded, since Shock have one of the highest DPS at ranges from 10->0) and that in practice one has move to "face huge".

And I am not sure what your problem with that is, Smg should be used at close range (1-10) leaving s room for assault rifles to be used at mid (10-20).

In addition Shock unlike other units have very high DPS on the move, they will do lots of damage while moving from range 10 to range 0.

The issue here is the difficulty in using shocks. For such a premium unit they sure don't feel premium. If our goal is to leave room for assault rifles we could easily reduce the price of shocks. Right now a unit with a huge premium and no ability to merge is just not going to be attractive.

Last thing here is that if a range is very rare, i.e., 10m, for infantry to fight in, then having a unit dedicated to this makes for very niche use. Since shocks are scattered amongst the commanders I would like to see them be more useful.

We are not talking about making them all carry 1919's.

The issue here is the difficulty in using shocks. For such a premium unit they sure don't feel premium. If our goal is to leave room for assault rifles we could easily reduce the price of shocks. Right now a unit with a huge premium and no ability to merge is just not going to be attractive.

Last thing here is that if a range is very rare, i.e., 10m, for infantry to fight in, then having a unit dedicated to this makes for very niche use. Since shocks are scattered amongst the commanders I would like to see them be more useful.

We are not talking about making them all carry 1919's.

That is simply because Penals, Riflemen (dual weapons), IS (dual weapons) and ST44 Volksgrenadiers are OP.

Obers come allot later, are more expensive, need a weapon upgrade and are not more cost efficient then shocks.

It imo that units, not being used, should not be buffed but units that mostly used to be nerfed.

The longer fight last the more tactical they become and the less RNG.

I really don't see the issue with range 10 thou it the range that the "point blank" mechanism and any unit attacking another in cover should move that close to negate the enemy cover bonus.

Smg should be designed to be good firing on the move and at close distances (0-10).

People don't spam shocks as much they used to, because partidans and the ppsh upgrade do the job much better, often beating much more expensive squads.


Nerf those and shocks will be back into action.

Shocks need uraa or sprint at vet 1 they will be fun to use

Actually, regarding received accuracy vs armour, it's not so clear cut.

Received accuracy is better vs:
- Kubelwagen MG (Penetration)
- MGs (which have penetration > 1); especially incendiary rounds
- Luchs/FlakHT/FlakHQ, which are mostly accuracy-based

Armour is better vs:

There's a whole range of weapons that don't have the focus-fire property. I.e., these weapons roll an additional hit-roll if they fail in their original hit-roll. This means that received accuracy affects incoming DPS in a non-linear way with respect to those weapon times.

This is part of the reason why certain squads (e.g., Panzergrenadiers) are so much better at killing retreating infantry (modifier < 1). This is also the reason why offensive modifiers don't translate to direct DPS increase (I mean, Ambushing PGrens are monsters, but not to the level that +50% increase would imply; they are already monsters at the appropriate range without the modifier).

On the other hand, if a shot does hit but fails to penetrate, there is no hit-reroll. Thus, armour changes affect incoming DPS linearly (assuming that the penetration of the offending gun was already smaller than the original armour value).

Thus, armour will perform a bit better vs the following weapon types:
- BAR
- STGs
- non-enginer SMGs (I don't remember what sturmpioneers have)

There is such great mess in game files ...

That is simply because Penals, Riflemen (dual weapons), IS (dual weapons) and ST44 Volksgrenadiers are OP.

Obers come allot later, are more expensive, need a weapon upgrade and are not more cost efficient then shocks.

It imo that units, not being used, should not be buffed but units that mostly used to be nerfed.

The longer fight last the more tactical they become and the less RNG.

I really don't see the issue with range 10 thou it the range that the "point blank" mechanism and any unit attacking another in cover should move that close to negate the enemy cover bonus.

Smg should be designed to be good firing on the move and at close distances (0-10).

STG 44 volks are not overperforming.

Obers are more cost effective, but they need vet. Obers suffer right now from not being powerful enough on arrival, and over performing if you manage to get them to vet 5.

The changes I suggested are very, very slight buffs to shocks. Each one would help their power curve be more even. The problem with requiring them to get to range 10 is that they are not able to do so. They need to be able to do so with good micro. Extending their range slightly will help make them more versatile (here we are talking about 5m).

We don't need many buffs on shocks, just a couple of tweeks to make them a high end premium unit.

STG 44 volks are not overperforming.

Before the patch that removed P.shreck from VG, people though that VG blobs would be replaced by SP blobs. They did not, because MP44 volks are able to handle most allied infantry adequately and they overshadow most OKW infantry. MP44 upgrade is no brain upgrade that increase the mid and close DPS at no cost other than not being able to picking up weapons. Leaving 1 squad without the upgrade solves that issue.

Obers are more cost effective, but they need vet. Obers suffer right now from not being powerful enough on arrival, and over performing if you manage to get them to vet 5.

They might be if one was able to vet them to 5 but usually that is not the case, or at least in time frame that infantry fights are dominant.

The changes I suggested are very, very slight buffs to shocks. Each one would help their power curve be more even. The problem with requiring them to get to range 10 is that they are not able to do so. They need to be able to do so with good micro. Extending their range slightly will help make them more versatile (here we are talking about 5m).

We don't need many buffs on shocks, just a couple of tweeks to make them a high end premium unit.

Shock have smoke grenades and can move close with good micro. Extending their DPS to 15 would mean the MP44 units or MP40 units would lose to rifle infantry at long range and to smg infantry mid to close making them rather useless.

Imo smg are meant and should remain weapon for close combat 0-10 and not mid 15. If smgs infantry fail to move to that range changes should be made to allow them to achieve that range easier than buffing their mid range DPS.

The thing with Shocks is that they're really only effective against infantry squads with LMGs and bolt action rifles. So... Grens. Pgrens with their StGs make it a whole lot harder for shocks to just march into direct fire and win the engagement.

But they are great for clearing MG42s, PAKs, and mortars. They are the definition of the kind of squad you want for that job. So I feel like they are very clearly strong and particularly balanced against Ostheer.

But then once you look at OKW, you find that OKW has StGs falling out its arse. This puts Shocks in a rather poor position. Because of that mid range power of StGs, Shocks can't close the distance (though they still got smoke) without taking a lot of damage. This is highlighted by how MP40s on pios and assault grens are still absolute fodder for Shocks. It's all about that mid range and their ability to close. (If volks had a full-squad mp40 upgrade instead of 3 StGs we wouldn't be having this conversation, IMO.) Needless to say, Shocks can still do incredible damage if they can get in close without being focus fired or pull off a flank or ambush.

However, it is worth noting that panzerfusiliers and JLI are pretty good meat for them though. (Be wary of wounded shocks against JLI though with their sniper crit.) They're both doctrinal and 2 CP though, so their timing is at least balanced. (But then again Soviets usually much more dependent on commander choice than OKW @ 2 CPs.)

So: Shocks are in the realms of balance against Ostheer. OKW's laundry list of issues makes them a tough faction for effective Shock usage.

The thing with Shocks is that they're really only effective against infantry squads with LMGs and bolt action rifles. So... Grens. Pgrens with their StGs make it a whole lot harder for shocks to just march into direct fire and win the engagement.

But they are great for clearing MG42s, PAKs, and mortars. They are the definition of the kind of squad you want for that job. So I feel like they are very clearly strong and particularly balanced against Ostheer.

But then once you look at OKW, you find that OKW has StGs falling out its arse. This puts Shocks in a rather poor position. Because of that mid range power of StGs, Shocks can't close the distance (though they still got smoke) without taking a lot of damage. This is highlighted by how MP40s on pios and assault grens are still absolute fodder for Shocks. It's all about that mid range and their ability to close. (If volks had a full-squad mp40 upgrade instead of 3 StGs we wouldn't be having this conversation, IMO.) Needless to say, Shocks can still do incredible damage if they can get in close without being focus fired or pull off a flank or ambush.

However, it is worth noting that panzerfusiliers and JLI are pretty good meat for them though. (Be wary of wounded shocks against JLI though with their sniper crit.) They're both doctrinal and 2 CP though, so their timing is at least balanced. (But then again Soviets usually much more dependent on commander choice than OKW @ 2 CPs.)

So: Shocks are in the realms of balance against Ostheer. OKW's laundry list of issues makes them a tough faction for effective Shock usage.

Pretty spot on analysis.

I'll add that (as i said before) OH is basically relying on sniper play and 222s while OKW goes most of the time for mechanized play (P2). It's not a good time to be a Shock squad.

I find shocks to be pretty reliable on urban maps where they can pop out from around corners or use smoke.

With OKW I generally feel that the veteran status of the Voks is the big decider. But I haven't put real research into that, it's just how I feel from engagements.

Pretty spot on analysis.

I'll add that (as i said before) OH is basically relying on sniper play and 222s while OKW goes most of the time for mechanized play (P2). It's not a good time to be a Shock squad.

I would definitely agree. If it was only EF armies, then shocks would be fine, countering grens and support teams, and being countered by snipers, vehicles, and pgrens. But then you have OKW, who, like ZombiFrancis said, have Stg44s on everyone and their freaking dog, and not many support teams to boot. So it's sort of an odd situation. I feel like they could at least use a cost reduction in most areas though.

I find shocks to be pretty reliable on urban maps where they can pop out from around corners or use smoke.

With OKW I generally feel that the veteran status of the Voks is the big decider. But I haven't put real research into that, it's just how I feel from engagements.

Definitely true, but its also worth noting that even assgrens will be effective if they just pop out on top of the enemy squad's heads.